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-- What makes Bush a Good or Bad leader
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Why Bush is bad:

1. He lacks Charisma (far opposite of Clinton)
2. He is a terrible speaker
3. He doesn't give enough press conferences or connect with the people enough
4. He doesn't visit other countries enough and have meetings with other leaders
5. He took too many vacations at the start of his term.
6. He promises millions to Africa in AIDS aid when we have bigger issues at home to deal with.
7. He doesn't show enough outrage over an American being beheaded.
8. He doesn't speak up like a leader should in rough times.
9. John Ashcroft
10. Debt and too much spending (though it's reasonable in our current time of war)
11. Pandering to illegal aliens and giving citizenship to illegal alien Mexicans in order to get more votes. Not taking a tough stance on strong boarders.
12. Who is Dick Cheney and why is he so invisible???? The ghost vice president.

Why Bush is good:

1. Tax cuts
2. He seems to have good moral values and tries to do what is right
3. He isn't as corrupt as Clinton was.
4. Sucessfully removed Saddam Hussain from power and has took us to War in Iraq with only a 1% loss of life on our side while mostly destroying one of the worst regimes in modern history.
5. Sucessfully took over Afganistan and continuing to hunt the enemy.
6. Sucessfully averted an unknown number of terrorist attacks since 9/11. and has been sucessful in protecting America and it's interests.
7. Colon Powell
8. Condi Rice


Would I vote for him? No.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes Bush a Good or Bad leader

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Simply put, your post stated that anyone who votes bush is either A) ultra-religious, B) Stupid, or C) corrupt. That isn't elitist?

As with all topics here, opinions and cases are subject to interpretation, would you not agree?

In looking back at what igottaknow stated:

quote:

1. His most dedicated base, the Christian right, will vote for him no matter what he does, just as long as he keeps pushing Christian values, laws, judges, and faith based programs. That's a pretty large chunk of the country. Can you say bible belt (Midwest and the south)? It's like asking someone to change his or her religion because of a bad priest, it ain't going to happen. 2. Another key constituent, big business, who has received so many favors, taxes breaks, and deregulation, they must be having wet dreams thinking about reelecting him to a second term. The corporate employees who fear losing their job if preferential treatment is reduced will also vote Bush. 3. Oh let's not forget about that average Joe personality that dumb people just can't get enough of. If Clinton proved anything personality trumps all. Ever since the invention of TV people have wanted a movie star for president. Just think of three of our most popular presidents: JFK, Reagan, and Clinton. 4. Finally let's not forget we love a president who makes us feel patriotic and tough. Hell we've got an action hero who speaks in one-liners. Didn't you hear he's going to rid the world of 'evildoers'! Who knows Arnold Swarzenagger might be our next president.

One could also interpret his points in the following manner:

1. The Christian right has fundamental beliefs and an unshakeable notion to vote for someone who shares similar beliefs (or in this case, pretty much identical beliefs). True or false?

2. Big business has benefited a great deal from Bush's economic plan, and they'll likely support and lobby hard for his re-election as a result. True or false?

3. Personality goes a long way, esp. for those individuals whom are unwilling to invest enough time and effort into politics. These "dumb" individuals have a tendency to vote for that individual who carries himself well, regardless of viewpoints in some instances, such as for Clinton, Reagan, and JFK. True or false?

4. President Bush and the bulk of Conservatives ARE playing the patriot card ever since 9/11 (one might conclude overplaying the card). Mr. Ashcroft telling us that we are unpatriotic if we do not fully support the Patriot Act was quite enough for me personally. The black/white version of George "with us or against us" Bush set the tone quite clearly, and unfortunately those far-right radio pundits have taken this to ridiculous new heights. True or false?

I'll grant you, #4 is a bit partisan, but I'd venture to bet that a number of conservatives or even a number of centrists like yourself would agree in part, if not in its entirety.

