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Originally posted by DjSway No sympathy for those people in the video.. War is ugly for both sides, if you think these pilots gave a hoot, do you think Iraqi fighters give a hoot about US soldiers too? Since I'm not on their side (Iraqis), I'm glad it was them on the receiving end this time. However, this doesn't mean I approve the war in Iraq.

Firstly they were trying to fix the tractor with a pipe.... not a RPG. (Personal British Army Source)

Secondly as someone else said it is illegal to kill a wounded enemy.

Thirdly

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Since I'm not on their side (Iraqis),

yeah.... cos it's not like the war was for Iraqi's was it.....

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Originally posted by Dervish Firstly they were trying to fix the tractor with a pipe.... not a RPG. (Personal British Army Source) Secondly as someone else said it is illegal to kill a wounded enemy. Thirdly yeah.... cos it's not like the war was for Iraqi's was it.....

I have no clue of what they were doing, fixing or selling.

Second, tell me what is legal about war? Neither sides will follow rules to the full extend.

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Originally posted by DjSway I have no clue of what they were doing, fixing or selling. Second, tell me what is legal about war? Neither sides will follow rules to the full extend.

They were using a pipe ("RPG") to fix a tractor exaust.

Secondly you seriously support using criminals for pilots? Whats the point in defending the values of law and so on if you don't apply them to yourself?

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Originally posted by dospunk 1. War is ugly, it always has been and always will be, in fact past wars have been filled with atrocities and sick behavior that far outweighs anything that has been currently happening in Iraq.

So basically, it is ok to do something wrong as long as worse things have happened before?

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Originally posted by dospunk 2. 500000 casualties is an enormous number when you consider the war did not take place on our soil. Huge civilian casualty counts were inflicted on European countries and Russia due to carpet bombing of cities aimed mostly at civilians. The contribution of the blood of 500000 soldiers coupled with state of the art military warcraft is a pretty big deal so discrediting that effort just shows you to be biased against America and not really thinking rationally or you are just not very intelligent.

Compare the population of Poland to the Population of the United States. Then compare the two casualty counts. Or to be more fair(because Poland's population was basically killed off because of who they were) compare the USA's casualties to Russia's. Then also compare the method used at Omaha(Send humans until you get through) to the Russian's highly similar way (just send people with weapons like pitchforks against machine gunners). Trying to win the war with sheer numbers. Both countries used similar methods. Both countries fought mostly off their own land (though Germany did try going into Russia, it was just too costly for them...not to mention cold) Somehow the Russians had more casualties.

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Originally posted by dospunk 3. Anybody who says the world and the Iraqi people are not better off with Sadam gone is fucking out of their mind. Was the war justified, probably not by the initial reasons given, mistakes were made, major miscalculations were made but come on sometimes the ends justify the means.

Americans have killed many more Iraqi civilians than the terrorists have killed Americans. Why must these people die and how is this better off than an oppresive leader? America is bringing democracy to the Iraqis... whether they like it or not.

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Originally posted by dospunk 4. Dont think that any of you living in other democratized capitalist countries werent eventual targets too. The radical religious sect of the muslim world would smile if all of you died right next to us Americans. If they had the might that our country and your countries had we would all be dead. This planet would probably be turned into a nuclear waste pit.

I cannot beleive how horribly close minded that is. You are basing your opinion of ALL muslims on the actions of a terrorist group that called themselves muslim. Maybe the muslims have a reason for hating the Americans? Maybe because of things that are said like your comment?

With all due respect Arg I do not understand what you were trying to get at with any of your replies.

1. I did not say the disturbing things happening in Iraq were justified I was just trying to make a point that war places enormous mental stress on the people involved and as a result inhumane acts are inevitable, the day there is a war that goes politically correct to a tee is not going to happen in our lifetime, but for the most part if you compare with past wars from past times you can see a steady improvement in humanitarianism with how this war has been going and how past wars have gone.

