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-- Loophole In Smoking Bylaw! Puff Away!
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no what i do is called rebuttle which is what im about to do right here.

As for the smoking laws. The police (real police) have absolutely no jurisdiction when it comes to by-laws. Only by-law officers can charge you with by-law offences. If the real police show up its because the club called them because you refuse to leave or refuse to butt out. It has nothing to do with the act of smoking.

The real police also cannot force you to produce ID unless you are actually charged with something. And seeing as the real police cannot charge you with by-law offences of which the smoking law is, the real police have absolutely no power in this case. And neither do the by law police. Which means you are off scot free everytime!

How do i know this? I spent 3 summers working for By law services... thats how.

Just like police aren't allowed to layeth the smackdown on people they've already cuffed and secured or who aren't resisting, but it happens regularly.

So you've worked for the bylaw offices and you have something to do with the entertainment industry. What else should we add to your resume, just so we know what you're an "expert" on.

i also read the law and find out my rights as anyone can do online. The cops have tried to shake me down on many occasions but have failed. I remember i was at a rave once and a cop had a video camera and started asking my name and where i lived. My response? "am i under arrest"... the reply "well you could be!" and i said "so am i? and if so whats the charge?" and the reply was "no you are not" and i said "thanks have a great day".

You know though that the police can confine you for up to 6 hours before charging/releasing you. For doing absolutely nothing. Honestly without primary resources (in this case a lawyer) you should not be posting anything, as anything more than something you heard... Regardless I'm done arguing, I think I've made my point and you've beaten yours to death

Cheers!

^^^

Hmm, interesting... go on, Jay, give us some more

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 so? thats not your problem.. smoke and see if the club will enforce it. If they do, then apologize and butt out. Im willing to bet that most clubs wont give a shit unless the smoke police are actually on the premises.

arent you the same guy who was worried about losing his job because of decreased attendance rates?

wont the constant fines put a financial burden on the clubs?

quote:

Originally posted by PartyHarlequin Just like police aren't allowed to layeth the smackdown on people they've already cuffed and secured or who aren't resisting, but it happens regularly. So you've worked for the bylaw offices and you have something to do with the entertainment industry. What else should we add to your resume, just so we know what you're an "expert" on.

he seems to have 'friends' and 'work experience' where ever it seems convenient for his argument.

Jayx1 how old are you, to have had all these jobs and made all these good connections?

and if you say, what does it matter what your age is? well it takes time in life to build work experience and connections

the cops confining me for 6 hours without charge? Lets see what the charter says about this.... ah here it is. I have highlighted the parts that pertain to this arguement.

quote:

7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice. Search or seizure 8. Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure. Detention or imprisonment 9. Everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned. Arrest or detention 10. Everyone has the right on arrest or detention a) to be informed promptly of the reasons therefor; b) to retain and instruct counsel without delay and to be informed of that right; and c) to have the validity of the detention determined by way of habeas corpus and to be released if the detention is not lawful. Proceedings in criminal and penal matters 11. Any person charged with an offence has the right a) to be informed without unreasonable delay of the specific offence; b) to be tried within a reasonable time; c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence; d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal; e) not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause; f) except in the case of an offence under military law tried before a military tribunal, to the benefit of trial by jury where the maximum punishment for the offence is imprisonment for five years or a more severe punishment; g) not to be found guilty on account of any act or omission unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Canadian or international law or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations; h) if finally acquitted of the offence, not to be tried for it again and, if finally found guilty and punished for the offence, not to be tried or punished for it again; and i) if found guilty of the offence and if the punishment for the offence has been varied between the time of commission and the time of sentencing, to the benefit of the lesser punishment. Treatment or punishment 12. Everyone has the right not to be subjected to any cruel and unusual treatment or punishment. Self-crimination 13. A witness who testifies in any proceedings has the right not to have any incriminating evidence so given used to incriminate that witness in any other proceedings, except in a prosecution for perjury or for the giving of contradictory evidence. Interpreter 14. A party or witness in any proceedings who does not understand or speak the language in which the proceedings are conducted or who is deaf has the right to the assistance of an interpreter.

so you question my work experience? LOL thats funny... well i really dont give a rats ass what you think. I guess the old standby when you are losing an arguement is to attack credibility. Why dont you just go research the laws yourself as i have instead of attacking other's credibilities.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 so you question my work experience? LOL thats funny... well i really dont give a rats ass what you think. I guess the old standby when you are losing an arguement is to attack credibility. Why dont you just go research the laws yourself as i have instead of attacking other's credibilities.

well im all for not attacking the person arguing, check my postings in the smoking thread.

you can question a person's credibility when THEY bring it into contention, as you have by stating your work experience.

you brought up credibility and experience, not us, we are just asking for clarification, because in most threads i have read which you started, you have stated your experience.

just asking for clarification, not attacking who you are.

my experience is working 3 summers in the bylaw dept.

Enough said... im not claiming to be the #1 expert but i do have a handle on what my rights are as a citizen in this country. And the rest of you should all know these things too.

Its very very important.

i do agree. i would really like be more clear on my rights.

what do you suggest the best way to go about find out these things. i just went to look up the criminal code of canada, and man its crazy long!

i would definatly like to know what rights i have while being stopped by a cop.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 the cops confining me for 6 hours without charge? Lets see what the charter says about this.... ah here it is. I have highlighted the parts that pertain to this arguement.

Im sure everyone knows that for the most part if you are cool with a cop they will be cool with you.

The second you start screaming charter of rights, you have just given them every reason to fuk you over.

