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-- Get Bush Out In November!!
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Originally posted by Shakka While I actually agree with you on the hypocricy statement I'd like to defend what you are referring to as "Puppet government officials." I'd say the U.S. has been rather eager and aggressive to give as much control back to Iraqis as quickly as possible. The Interim Governing Council was obviously a U.S. created body, but the new one, while still closely allied with U.S., is much more independent than the previous one. And I'd say that if history is any indicator thus far(Sovereignty handed over a day early), the Iraqis will be holding independent elections in the coming months. That's not a puppet government, Cyrus. To which I'll add another compliment to the current administration. Dubya said that direct elections in Iraq would be in place before the end of 2004. To me that indicates that whether he is elected or not, he means to get the job done.

So if the iraqi's wanted a nice little mullah that was controlled by the fathers in Iran...the US would have no problem with it and would let them continue their election?

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Originally posted by Cyrus King So if the iraqi's wanted a nice little mullah that was controlled by the fathers in Iran...the US would have no problem with it and would let them continue their election?

While I'm sure the U.S. wouldn't condone it and would probably try to pursuade them otherwise--ultimately I believe the administration is committed to giving the Iraqis that choice. I think Bush actually alluded to something like that when he made one of his big primetime speeches earlier this year.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King You are not paying Iraqi taxes and are not under Iraqi law, yet you support your government in going to war replacing another government becuase they think its right to do so and INSTALL thier own puppet government officials. How come its not okay for canadians to have a say in your government when you can have a say in other nation's governments? Hypocrite.

Apearantly you didn't read my entire statement, here, maybe you should re-read what I wrote:

"If you don't like how American's foreign policy effects your country then YOU need to elect a government in your country that is capable of negotiating changes with the American government and if that still doesn't make the change you desire then YOUR government needs to spend YOUR tax money on an army to try and force change upon my country (haha good luck)."

WE DID TRY TO CHANGE IRAQ's FOREIGN POLICY TOWARDS THE WORLD, they refused to change, so we forced them to change using our army. I'm not being a hippocrite, you're just being illiterate.

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Originally posted by Cobolt This is true but what is also true is that the Electoral College should have been abolished many many years ago.

That's irrelevent. The original statement was that he wasn't fairly eleected. According to the rules of the US government he was.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King So if the iraqi's wanted a nice little mullah that was controlled by the fathers in Iran...the US would have no problem with it and would let them continue their election?

huge, huge hypothetical.
the following art. is from Feb. this year.http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&sec...d=27&m=2&y=2004

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Do the Iraqis want an Islamist regime? 1. The question is pertinent and must be debated. At least five major public opinion polls conducted since the liberation show that support for such a regime hovers around three to four percent. In one poll, the question whether an Iranian-style Islamic Republic would be suitable for Iraq drew a positive response from only one percent of the respondents. None of Iraq�s dozen or so political parties � from the secularists to religious Shiites � demands the creation of an Islamic state. Nor can one find a single prominent Iraqi intellectual who would wish to establish a religious regime. Even the Shiite mullas, starting with their primus inter pares, the Grand Ayatollah Ali-Muhammad Sistani, are not making such a demand. Anyone with some knowledge of Iraqi Shiism would know that the last thing that Iraq�s Shiites want is a regime like that of the Khomeinists in Iran which, after a quarter of a century of terror and war, is now in deep, possibly terminal, crisis.

What Iraqi's want and what you may want are two different things.

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Originally posted by Shakka While I'm sure the U.S. wouldn't condone it and would probably try to pursuade them otherwise--ultimately I believe the administration is committed to giving the Iraqis that choice.

pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease we both know thats bullshit,you telling me that Bush spent all this money to go to war with Iraq and just let some Mullahs take over the country??

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen WE DID TRY TO CHANGE IRAQ's FOREIGN POLICY TOWARDS THE WORLD, they refused to change.

First of all Who the fcuk is Us to force another country to change??
you wanna talk aboutThe world??The US cares about the world?This is the same administraision that didnt give a fuck about what the world was telling them before they went to the War with Iraq.
It is funny how the like to use the terms like "international" and "UN" now more then ever.They fuck up and they ask the world to help them out.