2. My point was pointing out the absurdity of linking effectiveness of a country's military effort solely with a casualty count. The American casualty count was strictly soldiers spilling their last drop of blood with a gun in their hands. There were no American civillians involved as with all other nations whose casualty count was dominated by civillian losses due to indiscriminate bombing campaigns of major cities. The count also ignored the major fact that the US was a highly industrialized nation and was able to make a major contribution to gaining air superiority.

3. Yes an unfortunate number of innocent Iraqis have already died during this war but look at the big picture and compare it with numbers like 100000-400000 put to death under Sadam's rule. He gassed villages in his own country. I saw a PBS special where some reporters visitied one of those villages. There were interviews with women who had no eyes because the poison caused such severe irritation it caused them to scratch their own eyes out. A common punishment for sedition to Sadams regime was the amputation of a hand. In the long run are you honestly suggesting that these people are worst off?

4. I made a distinct point in my comments to differentiate between the muslim world and the radical religious sect of the muslim world. Show me words that I said that implied they were one and the same. For you to say I said otherwise is insulting.

I cant believe we are carrying this whole debate out in the humor section of the tranceaddct forums. I come here to get away from the politics and BS.

Just so you know I am not a Bush supporter I plan to vote against him in the upcoming election and I have been trying to influence as many people as I can to make the same vote. But I am just tired of hearing so many antiamerican comments that are often devoid of rational thought and instead based on biases, generalizations and hatred.

I have now wasted far too much time with this conversation that I could have spent watcdhing people light their balls on fire and what not so I am dropping out of this conversation. Reply if you want but I am no longer listening. Back to sheepfucking and dick and fart jokes for me!

peace OUT

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Originally posted by dospunk With all due respect Arg I do not understand what you were trying to get at with any of your replies. 1. I did not say the disturbing things happening in Iraq were justified I was just trying to make a point that war places enormous mental stress on the people involved and as a result inhumane acts are inevitable, the day there is a war that goes politically correct to a tee is not going to happen in our lifetime, but for the most part if you compare with past wars from past times you can see a steady improvement in humanitarianism with how this war has been going and how past wars have gone.

Just to lighten the mood in here a bit.....



I say DAAAAAAMMMMMMNNNNNNNNN that's a long sentence!!!

I am sorry that you did not understand my replies. Debate is fun. You were the one that started the debate, so don't complain that there is one. If it takes so much of your precious time don't read and reply.

1. Mental stress should not hold up as a valid reason to commit such horrible war crimes. Lets take the My Lai incident in Vietnam for example. The major defense of this massacre of a whole village was stress and "faulty intelligence." So was it then justified even partially because the soldiers were under stress? Just like in Iraq, no!

2. It was not military effectiveness we were talking about though. It was the involvement the United States had in the World Wars. The count just shows that they did not do that much. Aslo the actual number of American soldiers lost was 292,000. The Soviet Union actually lost 19,180,000 soldiers and China lost 2,050,000. Poland did not losa many(123,000); however I dont think their army was bigger than that. Germany lost 3,500,000. Some interesting reading here about the numbers: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm

3. Yes Saddam was horrible. And yes they may be better off for now. However the ends do not justify the means. That is just like attacking a country so they don't attack you some time in the future. Oh wait that just happened! Just keep in mind that whatever government the United States sets up will be qiuckly manipulated by it's leaders to form another Saddam situation.

4. Well I see what you mean and I'm sorry for offending you. I should have chosen my words more carefully. It is not the sect which is bad. It is a few people using the religion to trick others into doing this.

A few nice maps of the losses during the Second World War: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2-loss.htm

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Originally posted by Dervish They were using a pipe ("RPG") to fix a tractor exaust. Secondly you seriously support using criminals for pilots? Whats the point in defending the values of law and so on if you don't apply them to yourself?