Suspicion of doing something illegal is very easy to prove. All the cop has to do is pretend that he smelt marijuana on you maybe say you looked intoxicated which would give him probable cause for search and seizure. Who do you think gets the benefit of the doubt in court.

1) always be polite with cops but stand firm if they overstep themselves.

2) the best way to find out your rights is by reading the chater and the various laws in place. they are all posted online. They are very long but if you search you can find the part that pertains to your question.

quote:

Originally posted by Orko i do agree. i would really like be more clear on my rights. what do you suggest the best way to go about find out these things. i just went to look up the criminal code of canada, and man its crazy long! i would definatly like to know what rights i have while being stopped by a cop.

Unreasonable search and seizure does not mean searching your pockets or your car.

It means pulling an inocent person aside, making them strip nude and take their belongings without proof that they are proceeds of crime or banned substances. If you so much bear a similiar resemblance to a criminal, cops can and will detain, search you untill they can satisfy that you are not the right person.

Charter of Rights is not here to protect defiant people. Once you break a law, at any level of govt you have violated law which bear consequences.

there is also a matter of jurisdiction. For example an OPP cop cannot charge you for speeding on a city owned road. Only on a provincial one and vice versa. But they can charge you for criminal reckless driving since it falls under the criminal code of the province and is not simple a driving offence.

Same holds true for bylaws. A police officer cannot charge you with a bylaw or detain you for violating a bylaw. Only bylaw officers can charge you with a bylaw infraction and they can only charge you with an infraction if they know who you are. Since the law says that only police officers can demand Identification and only if you are being charged, this means bylaw officers cannot.

Which means as far as smoking goes... PUFF AWAY and let the club ask you to stop.

I'd also like to note that the charter specifically states "within a reasonable time;" without giving one. They need only say that they suspect something and that's it, they can hold you indefinitely if you want to hide behind your charter. Police also aren't allowed to barge into your house without a warrant... Unless they are "in hot pursuit". Honestly you need to understand why these laws and charters exist before you can start ripping them out of context and utilizing them however you see fit to support your argument. There's a reason some lawyers get paid $600+ an hour and work 10 hours a day. Because you and I cannot interpret the law for ourselves, we can only just scratch the surface of how they protect us and order our otherwise chaotic and anti social (against society) existence (as you seem to be an instigator of anti social intents with your "loopholes" thread, you should take heed). There's lots to be learned and lots you should know in the why's.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Sadly many people around here take other's differing point of views personally. Not like in Europe where 2 people can have a heated political arguement with yelling and everything and then hug each other at the end of it and carry on drinking their wine as friends...

Are you smoking crack???? Europe is no more tolerant than North America man... what a ridiculous generalization...

I know plenty a euro that goes off like a mad-man/woman, and certainly ain't all lovey-dovey afterwards... christ-almighty...

in a moral society, you would follow the laws set forth by those elected. Why do you choose to advocate breaking said laws? You cant really believe that smoking in public is a right outlined in the charter.

Accecpt it for a few years, and vote for somebody else who will fulfill your wishes to smoke away.
The well being of the people are infinetly more important than the financial well being of nightclubs and pubs. That is unless they want to start paying more towards health care, both for their suffering employees and customers.

If I worked in a club, Id have it in my mind to sue them for an unsafe workplace caused by second hand smoke a few years down the road. This would be elevated even more if it was post bylaw smoking.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 the cops confining me for 6 hours without charge? Lets see what the charter says about this.... ah here it is. I have highlighted the parts that pertain to this arguement.

Hey smart guy...aren't you the one that said the Charter has been a legal and political disaster...seems to serve you well enough

quote:

Originally posted by Skipper If the club does not want to be fined, they will enforce the bylaw. If you don't want to get kicked out of the club, then you won't smoke. get it?

exactly! The club will not be fined so long as they can demonstrate that they took all reasonable steps to enforce the bylaw, such as posting signs and not servings patrons who are not complying with the bylaw. So long as they can show that, they are covered. Then, the PATRON will be subject to being fined.

So inspectors can't force someone to produce ID...thats fine, but the POLICE ARE ALLOWED TO ENFORCE THE BYLAW AND ISSUE TICKETS! So let's use Guv as an example:

1. Guv can kick you out for non-compliance.
2. There are police right outside who CAN ask you to present ID and CAN ticket you if an inspector or Guv security are willing to testify that they asked you to stop and you didn't.

BTW...a bylaw inspector is one thing, but I dare anyone to tell Guv bouncers to FUCK OFF if approached, LOL. You may not get fined, but a rough exit from the club might be in your immediate future

This "loophole" isn't going to allow you to smoke, it's just going to prevent you from easily being fined.

And another thing...

Smoking isn't a right, and the fact that people are stupid enough to directly intake a few thousand chemicals into their lungs through an exceptionally toxic and habit forming process, by no means should I have to suffer because of it.

That said it isn't fair that the government allows smoking and profits from it, but the smokers have been trampling on the rights of others, and their health, for too long now. So what if you have to suffer some minor complications and inconvienences.

If you light up beside me and blow it anywhere in my direction, screw the bylaw, I'll pop ya one.

I hear ya!

But man your avatar is starting to make me sick. I'm eating here

quote:

Originally posted by StereoPrincess i can't believe how annoying your online personality is.

hahaha
Tell it like it is Marg!!

quote:

Originally posted by PartyHarlequin I hear ya! But man your avatar is starting to make me sick. I'm eating here

Pregnant bearded ladies with a sub-woofer and tweeter in their tummy are beautiful too.

That's what their mom's tell them anyway.

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