Again, you say "tomato".....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes Bush a Good or Bad leader

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 As with all topics here, opinions and cases are subject to interpretation, would you not agree? In looking back at what igottaknow stated: One could also interpret his points in the following manner: 1. The Christian right has fundamental beliefs and an unshakeable notion to vote for someone who shares similar beliefs (or in this case, pretty much identical beliefs). True or false? 2. Big business has benefited a great deal from Bush's economic plan, and they'll likely support and lobby hard for his re-election as a result. True or false? 3. Personality goes a long way, esp. for those individuals whom are unwilling to invest enough time and effort into politics. These "dumb" individuals have a tendency to vote for that individual who carries himself well, regardless of viewpoints in some instances, such as for Clinton, Reagan, and JFK. True or false? 4. President Bush and the bulk of Conservatives ARE playing the patriot card ever since 9/11 (one might conclude overplaying the card). Mr. Ashcroft telling us that we are unpatriotic if we do not fully support the Patriot Act was quite enough for me personally. The black/white version of George "with us or against us" Bush set the tone quite clearly, and unfortunately those far-right radio pundits have taken this to ridiculous new heights. True or false? I'll grant you, #4 is a bit partisan, but I'd venture to bet that a number of conservatives or even a number of centrists like yourself would agree in part, if not in its entirety. Again, you say "tomato".....

Ok well why don't I apply my own spin on things to illustrate my point:

Reasons why a person would vote for John Kerry -

1. They're extreme leftists who take part in wacky groups such as greenpeace or peta. True or false?

2. They're non-working poor who want an expansion of welfare benefits so they can do less in exchange for getting more. True or False?

3. They're Socialists who are aiming for bigger governments and desire redistribution of wealth programs or affirmative action programs. True or False?

4. Or of course they're internet nut jobs who propogate poorly thought out ideas and refuse to abandon the notion of the vast right wing conspiracy. True or False?

Ummm that's about it right?


Of course all of those can be true since John Kerry voters likely incorporate all those factions of people. However, that portrayal is false as it leaves off all the normal people who vote for Kerry after careful analysis of his proposed domestic or foreign agenda. Hence it is elitist since I am attempting to classify all John Kerry voters in one of the above categories in order to cast them in a derogetory light.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes Bush a Good or Bad leader

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Ok well why don't I apply my own spin on things to illustrate my point:

You didn't have to illustrate your point, oh wise-silly-bored one, I understood what you were getting at. I just didn't see igottaknow's points quite as extremist partisan as you did. And besides, don't cha think you kinda went a little extreme on your counterpoints? Was his points really that far extreme? OK, I'm a little biased towards the left, but I think you can concede at least a couple of his points, can you not?

If you honestly interpreted his points as extreme, then I guess I really don't have much of an argument.

Actually, I really don't have much of an argument anyway. I really can't think too hard today. Mr. Daniels' "Gentlemen Jack" was not very fucking gentle to me last night. 4 advil and a gallon of H2O today and I'm still sucking.

Must sleep soon. Winding down......

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes Bush a Good or Bad leader

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Actually, I really don't have much of an argument anyway. I really can't think too hard today. Mr. Daniels' "Gentlemen Jack" was not very fucking gentle to me last night. 4 advil and a gallon of H2O today and I'm still sucking. Must sleep soon. Winding down......

Old Gentleman Jack will up and kick you in the nuts if you're not paying attention! I was up drinking G&T which usually does strange things to me(headache included).

Usually a good quantity of gin will make me:

1)Have really strange dreams
2)Wake up extremely early for no reason(many times still drunk)
3)Take a plethora of Advil and Coca-Cola.


To quote a personal favorite...

"Tequila dries me out, and beer just makes me fat. Whiskey makes me nauseous, tell me who the hell needs that? If you're thinkin' about drinkin' then the answer's crystal clear; it's the invisible intoxicant....called Everclear."

Any big Memorial Day Weekend plans?


Have I veered far enough off topic?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes Bush a Good or Bad leader

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 You didn't have to illustrate your point, oh wise-silly-bored one, I understood what you were getting at. I just didn't see igottaknow's points quite as extremist partisan as you did. And besides, don't cha think you kinda went a little extreme on your counterpoints? Was his points really that far extreme? OK, I'm a little biased towards the left, but I think you can concede at least a couple of his points, can you not? If you honestly interpreted his points as extreme, then I guess I really don't have much of an argument. Actually, I really don't have much of an argument anyway. I really can't think too hard today. Mr. Daniels' "Gentlemen Jack" was not very fucking gentle to me last night. 4 advil and a gallon of H2O today and I'm still sucking. Must sleep soon. Winding down......