Dude what are you smoking? I think when you reply to peoples posts, you should reply within context to what they're talking about and not twisting words around.
Who said that I supported using criminals for pilots? Don't you know that in war even with the Geneva treaty and such, rules are broken all the times by both sides?
I say this, Iraqis have the right to defend themselves for what ever reason they have. I'm not here to be politically correct, I state my opinions and if you don't like it, well my dear boy... I just don't give a f*ck!
a)I don't think the US belongs there
b) But since we're there, lets keep our boys alive and bring them home!
c)Iraq is just another big mess, no thanks to Bush!

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Originally posted by DiMethGuy dude keep dreaming. In 250 years we've defeated the British, the Germans (Twice), the Japanese, brought the Soviet Union and communism to its knees, beat Iraq (Twice), and Afghanistan. So don't try and tell me that we're going down anytime soon, we still gotta clean up some other places.

Yeah and you lost to Vietnam

Could somebody please tell me that not all Americans think like this guy!! Otherwise I am gonna get very fightened! Cause this is probably the most retarded thing I have ever read, it perfectly characterises Bush' thoughts!

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Originally posted by lordyosh yea that video is fucked up. but don't say my country is gonna see it's end just because of that, fuck you.

well fuck you too

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Originally posted by Dj Dovla okeoke .. maybe I did not phrase it well , the USA will see its end very soon as the world superpower , everything great has to come to an end sometime ... history is there to prove it .. next superpower in line .... I say CHINA

k

exactly, yes, China is highly likely the next superpower, America isn't going to be high and mighty forever

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Originally posted by Dj Dovla USSR 13,600,000 7,700,000 21,300,000 United States 500,000 - 500,000

some facts right there,
and that cock sucker(DiMethGuy) is telling us that they won WWII

US. just doesnt belong there period. It is time that they stop playing the world cop, cuz lately they do whatever the fuck they want. When u are just an observer of these wars, and watch CNN, maybe you could even justify some of the actions, but if u live there you could see that they are playing with peoples lives. I have seen numerous "funny" videos on the net...where the americas army is displayed in their true colors, gunning down civilians, destroying their property and all with a laugh! (ie. "Don't loot" video, etc.)

I agree that we should fight terrorism, but there are other ways to do so, this way America just gathers more enemies, and creates more wars.

BTW. this post should be moved to the political forum...its hardly humor anymore

W/ever u damn Anti-Americans....USA will never go down. We are smarter than that...We now in the 2004 have learned from history...that is why in 200+ yrs we have come this far...our constitution is brilliant and better than what is out there IMO...that's why u see alot of other countries trying to copy it....NOW LEAVE AMERICA ALONE AND STFU...IF U DONT LIKE US< THEN TAKE IT UP TEH POOPY CUZ WERE NOT HERE TO TAKE THIS SHIT>....

NUFF SAID

Just go and watch fahrenheit 9/11 should put some of your thoughts in a new perspective!
Hope u can understand the movie, cause looking at some of the replies posted by Americans, I dont give u to much hope!

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Originally posted by TranzAddict W/ever u damn Anti-Americans....USA will never go down. We are smarter than that...We now in the 2004 have learned from history...that is why in 200+ yrs we have come this far...our constitution is brilliant and better than what is out there IMO...that's why u see alot of other countries trying to copy it....NOW LEAVE AMERICA ALONE AND STFU...IF U DONT LIKE US< THEN TAKE IT UP TEH POOPY CUZ WERE NOT HERE TO TAKE THIS SHIT>.... NUFF SAID

LMAO. This is hilarious..if you're so sure that you guys will continue to succeed with the current way your government is conducting itself..then you have no clue that HISTORY WILL REPEAT ITSELF. It always does, it's inevitable. I'll say it again, even though it's been mentioned in this thread before. Look at the Brits, the Romans, the Greeks, Mongols, etc. THEY ALL FELL EVENTUALLY...

I'm not saying, "you're all gonna die!" We're just saying that at some point in time, there's gonna be a huge shift in power in this world..and it will involve the USA losing it. That's all. Don't worry, you'll still be around...

