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Im a minority....im left handed

EXACTLY psychosematica

Whats interesting is that the same people who fought against segregation in the 60s are the same ones who want it now. The only difference is that this time they would be the ones now benefitting.

I think there are pros and cons to the two sides in this case. Really hard to judge these kinds of issues.

I know in the US, where I go to school, a major issue nowadays concerns the problems going on with "Affirmative Action". I guess basically if you want to improve equality and diversity, you accept students based on ethnic minority quotas. However, minorities complain that they are then being accepted not based on their academic merits but rather, mainly because of their race (i.e. University of Southern California which has something like 25% Asian population). On the flip side, if schools don't use "affirmative action" they accept students solely based on their academic merits. And consequently, in areas like "the South" where it is statistcally shown that African Americans make up the majority of the lower end of the socio-economic range, there are students who may be qualified but simply do not have the money to afford college. And you get a school where the minority population is significantly lower than the local statistic.

So like I was saying earlier, sometimes even if the use of racial stats benefits people, some people don't like it, as seen with USC students who actually started boycotting the school after being accepted and finding out that "affirmative action" was instilled in the application process.

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Originally posted by starsearcher Canada has also rediculous immigration rules...no wonder US is pissed at Canada...the immigration laws just make no sense. It's basically saying - Smart educated people from developed nations, wait in line and maybe if youre lucky and pass all the test we'll take you...uneducated people from the third world that don't have much to offer - please come in! Unfortunately I've witnessed that with my own eyes too many times

This is just not true, don't know where you got this from. If you go investigate the "formula" used to give prospective immigrants "points", it takes into account all kinds of things such as facility with English|french, number of kids (Canada's future), money (capital to be invested in Canada), and education.

It is true that the education part of the formula is not always what it should be. For instance, despite the big doctor shortage, being a physician will NOT help you get immigration, it has no "points". My aunt from Iran is a well known Oncological Gyenecologist in Tehran (with subspecialty fellowship from Australia) and she is immigrating to Canada as we speak, but had to show money with proof of investment in business in Canada to qualify, rather than based on her medical expertise!

But, for the most part, it probably makes sense to take into account the various factors in deciding which immigrants will be able to contribute to the future of Canada. A couple with several small children but no directly relevant education is much more valuable to the future of Canada as that's several children who will grow up to become productive members of society at a time when all the rest of us will be struggling to support the huge senior citizen population. So these things are not that simple to judge.

As for equal opportunity, being an immigrant myself, I agree that it is reverse discrimination. But the problem is that unless you somehow increase the number of minority people in positions of influence, the current inequality will probably never fix itself, because as humans we are inherently NOT unbiased. Complicated issue for sure.

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but had to show money with proof of investment in business in Canada to qualify, rather than based on her medical expertise!

exactly...I don't see this being a necessary requirement...and you'll be surprised about the rules...There is a huge immigration wave from Iran here nowadays...but it's much harder to get in for many other citizens of developed European nations.

Besides i'm an immigrant as well and I know what my mom and I had to go through compared to some of the others.
At our citizenship ceremonies 70% of the people didn't even speak any english!!!!!!!!! WTF is that??? we had to pass tests to even get in!

And what you described may have been true for you and for many others...but I don't see how you can explain the many immigrants that come here and live in near poverty from sri lanka and etc crammed 100 into 1 house . Surely they didn't have investment, education, or even the ability to speak english...I just heard some bad stories about that

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Originally posted by starsearcher exactly...I don't see this being a necessary requirement...and you'll be surprised about the rules...There is a huge immigration wave from Iran here nowadays...but it's much harder to get in for many other citizens of developed European nations. Besides i'm an immigrant as well and I know what my mom and I had to go through compared to some of the others. At our citizenship ceremonies 70% of the people didn't even speak any english!!!!!!!!! WTF is that??? we had to pass tests to even get in! And what you described may have been true for you and for many others...but I don't see how you can explain the many immigrants that come here and live in near poverty from sri lanka and etc crammed 100 into 1 house . Surely they didn't have investment, education, or even the ability to speak english...I just heard some bad stories about that

well, there is a difference b/w someone claiming asylum as a refugee and others just seeking immigration (i.e. from developed countries). separate set of rules apply to each - the latter, the so-called point system and the former - canadian immigration laws (as however flawed they may be) and international refugee law (i.e. non-refoulement - the prohibition to send an asylum seeker back to the country of origin if there is a 'possibility' of persecution based on 5 specified grounds, or a 'possibility' of torture, inhumane treatment or a threat to life and personal security.