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so we forced them to change using our army

Maybe someone should force their way out into your house and ruin evrything in it.Lets see how you'd feel

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease we both know thats bullshit,you telling me that Bush spent all this money to go to war with Iraq and just let some Mullahs take over the country?? First of all Who the fcuk is Us to force another country to change?? you wanna talk aboutThe world??The US cares about the world?This is the same administraision that didnt give a fuck about what the world was telling them before they went to the War with Iraq. It is funny how the like to use the terms like "international" and "UN" now more then ever.They fuck up and they ask the world to help them out. Maybe someone should force their way out into your house and ruin evrything in it.Lets see how you'd feel

Don't you know that many conservatives are under the impression that they can control the actions of people the world over by simple application of military power and their own ideologies. I heard a retarted commentary by a conservative woman who has a radio show on the other day use this argument "Between Bush and Kerry who would the terrorists be more scared of" What a jackass she was because frankly if the terrorists are these fanatical, islamo-fascist murderers that conservatives have clearly highlighted what makes you think they are scared of either. They blow themselves up and live under an ideology, so what will they be scared of, dying.

Every American knows that not one of us would have accepted what was done to Iraq if it was our nation being invaded. There are far more terrorists today in Iraq than before the conflict yet which direction can the Bush administration turn to but to begging the U.N and Nato(in esssence Europe) to help in the end. Problem is that he cannot garner any support from those bodies because the administration isn't trusted, rubbed people the wrong way and frankly no one wants to inherit any piece of that chaos engulfing Iraq today when it comes to security and stability. From Latin America, to Vietnam and the Middle East(Lebanon) we simply do not learn from the past, when shall we.

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Don't you know that many conservatives are under the impression that they can control the actions of people the world over by simple application of military power and their own ideologies. I heard a retarted commentary by a conservative woman who has a radio show on the other day use this argument "Between Bush and Kerry who would the terrorists be more scared of" What a jackass she was because frankly if the terrorists are these fanatical, islamo-fascist murderers that conservatives have clearly highlighted what makes you think they are scared of either. They blow themselves up and live under an ideology, so what will they be scared of, dying.

Stupid quesion indeed.This just shows how succesful Bush has been for brainwashing millions of Amercians.

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Every American knows that not one of us would have accepted what was done to Iraq if it was our nation being invaded. There are far more terrorists today in Iraq than before the conflict yet which direction can the Bush administration turn to but to begging the U.N and Nato(in esssence Europe) to help in the end. Problem is that he cannot garner any support from those bodies because the administration isn't trusted, rubbed people the wrong way and frankly no one wants to inherit any piece of that chaos engulfing Iraq today when it comes to security and stability. From Latin America, to Vietnam and the Middle East(Lebanon) we simply do not learn from the past, when shall we.

Well said dude.
You'd think they would learn something from their experience in Iraq,but we both know that thats not the case and that Bush is probably planning his next attack on another poor country for the sake of WMD or some other nonesence.
I really dont know what it takes for those who are brainwashed to wake up and see how much harm this administration is causing to the world.

blah blah brainwashing pick a new argument for a change. We are brainwashed just as much as you are by the people who hate bush.

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil blah blah brainwashing pick a new argument for a change. We are brainwashed just as much as you are by the people who hate bush.

Give me one good reason NOT to hate Bush.

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil thats why there are [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags

he didn't use them.

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen Apearantly you didn't read my entire statement, here, maybe you should re-read what I wrote: "If you don't like how American's foreign policy effects your country then YOU need to elect a government in your country that is capable of negotiating changes with the American government and if that still doesn't make the change you desire then YOUR government needs to spend YOUR tax money on an army to try and force change upon my country (haha good luck)." WE DID TRY TO CHANGE IRAQ's FOREIGN POLICY TOWARDS THE WORLD, they refused to change, so we forced them to change using our army. I'm not being a hippocrite, you're just being illiterate.

Illiterate?? I think brainwashed people such as yourself who haven't even for a second just thought about this whole thing from another point of view are the ones who are illiterate. You only listen to CNN and what the whitehouse has to say. You never think for a second, "what if the rest of the world wanted to change our policy with thier military power?" Just for once...put yourself in someone else's shoes and think for a minute. I know I sure as shit wouldn't appreciate another country marching into my nation just because they think we're doing something wrong. Wake up, man.

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen That's irrelevent. The original statement was that he wasn't fairly eleected. According to the rules of the US government he was.

And you believe that? Have you looked into it at all? There is actually a lot of speculation he didn't. And it's not because people just didn't like him at first, or because the election went a little funny. It was because of all the people in charge of the election that are extremely close to Bush. He even has friends/family in the media. This guy has more ties than you can think. Fuck, I'm not saying that I believe every word of what Micheal Moore has to say..but have you seen Fahrenheit 9/11? There is so much information in that movie that simply shows the whole thing from a different perspective. It's possible it's not 100% accurate, but still could possibly generate some other ideas in your head other than the ones that CNN and the Whitehouse put there.