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Originally posted by Rudy Just go and watch fahrenheit 9/11 should put some of your thoughts in a new perspective! Hope u can understand the movie, cause looking at some of the replies posted by Americans, I dont give u to much hope!

Better yet go read some books... you know those things with teh werds in em! Id suggest starting with something like 1984 since it is pretty popular anyways. While you are reading compare george bush with Big Brother. While not all the lines match yet, enough should to show you what is going on.

You can say that America shouldn't police the world, that's fine.
You can say that we shouldn't have gone into Iraq, ..I agree.
You can say that our soldiers caught on video haven't been the best example of American values, but whatever.

But seriously, how can anoyone honestly say that America didn't play a big part in World War 1 and World War 2.

Let it be a reminder to everyone that we entered World War 1 to help out our allies the British. We didn't need to go, but we did because we felt it was the right thing to do, and it was. The fact that you're criticizing our part in the war is unbelievable when we went all the way to another continent just to help friends. Germany had done nothing to us, other than the "Zimmerman telegram" and sinking one of our oceanliners.

Do you seriously believe WW2 could have been won w/o the US? Maybe they don't teach you about D-Day over in Europe.

Oh yeah, and to this Serbian kid who keeps posting stuff, maybe you've forgotten about the millions of dollars in aid that the US has poured into Serbia. You don't know what you're talking about.

Poland kid, during WW2 your country was defeated in what like 1 week? Didn't you have like calvary charging against German tanks? Maybe thats why you didn't have many losses, b/c you weren't fighting for more than a couple days. Don't call Americans stupid horse boy.
Also its well known that the Russians had one gun for every 4 soldiers, and used to just charge into German machine gun fire. Life losses cannot be used exclusively to showcase a countries involvement in a war. We were fighting both Japan and Germany at the same time, while most of Europe was just fighting Germany. I think its safe to say we were involved.

HAHA dude what money are you talkin about, what aid....oh yea the nuclear waste and bomb aid is that what you mean? Thousands of civilians dead? Is that it? u fuckin bombed our country and made up stories of ethnic cleansing just so u could get into Balkans....but the same terrorists that were attackin our people in Bosnia and kosovo (it is a fact that AlQaeda and other extremsist, were involved in fighting against serbs in both conflicts) and whom you supported in Afghanistan against the Soviets, fucked u on 9/11 and other ocassions. For fucks sake OSAMA is a product of the US just so you get Soviets from behind. US didnt help us shit...even in WW2 where u claimed u helped us, you aided Tito (also your man) who then went on to create a communist country in the BAlkans...which only postponed further conflicts.

Dude learn sum fuckin history and then confront me....this may not be the best place however..as this is supposed to be a music site...

however i agree that in WW2 Germany could not have been stopped if United states had not entered the war...thats where you came out as the superforce...WW1 you didnt realy do much as the allies were strong already...you only enetered the war so you could claim money from the treaty

btw how do you explain bombing japan even after the japs agreed to surrender....reminder:They didnt want the bomb to go to 'waste' so they killed millions of innocent japanese civilians...

plz dude no more history out of you...

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Originally posted by DjSway Who said that I supported using criminals for pilots?

Ok so you don't want pilots who break the law but...

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Don't you know that in war even with the Geneva treaty and such, rules are broken all the times by both sides?

Thats breaking the law (not rules law, international law).... hence they are criminals. It is simply a fact.

Deside what you want dogmatic support for criminals or pilots who are proptional in responce and can act in a controlled manner. Bear in mind this helicopter was kms (not in imediate danger, forget the "RPG"/pipe even if it was he didn't have it) away and that guy was rolling about on the ground. Some would call that murder.

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Originally posted by Spartan Also its well known that the Russians had one gun for every 4 soldiers, and used to just charge into German machine gun fire. Life losses cannot be used exclusively to showcase a countries involvement in a war. We were fighting both Japan and Germany at the same time, while most of Europe was just fighting Germany. I think its safe to say we were involved.