^^^ Yeah I guess...but it makes no sense sometimes, it's discrimination again -> what makes one person a refugee and another an immigrant? Why should this one be taken and the other spend so much time and money on the process...that's what i mean.

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Originally posted by starsearcher ^^^ Yeah I guess...but it makes no sense sometimes, it's discrimination again -> what makes one person a refugee and another an immigrant? Why should this one be taken and the other spend so much time and money on the process...that's what i mean.

because one is in genuine need of protection whereas the other may just seek immigration for other reasons. i understand your point, but you can't compare the two. you need to deal with each individually.

Well define need for protection...I don't think you need to be chased by someone or have your life threatened to be classified as a refugee...as far as i understand you can just arrive at the airport and say i'm claiming refugree status...

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Originally posted by starsearcher Well define need for protection...I don't think you need to be chased by someone or have your life threatened to be classified as a refugee...as far as i understand you can just arrive at the airport and say i'm claiming refugree status...

you're mixing up the two concepts of an asylum seeker/ refugee and an immigrant:

here something to read up on:
http://www.unhcr.ch/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/home?page=PROTECT&id=3c0762ea4

Check the Questions and Answers section especially


Article 1 of the 1951 International Refugee Convention defines a refugee as

A PERSON WHO IS OUTSIDE HIS/HER COUNTRY OF NATIONALITY OR HABITUAL RESIDENCE; HAS A WELL-FOUNDED FEAR OF PERSECUTION BECAUSE OF HIS/HER RACE, RELIGION, NATIONALITY, MEMBERSHIP IN A PARTICULAR SOCIAL GROUP OR POLITICAL OPINION; AND IS UNABLE OR UNWILLING TO AVAIL HIMSELF/ HERSELF OF THE PROTECTION OF THAT COUNTRY, OR TO RETURN THERE, FOR FEAR OF PERSECUTION.

that's the basis to work with.

Gotcha....but i still think it's contraversial...IMO it's very easy to take advantage of this and I still don't think the system works properly. I'm sure there are some political/financial benefits involved for those who are running the show I highly doubt that a lot of the stuff that is done by the government is done purely for the benefit of Canada -- I guess we have enough governmental scandals going on now to look at.

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Originally posted by starsearcher Gotcha....but i still think it's contraversial...IMO it's very easy to take advantage of this and I still don't think the system works properly. I'm sure there are some political/financial benefits involved for those who are running the show I highly doubt that a lot of the stuff that is done by the government is done purely for the benefit of Canada -- I guess we have enough governmental scandals going on now to look at.

and that I don't disagree with! politics and money are always the biggest obstacles to overcome.

Yeah...I saw this story once on CBC how some politicians specifically rally during their elections towards low income immigrants and then work on bringing more of them here so that those increase their vote...as in vote for me cause i'm for bringing you all here...pretty scarry

ah well...

ah man. it's all one big mess! don't worry, i'm working on it!

HEY! where's the article on BSC!?

HAHAHA I couldn't find it on their website but just for you i'm gonna come home tonight and write it out here promise!

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Originally posted by dEsidEL don't worry .. things are getting better in Markham and RH ..

Ummm... LOL... What can I say, you pick workplaces in areas dominated by one type of people, and you are bound to have lots of the majority of locals working there.

Markham has the second highest population density of Asians in all of North America I believe (might be just Canada).

The highest is Richmond B.C.

