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-- Europe vs. USA
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| Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Certainly you cannot argue that in Eastern European countries such as Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia to name a few the Romani populations of those countries are treated as second class citizens. They are often referred to as blacks by the general population, education is usually not available or segregated when offered. |
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| Originally posted by NYCTrancefan As for Americans being treated bad in Europe wouldn't surprise me since people always try to get political when they hear someone is American, I have had friends who have gone to Ireland to visit and as soon as people hear that they are American they start asking a whole bunch of questions centered on politics, such as how could you elect George Bush, why are Americans so ignorant of other people, along with the other usual inferences. Never mind that over half of America didn't vote for Bush, which means odds are you just might be speaking to someone who disagrees with his policies, but do some Europeans take the time to know that, no, they simply want to argue politics because you are American and have already been generalized. When I go on vacation I don't want to talk politics but to relax and enjoy another culture, hope many Europeans realize this as well. |
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| Originally posted by NYCTrancefan When it comes to Bush and the administration certainly they have no business in E.U. affairs but we could just as easily say that Europe has no business in American affairs by that token of sentiment and I wouldn't mind seeing both exercised. I believe with the issue of Turkey and the E.U. too much of a deal is being made on your part when the U.S. says it supports E.U. membership for Turkey, either way it is not up to America, but Turkey is an ally and the U.S is simply voicing support for that ally, what difference will it make when France, Germany, U.K all favor Turkish memerbership as well. I will never sell America short because I know what this nation ultimately stands for and administrations come and go. P.S. America has seen other rough patches in its history and has managed to strengthen and grow throughout it all, all who predict the downfall of America seriously underestimate the spirit of this nation when all is said and done. America could be passive, isolationist and inward looking but will that be for the better in the world of today? |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus The point of my "attack" on Europe was to point out how ridicilous your attack on America looks. I have still not met an American that hates gay people, I've met Americans that hate Jews, some that very much dislike Arabs and hate their terrorists. I've met a lot of people in America. Its still curious I haven't met a gay-hater yet. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus Your point that Europeans hate Americanas, Religious men, and Eastern European is no less absurd then your remark upon Europeans. It didn't respond to that point, as I don't think it is a point - I don't see this problem in American society. Just as no dount you don't see the problem with Eastern Europeans and Americans in your society. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus ...As for Eastern European treatment. My claim comes from personal experience with friends from places such as Turkey, Yugoslavia, and Bosnia. They don't make you guys sound like the politest of hosts. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus There will no doubt be intolerance in every society, but trancholic, if you are trying to make the claim that European society is more tolerant than American society, I think you are making a very, very far stretch of a claim. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus IMO, this point can be proven alone by the fact that America has no nobility. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus So now you are telling me you as a European know what the Iraqi's want and don't want?! Thanks for making my point for me   |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus I guess the USA knew what's best for Europe too when they decided to clean up the Balkans... NYCTrance did a good job of addressing this point. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus As for what Europe once was does not give it any claim to the greatest it does not posess today. Further many of the enlightenment thinkers agreed that such thought of the individual as still reflected by Americans were only able to exist in the New World. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus Guess what? The USA's social program could never dream of being as large, corupt, or ineffective as the ones Europe. But it does its job. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus Nobody in the USA is going hungry or dying in the street. If you are hungry, you survive. If you are injured they still heal you. You might not have the best teeth in the world but you survive. And if you always want the cozy social treatment afforded to low-class Europeans, jail offers great benifits. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus I have still not met an American that hates gay people, I've met Americans that hate Jews, some that very much dislike Arabs and hate their terrorists. I've met a lot of people in America. Its still curious I haven't met a gay-hater yet. So since American's don't hate gays, I have no clue what you are talking about. |
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| Originally posted by Shakka Then again, Nokia is headquartered in Finland. Not Sweden, but close enough |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus I have still not met an American that hates gay people, I've met Americans that hate Jews, some that very much dislike Arabs and hate their terrorists. I've met a lot of people in America. Its still curious I haven't met a gay-hater yet. So since American's don't hate gays, I have no clue what you are talking about. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus Its still curious I haven't met a gay-hater yet. So since American's don't hate gays, I have no clue what you are talking about. |
Timbro! 
That would be the Swedish think-tank positioned on the political right, backed up by big business and stuff. Well known for having a very "free-market and capitalism"-agenda where well-fare is as small as it can possibly be.
I don't really question their findings since the scientific methods used in in this sudy are probably sound but obviously they only presents findings that support their cause and they don't hide the fact that they really would like to see an U.S. form of capitalism in Sweden.