I agree with most of what you say and anyone doubting the amount the USA helped and the men they gave to help should think about it a bit.

But that quote about the russians is just based upon "Enemy At The Gates". It was like that at the start by for example Russian tanks were for periods the best in the war. Russia made a huge contribution. Asd did Poland esp. in the RAF they helped win the Battle of Britain.

And something the Americans should realise, if Britain or Russia fell you would have to. Seriously. Also you never entered the war until it suited so making it into some huge favor at every possible chance to mention it is a bit gay.

But like I said the USA did contribute alot(which should never be fogotten), however Hollywood tend to paint a picture where they did everything (I could give you a million and one examples of it). And be honest how many non-american sources of information have to looked at seriously? America played a part however is was only a part not the whole thing as many peopel seem to think.

Yeah my bad guys I got a little carried away w/ my last post. It's just a little frustrating when you enter a thread and see like EVERybody bashin the US. (especially in the humor section) It was late and I was in a bad mood already. My bad.

I also apologize for the Serbian comment, I'm sure I don't know the full story. And while we're at it the Poland one as well.

However I will say one more thing, please remember when you bash us that the US went into the Iraqi war with the best intentions. Our original plan was to set up an independent Iraq with a democratic government several months after the main fighting stopped. Now that this task has become extremely difficult we can't simply pull out and leave the Iraqi people leaderless. We're stuck there, and even though we'll get the worlds criticism, you have to finish what yous start.

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Originally posted by Spartan Poland kid, during WW2 your country was defeated in what like 1 week? Didn't you have like calvary charging against German tanks? Maybe thats why you didn't have many losses, b/c you weren't fighting for more than a couple days. Don't call Americans stupid horse boy. Also its well known that the Russians had one gun for every 4 soldiers, and used to just charge into German machine gun fire. Life losses cannot be used exclusively to showcase a countries involvement in a war. We were fighting both Japan and Germany at the same time, while most of Europe was just fighting Germany. I think its safe to say we were involved.

Yeah how about you stop typing now. You basically restated what I said! Maybe next time you should read my posts before you bash them? I already said that Poland didn't have much of a military. However it still had one of the highest death counts due to the murdering of the jews. Do you call almost Five million people dead "not many losses?" I also talked about the whole Russian thing. If you actually find something that I have not talked about then please post it. Don't post what I say and then say I missed it.

Thanks.

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Originally posted by Spartan However I will say one more thing, please remember when you bash us that the US went into the Iraqi war with the best intentions. Our original plan was to set up an independent Iraq with a democratic government several months after the main fighting stopped. Now that this task has become extremely difficult we can't simply pull out and leave the Iraqi people leaderless. We're stuck there, and even though we'll get the worlds criticism, you have to finish what yous start.

Actually the reason was to remove a global threat and any mass destruction weapons within the area; but thanks for playing anyway. Funny how the focus suddenly went from prevention of war to "peace" when they figured out there were no mass destruction weapons, eh? Oh and finish what you start? Oh you mean like in Vietnam...where it got too hard and the Americans just left? God that would be unethical or something. Then again there was no oil in Vietnam right?

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Originally posted by Dervish Ok so you don't want pilots who break the law but... Thats breaking the law (not rules law, international law).... hence they are criminals. It is simply a fact. Deside what you want dogmatic support for criminals or pilots who are proptional in responce and can act in a controlled manner. Bear in mind this helicopter was kms (not in imediate danger, forget the "RPG"/pipe even if it was he didn't have it) away and that guy was rolling about on the ground. Some would call that murder.

I didn't see the full video, but from what I remember the guy was rolling around after being shot at with A 30mm automatic Boeing M230 Chain Gun, designed to penetrate armor plating. Unfortunately, that guy didn't have much of a chance of surviving his injuries. You may call this murder, but this is war, it's ugly and evil no matter what angle you're looking at. It's funny how we sit here comfortably on our arses, typing away, posting messages while we critize people killing each other thousands of miles away.

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