Well no they most certainly were not that extreme. But as someone once described my style of debate I utilize an "informal game theory/zero-sum game" (heh wtf?), so I suppose I use extreme examples to get back to that uhhh ... zero ... sum ... you know ... in the game .... ummmm yea?

Nice rephrasing of my points Mr. Opus, I think Occrider doesn�t like my blunt view of Bush because he�s a republican.

While I might view the four points negatively they are all plausible reasons. For example you could take the first point that his Christian right constituent is proof that he enjoys moral superiority or his policies to remove the barriers between church and state are a good thing, even though it�s against the Constitution. A large segment of his supports like the idea of adding religion to our government. In part this has been an over reaction to Clinton.

As for my 3rd point Americans value superficial qualities over the candidate�s record and policy. This isn�t a partisan issue; candidates who are perceived as boring are at a big disadvantage (Bush 41, Dole, Gore, Dukakus�).

My 4th point speaks to a general mentality of this country to seek simple punitive solutions to complex problems i.e. war on drugs, war on crime, war on terrorism... Sounds like a bad action movie but it�s true. One thing you can�t debate is that Bush is anti-intellectual; he makes no bones about that.

quote:

2. They're non-working poor who want an expansion of welfare benefits so they can do less in exchange for getting more. True or False? 3. They're Socialists who are aiming for bigger governments and desire redistribution of wealth programs or affirmative action programs. True or False?

In the past you could accuse the democrats of big government policies, expensive social programs, and fiscal irresponsibility, but under Bush we have seen the largest run up of the debt, an astronomical expensive prescription drug program, and a total lack of fiscal responsibility.

Occrider, I�m still waiting for your list of why people support Bush, just remember no generalization please

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What makes Bush a Good or Bad leader

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Any big Memorial Day Weekend plans? Have I veered far enough off topic?

Ah, who cares anymore? My extreme case of the brain "duhs" have overtaken any rational thought right now.

As for weekend plans, not much - we're just watchin' a friend's dog and I'll be smokin' some ribs on Sunday. Actually, that was the original intent of the whiskey - it was part of my recipe for my sauce and tenderizer.

Oh well, the liquor store is just 2 min. from our pad. We'll be fine.

Intersting stuff,

It looks like ppl will always vote for the wrong reasons anywhere in north america.

thanks

quote:

Originally posted by TrueToTheCrew Intersting stuff, It looks like ppl will always vote for the wrong reasons anywhere in north america. thanks

What are the "right" reasons?

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzyGreen Why Bush is bad: 1. He lacks Charisma (far opposite of Clinton) 2. He is a terrible speaker 3. He doesn't give enough press conferences or connect with the people enough 4. He doesn't visit other countries enough and have meetings with other leaders 5. He took too many vacations at the start of his term. 6. He promises millions to Africa in AIDS aid when we have bigger issues at home to deal with. 7. He doesn't show enough outrage over an American being beheaded. 8. He doesn't speak up like a leader should in rough times. 9. John Ashcroft 10. Debt and too much spending (though it's reasonable in our current time of war) 11. Pandering to illegal aliens and giving citizenship to illegal alien Mexicans in order to get more votes. Not taking a tough stance on strong boarders. 12. Who is Dick Cheney and why is he so invisible???? The ghost vice president. Why Bush is good: 1. Tax cuts 2. He seems to have good moral values and tries to do what is right 3. He isn't as corrupt as Clinton was. 4. Sucessfully removed Saddam Hussain from power and has took us to War in Iraq with only a 1% loss of life on our side while mostly destroying one of the worst regimes in modern history. 5. Sucessfully took over Afganistan and continuing to hunt the enemy. 6. Sucessfully averted an unknown number of terrorist attacks since 9/11. and has been sucessful in protecting America and it's interests. 7. Colon Powell 8. Condi Rice Would I vote for him? No.

ok, great response but slightly flawed. I think he has great charisma (landing a fighter on an aircraft carrier, remempber that.)
his bad speeches are the fault of his bad speech writers, not him. and he does have a lot of press conferences if u watch fox news alot.

quote:

Originally posted by abdul ok, great response but slightly flawed. I think he has great charisma (landing a fighter on an aircraft carrier, remempber that.) his bad speeches are the fault of his bad speech writers, not him. and he does have a lot of press conferences if u watch fox news alot.