But that's a little off topic.

The reality is people are hired for a number of reasons. And regardless of skills it is much easier to be hired if you resemble the interviewer, or the interviewer can relate to you easily. This transcends simple colour of skin, but goes so far as to include accent, mind set and grasp of english. Unfortunately since the majority of immigrants (regardless of skill) don't necessarily have a perfect grasp of North American culture and mind set, it makes it harder for them to get a job. And I believe that is far more relevant to the matter than skin colour/look etc...

Personally I'm for the "hire the best person for the job" and screw PC!

I honestly don't care if you're male/female/asian/white/black/indian/middle eastern/etc... I just want the best/most skilled/trained person working whatever job it is they're working.

I'm pro equality, but I don't believe in racial equality etc, I believe in objective personal equality. If you can't hack it too bad!

Now this can lead to trends, but I don't think there's anything wrong if one group of people happens to perform better than another (as long as those people weren't hired simply because of what they are), it's up to individuals to make their own way.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 The one statement i am about to make almost entirly erases any arguement that can be given for equity programs. applications for jobs thats state "ONLY MINORITIES NEED APPLY" is no different than fountains and enterances in 1950's Alabama that said "WHITES ONLY" To say that it id different is also racist because you are applying different standards to different people based on their race. This is the basic definition of the word itself. You admit yourself that this is a quick fix and its purely political. Double standards is not the politics that we should be playing. There is NO excuse for ANY racist policies in this country.

"only minorities need apply" is not a true form of employment equity, I would argue...just as Cuba or the old USSR were not pure forms of communism, for example. As I said, true employment equity would be that if you have all white workforce, and now you have a white and minority candidate applying for the position, both qualified, you should hire the minority. You're not applying different standards and hiring inferior people, simply because they're minorities.

The argument becomes, "well, minorties were screwed over before...now white people are being screwed over...isn't that just as bad?"

yes and no. yes, because, as you point out, some employers take it too far. no, because "the system", on the whole, still favours white men. You can't possibly be suggesting that EVERY employer is passing over EVERY white male candidate in favour of women and minorities, lol.

Like I said, it's a quick(er) fix of a systemic problem...but what would you suggest is better? The notion that all employers will just suddenly start to hire people based strictly on their skills and completley ignore the colour of their skin is an absolute farce.

Equality is a farce...people's circumstances are NOT equal...that needs to be recognized. I'm not saying employement equity programs are the ideal solution...far from it...in fact, I think many programs are improperly implemented...I'm just debating the other side and saying that the programs are not devoid of any merit whatsoever.

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Originally posted by dEsidEL it's been proven time and time again that biological races don't really "exist".. unfortunately people often still judge a book by its cover..

Nonsense. That's called "junk science."

Well, it was a lot easier in the 50s and 60s when all the Brits came over and everyone fit in. I can't stand affirmative action or employment equity...it's fundamentally racist. As a white, anglo saxon male in Canada, I represent the group most persecuted because of race and sex. I'm all for equality, but Canada in particular has gone way too far. As I said in another post, this country is obsessed with political correctness. Take the firemen or police examples...if a woman cannot meet the physical expectations, she shouldn't be a cop. I was pulled over the other day by a female cop (they're all bitches for some reason), who was a pretty blonde, about 5 feet tall and 100 pounds. I don't care how much training she's had, I could still knock her on her ass.

As much as I admire Trudeau as a politician and a leader, it was his administration that really initiated these policies of high immigration and the beginning of what is now employment equity. He opened the doors in the 70s and they haven't been shut since. If I agree with the Conservatives about anything, it's less immigration and higher military spending. Not that I have anything against a lot of other races, but I think it's far to easy to gain access to this country and exploit its benefits. My one friend for example...they came here in 1984 from Lebanon...they live in a government funded complex, are given a food allowance and he gets full OSAP coverage. Meanwhile, his jobless father scurries off to Europe working under the table and doing business scams.