Good or bad I leave that up to you
Well, the GDP alone doesn't say much. So yeah, Washington has 5 times higher GDP than any other district. Does it mean that an average Joe in Washington is living better? Not really, it just says that there are a lot of filthy rich people there. Does it says anything about a country's power? Nope, Germany outperforms Washington in any area of productivity, research, or military.
As for welfare and social security, whether you think Europe is giving too much or too little, it still doesn't remove the fact that Europe has a way better social and medical security than the US.
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| Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 As for welfare and social security, whether you think Europe is giving too much or too little, it still doesn't remove the fact that Europe has a way better social and medical security than the US. |
A worldwide survey was conducted by the UN. The only question
asked was:"Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the
food shortage in the rest of the world?"
The survey was a huge failure...
- In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant.
- In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant.
- In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant.
- In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant.
- In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant.
- In South America they didn't know what "please" meant.
- And in the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant
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| Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 As for welfare and social security, whether you think Europe is giving too much or too little, it still doesn't remove the fact that Europe has a way better social and medical security than the US. |
I like that
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| Originally posted by tathi A worldwide survey was conducted by the UN. The only question asked was:"Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world?" The survey was a huge failure... - In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant. - In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant. - In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant. - In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant. - In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant. - In South America they didn't know what "please" meant. - And in the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant |
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| Originally posted by imokruok Long term social programs are at the greatest risk in Europe - in fact, at far higher risk than the US or any other advanced nations. You people need to have more freaking children, because your piss-poor birthrates are bankrupting the system. Even worse, most continental governments are welcoming immigrants with open arms in order to remedy the situation. The only problem is that most of them are having one hell of a time assimilating. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus I've met a lot of people in America. Its still curious I haven't met a gay-hater yet. So since American's don't hate gays, I have no clue what you are talking about. |
AS many before me have pointed out, GDP is far from everything. In almost all measurements when they take into account different aspects, like quality of life, happiness etc, Europe comes far better than America. Also we got better health care for everyone, less poverty, less gun crimes etc
The European economy is still increasing, as long as it does i don't see any problems with it. We are happier and still we get more money every year. We don't have to rely on investments from foreigner countries in the same way as the US have to either.
As for too little kids being born, yes that is a problem. But i certianly don't think it has something to do with the welfare kind of government. Sweden (who is one of the most left countries in europe) for example has a positive growth. On the other hand "low tax" countries such as italy and spain has A LOT more problems with population growth. I think the problem more lies in the women's place in society there, that if they born a children they have to sacrifice their carrier to raise the child.
St. Andrew don't you believe that you are engaging in a lot of broad based generalizations by assuming that Europeans have it far better in quality of life, happiness, etc than America. Based on what might I ask. If Europe is a united entity as you so strongly believe and is reflected as a unit of 25 then how can you make such a claim, what about the problems of Eastern Europe is that not part of Europe. What basis do you use as comparison for your assertion, have you been to America and lived.
For example, how terrific is the quality of life of many of the Muslims that live in the suburbs of Marseille or Paris in France by the way suburbs are not a good thing in Europe my fellow Americans. Its huge highrise complexes that house immigrant families, kind of like the project housings in America. Maybe the quality of life is greater in Scandanavia but once again its a much smaller population, high employment and pretty much an homogenous culture. See how great it would be if proportionally you had to absorb the number of migrants that America has had over its history
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| Originally posted by NYCTrancefan St. Andrew don't you believe that you are engaging in a lot of broad based generalizations by assuming that Europeans have it far better in quality of life, happiness, etc than America. Based on what might I ask. If Europe is a united entity as you so strongly believe and is reflected as a unit of 25 then how can you make such a claim, what about the problems of Eastern Europe is that not part of Europe. What basis do you use as comparison for your assertion, have you been to America and lived. For example, how terrific is the quality of life of many of the Muslims that live in the suburbs of Marseille or Paris in France by the way suburbs are not a good thing in Europe my fellow Americans. Its huge highrise complexes that house immigrant families, kind of like the project housings in America. Maybe the quality of life is greater in Scandanavia but once again its a much smaller population, high employment and pretty much an homogenous culture. See how great it would be if proportionally you had to absorb the number of migrants that America has had over its history |
GDP per captia is meaningless unless you have a income distribution to support this stats.
For instance i could have 1 country earning 2 million dollars per year and this money is divided equally amoung the 1,000 inhabitants.
2,000 per person
I could also have another country earning 2 million a year and 100 people get 1 million and the other 900 get the other 1 million
222 per person.
This is in fact a similar situation to that of the US where i believe it was 10 percent of the country owns 50 percent of the wealth.
Although the GDP per capita would make it appear that average person in the US is wealther then in europe one cannot tell without the other support indicators.
Also one needs to take into consideration
1) cost of transport
2) cost of accomdation
3) cost of food
4) health care coverage
5) education
6) social programmes.