Boy oh boy you are gonna get raped by some of the veterans on these boards.

quote:

Originally posted by abdul ok, great response but slightly flawed. I think he has great charisma (landing a fighter on an aircraft carrier, remempber that.) his bad speeches are the fault of his bad speech writers, not him. and he does have a lot of press conferences if u watch fox news alot.

Are you being serious?

We have statements made like this that are purely sarcastic, so I'm actually asking you in all honestly.

If you are serious, would you care to tell me exactly how our "Mission" was "Accomplished"?

Also, could you tell me how many soldiers have died since that moment, in comparison to those who died during "real" combat missions prior to his "charismatic" speech on the boat that was deliberately delayed so the camera angle could be just right for the sunshine in his photo-op?

Would you care to tell us how many open-question press conferences Bush has had, press conferences that were not staged and which the press had free reign to ask him any and all questions, and could you compare that number of open-question press conferences to, say, Clinton's number in his 1st 4 years? How 'bout in comparison to Bush Sr.? Reagan? Are you prepared to make that comparison worthwhile?

Was it the fault of Bush's speech writers when Bush mispronounced "Abu Ghraib" 3 different times during his most recent speech?

Do you watch Fox News exclusively?

Again, are you being serious?

Kinda sad to be in the most powerful country in the world and you have two idiots to vote for president. I'm my case I'd vote for the lesser evil, Kerry.
There are many things I don't like about Bush, but one thing that ticked me off the most was when he had this practical joke on a slide show, a picture of him searching around the oval office, saying "where could thse WMD be?" People there thought it was funny, I guess the soldiers and their families must think it's funny too.

quote:

Originally posted by TrueToTheCrew Actually, the reason for my question is because I dont have a great opinion of bush. My knowledge of his "legacy" is limited because my main concerns/interests are in Canadian politics. I was just wondering how the hell can bush have a somewhat high rating in the polls (based on my opinion of course)? I guess my question should of been, for those who will vote for bush this election, what are the reasons. Get it?

Reason #1 he's better than Kerry, the old anti-war protester from the Vietnam days who sided with the traitor bitch Jane Fonda....
Reason #2 anyone with prissy hair like Kerry can't be trusted!


[[[smoke]]]

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow Nice rephrasing of my points Mr. Opus, I think Occrider doesn�t like my blunt view of Bush because he�s a republican.

Ok that's it ... I'm afraid you've lost all credibility from my point of view. For your information I'm a registered democrat. In actuality I'm a libertarian moderate who would like nothing more than an isolationist, deficit hawk, small government that dictates only economics not lifestyle. Despite the fact that I was too young to vote, I supported Clinton in 92, 96, I voted for Gore in 2000, and I'm voting Kerry in 04. If you feel that the only appropriate response to my arguments is to simplistically "slander" me as a "republican" than you go right ahead. It merely adds to my belief that a key constituent of the left haven't a clue as to what a "republican" OR moderate truly represents or what they value. It may explain why the democrats lost to a complete fucking numbskull such as Bush in 2000. "Oh we dems did EVERYTHING right, ergo the only reason that people voted for bush is because they're fucking uneducated, religious retards!!! Right???? Yea that must be it, because we're incapable of fucking up on our part!" Here's a hint: alienating moderates and the right by patronizing them and pretending you know their rationale for the decisions that they make is not the best way to build a concensus.

quote:

While I might view the four points negatively they are all plausible reasons. For example you could take the first point that his Christian right constituent is proof that he enjoys moral superiority or his policies to remove the barriers between church and state are a good thing, even though it�s against the Constitution. A large segment of his supports like the idea of adding religion to our government. In part this has been an over reaction to Clinton. As for my 3rd point Americans value superficial qualities over the candidate�s record and policy. This isn�t a partisan issue; candidates who are perceived as boring are at a big disadvantage (Bush 41, Dole, Gore, Dukakus�). My 4th point speaks to a general mentality of this country to seek simple punitive solutions to complex problems i.e. war on drugs, war on crime, war on terrorism... Sounds like a bad action movie but it�s true. One thing you can�t debate is that Bush is anti-intellectual; he makes no bones about that. In the past you could accuse the democrats of big government policies, expensive social programs, and fiscal irresponsibility, but under Bush we have seen the largest run up of the debt, an astronomical expensive prescription drug program, and a total lack of fiscal responsibility.

