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-- Are DJ's Musicians?
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quote:

Originally posted by keith909 Well I believe that (good) DJ's posses some of the talent/understanding of music to be able to do what they do.. but I don't think DJ'n in it's self needed enought of it to qualify them as muscians.. In the context of Electronic Dance Music it is only the producers that can called themselves muscians (as well as composers). And they are only being musicans if they are A: Playing a keyboard on stage or B: Playing a keyboard in the studio as part of the recording process. So I guess that make me a musican! hehe

Who in EDM would you call a composer? Composer, in my mind is a term that is only given to 'gifted' musicians. A composer, isn't a peice of paper or certificate, it's a term given to someone who knows how to compose music.

Someone like Beethoven (sp) was a composer. The guy was deaf, yet could write something down and know exactly what it'd sound like.

To me a composer is someone who has an idea in his head, can translate that perfectly to paper, then have it played/created and sounds exactly as it did in his head. I don't know of ANYONE who can compose a track perfectly in his/her head and have it sound 100% how they thought. Most people have an idea, write it down (or play w/ the instrument), and either refine their idea or add to it(or they can only get a melody, not a whole track, nor a whole symphony).

Musician, yes, Composer, no.

---djway_thought_ppls?

quote:

Originally posted by j�c� ive had the debate of electronic music production vs acoustical music production endless times - theres NO end to it!

You're wrong, in the digital world there is an end; the sampling frequency. Digital sounds REAL good (I'm a BIG fan of digital), but there's still a sampling limit/buffer that maxes out. Analogue doesn't have such limits, which are (almost) unaudiable except for a 'feeling' and even that's not always But on a purley technical level, the difference is 1 has a restricition in frequency and the other doesn't. Whether or not what you can live without the Analogue depth is up to you, but you can't say there isn't an end to the discussion. (Here comes the Digital V Analogue/ Vinyl vs Mp3/CDJ arguments again )

--djway

quote:

Originally posted by djway but you can't say there isn't an end to the discussion.

thats what I was refering to

oh yeh, and as for DJs being musicians? I think not.
however, that means fuck all to me really

quote:

Originally posted by j�c� however, that means fuck all to me really

hehehehe my thoughts exactly! I dont bother getting into such arguements with people, there is no way that they are going to persuade me and vice versa!

"You believe whatever you want to believe"

quote:

Originally posted by S_madis "You believe whatever you want to believe"

Ok, cool, and what's that for you?

quote:

by Avus, in regards to Avus - Real. Lyrics originally from Bill Hicks I just think its interesting to see how people act on their beliefs(know what I mean) your beliefs are jsut that they're nothing but how you've been taught and raised that doesnt make them real thats why I always recommend a psychadelic experience

--djway

at the end of the day face the facts DJs= JUKEBOXES i hate to say it but its true.

Interesting discussion.

By "DJs," are you including hip-hop DJs and turntablists who create new melodies simply be scratching? Does this count as music production?

quote:

Originally posted by lethal Let me put what you guys are saying into layman terms (correct me if im wrong!) Your only a musician if you create new music... Thats pretty much what you guys are saying right? 1) Doesnt that mean that people in classical orchestras playing beethoven or tchaikovsky are by your definiton not musicians? They are after all playing someone elses music - written and composed centuries ago by great composers.

nice. u'v got me in a bundle.
but i'm going to see if i can worm myself out.

i'v neva really given a great depth of thought into the definition of a muso, so let's get pedantic maybe. [tis subjective tho, lets not forget] what's a musician to you? is it somebody who simply plays an instrument? or is it somebody who understands music. somebody who has the ability or at least understand how to use the barest of musical elements [not whole tunes. notes or sounds] as a form of language, to express what he/she feels at the time.

somebody who plays an instrument and replicates people's compositions, i personally do not consider - to my definition, a musician, as you do not necessarily need an understanding of how to make music, to play the music. i used to play the piano for a good 5 years and i played the guitar for 2 years. i did not have to know squat of how scales were related, why certain melodies worked and some did not, chord progressions, nor did i know that phrygian type scales produced dark and brooding moods. not that you are required to know such things to make music. great musicians (beatles, hendrix, emmanuel?) didnt even know how to read music, but they had a natural gift in understanding what worked/what didnt and why. ppl who plays covers, and other's music, do not prove this ability.

ok, what about symphony orchestras u ask? yup. they're playin other's music but, they are musicians because, lets not fool ourselves, to get to such a platform, you need to understand music. its not a high school play.

quote:

Originally posted by lethal 2) How does this differ from a dj? Hes playing someone elses music and in fact by your previous definition he might be considered a greater musician because hes changing the music (no 2 dj sets are identical after all (even ones with the same tracklisting) with each dj doing ever so slightly differnet mixes, one could add an effect here or increase the length of the mix here, etc....) where as a classical orchestra practices so that their playing is identical each time with no change to the music.

see above. a dj is even worst, because he doesn't use the barest of elements. he uses whole productions to express himself. and there are only so many ways to execute a mix. shall i bring it a phrase earlier? later? i have three options. shall i bring in the percs first? or the bass line? or maybe the frequencies around the 1k area first. the only musical thing with djing is harmonic mixing, and not even all djs do that.

i dont think the latter point is true either. each symphony orchestra will have their own interpretation of the music, n hence play it a diff way. when composers first wrote their music, i assure you they didnt intend for it to be played by gazillion instruments at the one time.

quote:

Originally posted by lethal 3) Since when has the skill required to play an instrument ever been a definiton of a musician? Does learning how to play a double bass make you a better musician then someone who plays a classical guitar just because its harder to learn?

good point. its not.
but hell, a classical is more impressive than a bass. =p

quote:

Originally posted by lethal 4) Since when has the quality of the music being produced/played defined if someone was a musician??? Fuck i mean Ringo Starr was considered a musician and you cant get much fucking worse for a drummer!!!

it wasnt. it was used to differentiate between a good musician and a bad one.

wanted to eleborate further on point 3, but i gotta jet out.
maybe tomorrow!

cheerio

dj's = scam artists
producers = geeks

Wade and JayKuE are pretty much on the ball.