If someone lived in nation where they maybe have an extra 1,000 per year in income due to lower taxes but they also have to pay 100 percent of thier education which one is better off.
Not to down play the US's achievements but dont break your arm patting your self on the back just yet.
there is alot more that one needs to see before one can make accurate statements about which one is better.
Also you would then have to establish a value for certain aspects of life Ie is education more valuable then health care or transport more valuable then food, defence more important then social programms free media vs media concentration.
good article but..... it is misleading at best
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| Originally posted by NYCTrancefan For example, how terrific is the quality of life of many of the Muslims that live in the suburbs of Marseille or Paris in France by the way suburbs are not a good thing in Europe my fellow Americans. Its huge highrise complexes that house immigrant families, kind of like the project housings in America. Maybe the quality of life is greater in Scandanavia but once again its a much smaller population, high employment and pretty much an homogenous culture. See how great it would be if proportionally you had to absorb the number of migrants that America has had over its history |
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| Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I hardly believe that the life of an average muslim in the suburb of Paris is any worse than the life of an average black guy in Bronx. While European suburbs are not really the nicest place to live, I think they're still better than the US ghettoes. |
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| Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I hardly believe that the life of an average muslim in the suburb of Paris is any worse than the life of an average black guy in Bronx. While European suburbs are not really the nicest place to live, I think they're still better than the US ghettoes. |
all the remarks of Swilly are right on point.
For those who have access there is an interesting article in this weeks Economist on this very point. In essence, the article concludes that boosterism of how Superior the USA is to Europe are largely illusory. In fact the Europeans on several very important economic indicators excel the USA. Lower debt, greater income equality etc.
God, how much I despise the mindless statements the USA is a free market paradise. Thats an outright lie. In fact the ECB has far greater monetarist credentials than the Federal Reserve. The governments in the European Union spend money on welfare, the USA government spends money on prisons for the 2 million people in jail. Both are government wealth transfers, yet social welfare gets right wing scorn and jails get right wing praise. The West Europeans have universal health care, the USA has a grossly inefficient and wasteful health system etc etc.
Heres a bit of hosest truth, NO CORPORATION WANTS FREE MARKETS IF THEY CAN HELP IT. The corporations want free markets for the sources of their materials and the labour that makes their products to force the cost of manufacture down but they want monopolies and subsidies when they sell them. So what really happens is only the weak get the wonders of the free market, the corporations get subsidies, tax cuts, protectionism and big fat government contracts that arent up to competitive bidding.
The USA government is a wealth transfer system from the taxpayers to the big corporations and yet I don't think I have ever heard any right wingers ever complain or argue about the protectionism that is extended to the big corporations. This is what has happened to the USA:
State capture
Is defined as "the actions of individuals, groups, or firms both in the public and private sectors to influence the formation of laws, regulations, decrees, and other government policies to their own advantage as a result of the illicit and non-transparent provision of private benefits to public officials."
Witness the fact the Enron helped draft US energy policy and was instrumental in deregulating Californias energy market in order to rob californian energy consumers. All in the name of free enterprise.
And yet people thank the wonderful corporate system. Guys like Adam Smith knew that a capitalist system only works if there is a strong government to enforce the law, which in turn is accountable to the people. If people get the chance to steal they do.
And yet President Bush and his lads will probably win, despite the countless lies and scandals.
'When you have a society of sheep you should expect a government of wolves.'
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| Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Might I ask you have you ever lived in either one of them because like Phalpax I as well lived in a "ghetto" in NYC. I doubt that you have lived in either a NYC ghetto or a immigrant community in Europe to form such a statement that one is better than another. Notice I did not ever make mention in my commentary that one was better than the other unlike yourself, I instead drew upon the immigrant highrises in Europe as a response to St_Andrew's statements of quality of life. I wanted to demonstrate that quality of life is a very subjective point that unless you are a part of that setting makes commenting on it less than knowledgable on an individuals part. Even within these "ghettos" there are varying degrees of social problems, nothing is blanket for the "average black guy" As an average black guy from Brooklyn, NY I would like to think I can comment on this especially. As a matter of fact the majority of blacks who are very poor actually live in the Southern states of the U.S. P.S. my assertion was never that the suburbs of Paris or Amsterdam that have a lot of immigrant communities from Middle Eastern countries, Africa and Suriname in the case of Holland was worse than those in America, you interpreted that on your own. Reread my statement and you will see my point. When St_Andrew made his post I doubt he had the concept of an average black guy or immigrant in mind on the quality of life in America or those of the average immigrant in Europe and that is my point of why it is subjective to generalise as he did. |
Thank god for Mississippi!
[[[smoke]]]
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