While they may accurately depict a specific representative portion of Bush voters, they in no way depict Bush voters as a whole. In the same way, voters of the left are equally suceptible to extremist principles, simple compensative solutions to complex problemms i.e. afirmative action, welfare, big government, etc. The point is is that you attempted to stereotype an entire voting block as being inferior because they are simpletons, because they are religious fanatics, because they are blinded by patriotism ... whatever. It would appear that in YOUR opinion, the motivations for the decisions these people make are in no way justifiable or explainable other than them being sheeple following the head wolf. In reality, you have no idea WHY they are voting the way they are voting asides from your vague generalities and assumptions. If you can't understand that a religious right person may have AS strong and justifiable beliefs about the moral surroundings that their children are growing up in as an Environmental leftist may have about the natural environemnt that their children will inherit than I don't know what to say.

quote:

Occrider, I�m still waiting for your list of why people support Bush, just remember no generalization please

They may value his domestic agenda, they may value his foreign agenda as being pro-active and pro-preventative, they may value the long term decision of removing Saddam from power, they may value his moral agenda, they may value his ability to lead the country as opposed to Kerry's, they may think that Kerry is no better, they may value his predictability in what he would and would not do ... there are a billion reasons for why a person would think the way that they do each being more subjective than the last. Making assumptions about a person being inferior because they think differentely from yourself is like the pot calling the kettle black.

Yeah, whatever Occrider said, plus....



HAHAHHAAAAAA!!!!
[[[smoke]]]

quote:

Originally posted by occrider I'm afraid you've lost all credibility from my point of view. For your information I'm a registered democrat

I said "I think you're a republican" that's not a definitive statement. Last time I checked political affiliation isn't tattooed on ones forehead.

quote:

response to my arguments is to simplistically "slander" me as a "republican" than you go right ahead.

You should be more respectful. Any one who's a Republican might take issue with you saying mistaking someone to be a Rebpulican is a form of 'slander'. For all you know I could be a Republican. Shame on you Occrider!

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow I said "I think you're a republican" that's not a definitive statement.

it is when your not paying attention...which is also blatant form of disrespect.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo it is when your not paying attention...which is also blatant form of disrespect.

I'm sorry I don't keep a dossier on members, charting their political affiliation and personal history. I'm more interested in discussing issues and the content of ones post.

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow I said "I think you're a republican" that's not a definitive statement. Last time I checked political affiliation isn't tattooed on ones forehead.

I'm confused as to why you would even attempt to stereotype me to begin with. Although I suppose it bears relevance to the thread topic.

quote:

You should be more respectful. Any one who's a Republican might take issue with you saying mistaking someone to be a Rebpulican is a form of 'slander'. For all you know I could be a Republican. Shame on you Occrider!

I was under the impression that my quotations around "slander" and "republican" was adequate reinforcement that that statement was facetious in nature.

quote:

Originally posted by smokeape Reason #1 he's better than Kerry, the old anti-war protester from the Vietnam days who sided with the traitor bitch Jane Fonda....

That's right, because he was photographed standing five or more rows behind Fonda at a rally - they must have been best buddies!

I know I've asked you this before, and got no response, but why is it bad that he was an anti-war protester? Do you think that wars are a good thing? Do you think that we should be actively trying to start wars?

quote:

Originally posted by arctic That's right, because he was photographed standing five or more rows behind Fonda at a rally - they must have been best buddies!

edit. my bad

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 If you do not take issue with this President and his Administration, and do not wish to see a change in our current foreign and domestic policies, then by all means you go right ahead and vote for Nader. Realistically you ought to just be voting for Bush, if this is your current line of thinking. But of course, it's your vote, and I have oh so little say in the matter.

Calm down old man, I was just joshing.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider For your information I'm a registered democrat.

Oh, come on now Cheney, we all know you're a right winged fanatic.

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