People are getting confused with the terms "Composer" and "Musician".

If you want to get down to the point, a musician is someone who simply plays music through a raw instrument. Are decks an instrument? Not really since the Dj is playing a source of sound and all he/she can do is manipulate it. Sure a musician can play somebody else's music BUT they have absolutely total control when playing. If they wanted to add a trill and improvise a bloody cadenza in a particular passage then they can - where as your "stock standard DJ" can't really add he's own melodic synth-pad or riff to a particular part of a track.
Then we have electronic artists who have live performances e.g. Junkie XL, Chemical Brothers, Prodigy etc. They are musicians because they have total control - they are producing sounds on the fly and can do whatever they want with those sounds. The source of the sound is not fixed.

A composer is someone who writes the music. Pure simple.

You have people who can compose really well, and @ the same time play really well - you can call those people anything you like cause their skill does not need a god-status under their name - they don't care, they LIVE for music and that is all that matters.

Both terms are over-rated.

great post JayKuE

sums up my thoughts exactly

quote:

Originally posted by djway Ok, cool, and what's that for you? --djway

good question! I seriously have no idea!lol I know one thing though, it has something to do with electronic music (of most soughts) and lots of chemicals

Nice response Jaykue!

As i said i dont really have an opinion but its always good to stimulate debate....

Let me just sum up what i think your saying again (please correct em if im wrong!):

A musicican is someone who understands how to create music and has complete artistic control over what they play....

Sound about right??

By that defnition i can see how djs wouldnt be counted as musicians, but what about turntabilists? they create their own music and have complete artistic control and would have to undertsand the music for it to sound at all good....

And on another topic - Are DJ's Artists if not musicians???

quote:

Originally posted by lethal As i said i dont really have an opinion but its always good to stimulate debate....

My thoughts exactly

--djway

i need a beer.

quote:

Originally posted by lethal Nice response Jaykue! As i said i dont really have an opinion but its always good to stimulate debate.... Let me just sum up what i think your saying again (please correct em if im wrong!): A musicican is someone who understands how to create music and has complete artistic control over what they play.... Sound about right?? By that defnition i can see how djs wouldnt be counted as musicians, but what about turntabilists? they create their own music and have complete artistic control and would have to undertsand the music for it to sound at all good.... And on another topic - Are DJ's Artists if not musicians???

i think i mentioned before that turntabilism, personally would be an exception. they do have control of what they do, taking mere loops/beats/samples to create their own rhythms and grooves on the spot.

djs, artists? yea, why not. its a craft you inject a degree of creativity into yes?

nice hole poking tho fence sitter =p

quote:

Originally posted by [ groovypants ] Wade and JayKuE are pretty much on the ball. People are getting confused with the terms "Composer" and "Musician". A composer is someone who writes the music. Pure simple. You have people who can compose really well, and @ the same time play really well - you can call those people anything you like cause their skill does not need a god-status under their name - they don't care, they LIVE for music and that is all that matters. Both terms are over-rated.

thats getting pretty technical. but why even separate a composer to a musician? i would assume that a composer is a subset of a musician. otherwise it would simply be like somebody who is able to write a novel without being able to read?

Though what about being able to read but not write a novel?

actually...

Hmmm.... I guess this is where the "understanding" that you've mentioned comes in.

Good call.

For me, I've always thought that a muscian is someone who just plays for a living where a composer is dedicated to writing music. To the extreme of the particular path.


A lot of people here are mentioning classical music - here's something interesting and would like to hear everyone's opinion [though slightly off topic]:

Conductor vs. DJ - same concept?

i think john cage is and interesting person to bring into this. obviously known as a composer but he uses turntables in his compositions (first person to do so) does this make him not a composer or a musican because he used a turntable? Of course not... if your playing covers in a band or you're djing just for the fame/money/drugs/sex then you're just a jukebox. If you live the music you're a musican. I've been singing for quite a long time and until this year i didn't know anything about how scales worked, how to compose anything i just followed the notes(or tried to!) i was given to sing.

quote:

Originally posted by DynaFire i think john cage is and interesting person to bring into this. obviously known as a composer but he uses turntables in his compositions (first person to do so) does this make him not a composer or a musican because he used a turntable? Of course not... if your playing covers in a band or you're djing just for the fame/money/drugs/sex then you're just a jukebox. If you live the music you're a musican. I've been singing for quite a long time and until this year i didn't know anything about how scales worked, how to compose anything i just followed the notes(or tried to!) i was given to sing.

I DJ and I can tell you I don't do it for any of those reasons, I do it for the love of the music and I find it fun.
I do actually understand about scales and how music works etc as I used to play the flute.

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