Now...how is that fair when I, as a Canadian citizen, born in this country, cannot get any OSAP because my parents make more than 50 grand? As much as I love Canada...this country can REALLY be fucked up in many ways.

I just read today that in some ridings in Quebec, it is in writing that "men need not apply" for Liberal nominations. Yet someone above mentioned that the "system" still favours white men? Id argue that its the complete opposite today.

2 wrongs dont make a right. All this is doing is causing a lot of ill feelings amongst the white community who oddly enough are the strongest voices for TRUE equality in today's society.

I honestly think that the majority of racism stems from a group profiling themselves.

Although it is a painfully stereotypical example.

If you don't want the police to pay attention to you, then perhaps it is best not to draw undue attention to yourself, and once the attention has been drawn, don't call them pigs... They really don't like it.

ie don't be loud and intoxicated in public. Don't start fights in public, and don't randomly scream at the police...

Mind you this only covers the topic of police, but as far as I can tell most people who attract police attention deserve it. To top it all off, they're just doing their jobs, if you made their lives easier they might be less ornery. (Note: aside from what some people believe, the majority of police join the force to help people, they aren't paid enough for it to be any other reason)

I agree with what you just said but in a different context. I think that people who want to be steretyped are the ones that become it. It has now become acceptable for minorities to say "lower the bar and accept me because im a poor such and such coloured person." Whatever happened to them wanting EQUALITY and saying that they were EQUAL?

You know, what distresses me the most about ignorant comments like these is the fact that I see them here, in a forum where I would expect more understanding and clarity of thought, but I'm obviously wrong about my high thoughts of people on TA. As sad fact that it slowly becoming obvious to me.

DJ Smitty: Funny the story about the lebanese immigrants that (assuming your story is accurate) are taking advantage of the system. I wonder what your thoughts are on the generations of Canadian born welfare families. But, of course, it is because the others are immigrants "easily gaining access to the benefits" of Canada that they are taking advantage. The point is, your comments are more discriminatory than you seem to realize (or at least I hope so). I too don't agree with the OSAP policy (because high income earners already pay more taxes), for example, but it's funny that you don't complain about the government only giving full OSAP to children of low income families in general, instead you're upset about the immigrants getting this benefit. I'm sure if we only had immigrants from nice, civilized, white countries like the UK, we'd never have any such problems. That stupid Trudeau.

For the record, Canada does not accept immigrants simply out of the goodness of the white Canadian's hearts. It was and still is a purely economically driven policy. Without immigrants, Canada would go bankrupt. Simple as that buddy. Immigrants either bring investment into Canada, or contribute to the workforce paying taxes and supporting a system which would otherwise fail due shrinking population (not counting immigration) and growing percentage of senior citizens. Any abuse of the system by some bad apples among immigrants is the same as bad apples born in Canada, but overall immigration is by far more beneficial for Canada.

As for the white man being the most persecuted, what a bunch of bullshit. At the next TA meet up, why don't we have a chat and exchange some stories of racism to see how bad you've had it.

Also, you clearly have no concept of what it's like for someone to immigrate to a totally new place, and how difficult it is to make a respectable life for yourself and your family, even if it's to a great country like Canada. Wow, I really didn't think this level of ignorance still existed.

If I've misunderstood the comments, then accept my apology and clarify please.

PartyHarlequin: So does this mean that the negative attention the rave culture has received is all our fault? So, it's my fault that I can't mention my most cherished hobby to many who surround me out of fear of consequences because of the inevitable conclusions that will be taken if I say I go out dancing all night to trance?

Come to think of it, maybe the time when I was stopped by Toronto police during the Gulf War when I was walking on my merry way to classes at U of T was my fault too. If I had only shaved during exam time and tried to look less middle eastern I'm sure they wouldn't have done that. What a bad immigrant I am.

My problem is purely with double standards. Minorities and women need only apply is plain wrong. I want true equality based on merit and not based on descrimination. I dont care where people come from or what they look like and neither should jobs and organizations when they are hiring people.

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