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Originally posted by Wrench Illiterate?? I think brainwashed people such as yourself who haven't even for a second just thought about this whole thing from another point of view are the ones who are illiterate. You only listen to CNN and what the whitehouse has to say. You never think for a second, "what if the rest of the world wanted to change our policy with thier military power?" Just for once...put yourself in someone else's shoes and think for a minute. I know I sure as shit wouldn't appreciate another country marching into my nation just because they think we're doing something wrong. Wake up, man.

well said,but Some people dont want to think outside the box,they just choose to believe simply from what media tells them to.

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And you believe that? Have you looked into it at all? There is actually a lot of speculation he didn't. And it's not because people just didn't like him at first, or because the election went a little funny. It was because of all the people in charge of the election that are extremely close to Bush. He even has friends/family in the media. This guy has more ties than you can think. Fuck, I'm not saying that I believe every word of what Micheal Moore has to say..but have you seen Fahrenheit 9/11? There is so much information in that movie that simply shows the whole thing from a different perspective. It's possible it's not 100% accurate, but still could possibly generate some other ideas in your head other than the ones that CNN and the Whitehouse put there.

ooh no Did you say Michael Moore??
you are soooooo biased. jk


But that movie is good to watch,you dont have to believe everything u see in it,but it sure does make one think.I thought it was a great film.For those who think it was biased ok fine,but tell me this if this filme only seem to show how stupid and bad Bush is,but really is there a good side of Bush?? what good has he done to this world??Do Americans feel safer having a business who doenst know sit about the world running their country??

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer well said,but Some people dont want to think outside the box,they just choose to believe simply from what media tells them to. ooh no Did you say Michael Moore?? you are soooooo biased. jk But that movie is good to watch,you dont have to believe everything u see in it,but it sure does make one think.I thought it was a great film.For those who think it was biased ok fine,but tell me this if this filme only seem to show how stupid and bad Bush is,but really is there a good side of Bush?? what good has he done to this world??Do Americans feel safer having a business who doenst know sit about the world running their country??

hehe, yea! True, we can't believe everything he says, but seeing something from a different perspective is something we should all do once in a while.

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Originally posted by Wrench hehe, yea! True, we can't believe everything he says, but seeing something from a different perspective is something we should all do once in a while.

Exactly

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That is opinion.

I thought it was very plain that it was an opinion but thank you for making sure the rest of us are up on conversational logistics.

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Get over it, already.

Isn't this the political forum, everyone should get over it then, and only post happy thoughts that agree with everyone else�s'

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Originally posted by Q5echo huge, huge hypothetical. the following art. is from Feb. this year.http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&sec...d=27&m=2&y=2004

Well...muqtada's forces and honor amongst his supporters is certainly threatening enough for the US military to have once put a bounty on his head seeing that they feared his influence would become greater by the day.

So its not that huge of a hypothetical situation... there is certianly much anymosity towards the occupation forces. The Iraqi's want America OUT.. plain and simple.. and they do not want an government bent on following every order america gives them.

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What Iraqi's want and what you may want are two different things.

I do not want religious fanaticism to rule any nation. that is already indirectly the cause of the shit that has hit the fan in your current governments presidential term.

I beleive that a government shouldnt be INSTALLED.. there should be a TRUE election with people that want who they choose to be the leaders.

Stop beleiving that the current government is what the iraqi's want....if this was the case..the place wouldnt be in chaos.

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen WE DID TRY TO CHANGE IRAQ's FOREIGN POLICY TOWARDS THE WORLD, they refused to change, so we forced them to change using our army. I'm not being a hippocrite, you're just being illiterate.

YOU ARE STILL INTERFERING IN ANOTHER NATIONS GOVERNMENT THAT YOU YOURSELF ARE NOT A CITIZEN OF!!!!!!!

can you not even see the hipocracy in your arguement?

why am i even trying to persuade this douche bag.. its Fuzzy green for fuks sake.

Shakka:

quote:

While I'm sure the U.S. wouldn't condone it and would probably try to pursuade them otherwise--ultimately I believe the administration is committed to giving the Iraqis that choice.

"If you're suggesting, how would we feel about an Iranian-type government with a few clerics running everything in the country, the answer is: That isn't going to happen." - Donald Rumsfeld (April 24, 2003).

There's also been a lot of wrangling over the role religion will play in the new Iraqi constitution. The US went to a lot of effort to ensure that - against the will of the majority of Iraqi people - that Islam wasn't constitutionally enshrined as the national religion of Iraq:

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As Iraq writes a new constitution in the coming months, one word will be key: Allah. Some congressional Republicans worry that the country will shed its secular history and officially turn into an Islamic state, with a constitution that says Islam is its national religion. To try to steer Baghdad's constitutional process away from establishing an official Islamic state, two lawmakers, Sen. Sam Brownback (R., Kan.) and Rep. Frank Wolf (R., Va.), tucked freedom-of-religion provisions into the Senate and House versions of legislation that would send almost $87 billion to Iraq. The provisions would instruct the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority to work with Iraq to make sure the new constitution contains specific language to protect religious freedom. While each chamber's version differs slightly, compromise language is expected to pass Congress this week along with the overall $87 billion spending bill.

http://www.constitutioncenter.org/e...wire/9634.shtml

Must be the first time Republicans have ever funded an initiative aimed at reducing the scope of religion in government. Maybe now they'll push for greater church / state separation at home as well?

In the end, a compromise was reached, though the relationship between Islamic law and eventual Iraqi law is still not clear:

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The relationship between religious law and individual liberty remains unclear. Islam is to be relied on as "a source" for Iraqi laws, and the constitution states that no law may contradict either Islamic law or the guarantees of individual rights. This was a compromise between those urging that Islam be regarded as "the source," implying that Islamic sharia� law should be the sole basis for new laws, and those, especially women, concerned that Islamic law would undermine the constitution�s individual rights. Islam was also identified as the state religion of Iraq (similar to most Arab constitutions), though religious freedom included in the individual rights. U.S. officials including Paul Bremer had already announced they would veto any constitution that in their view would make Iraq an "Islamic state."

http://www.alternatives.ca/article1171.html

(That entire article is actually a good summary of the Iraqi constitution, for those interested.)

In any case, the way that power in the new Iraqi government will be split up, will still ensure that despite making up about 60% of the Iraqi population, the Shiites (the most religious and unpredictable of the main ethnic / religious groups in Iraq) will not be able to enforce any agenda upon Iraq. The balance of power will still be tipped in favour of the Sunnis.

NYCTrancefan:

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Don't you know that many conservatives are under the impression that they can control the actions of people the world over by simple application of military power and their own ideologies.

It's called cultural hegemony. That's essentially what the Neo-Cons are all about (just read the PNAC website for Christ's sake :-/).

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I heard a retarted commentary by a conservative woman who has a radio show on the other day use this argument "Between Bush and Kerry who would the terrorists be more scared of"

The irony is that Bush's single-minded, unilateral, aggressively hegenomic approach to foreign affairs is a greater advertisement to terrorist groups than even the weakest possible president (which Kerry certainly isn't) could ever be. His aggression against Islamic states just fosters fundamentalist thought and drives young Islamic men towards militant extremism. I mean more Americans have died from terrorist attacks in 2003 and 2004 than in any other year in history except 2001 - shouldn't that tell you something about the idiocy of the War on Terror as it is currently being waged? As you quite rightly point out, you can't scare someone into submission when they aren't even afraid of dying and Iraq is a far bigger terrorist threat now (due to all the terrorist groups that flooded over the borders as soon as Baghdad fell) than it was prior to the latest Iraqi war. How people fail to see this and to see what a gigantic waste of resources the conflict was - in the context of the war on terror - just boggles the mind.

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Originally posted by Renegade http://www.constitutioncenter.org/e...wire/9634.shtml Must be the first time Republicans have ever funded an initiative aimed at reducing the scope of religion in government. Maybe now they'll push for greater church / state separation at home as well?

Why be surprised? They're more than happy to reduce religious the scope of religion in governments....

that aren't their own, that is. Brownback is one of the biggest overzealous religious turds in the Senate. Time after time he spoke of his co-sponsored Federal Gay Marriage Bill about how it hinders the family, sighting the Danish study as evidence. Funny how it came to be that this study was seriously flawed in drawing its conclusions, considering the decline in Danish marriages was occurring years BEFORE they legally allowed gay marriages. It's always fun to see zealots like Brownback talk of gay marriage as if its some sort of disease that will affect hetero marriages.

Anyways, just one little tidbit example.

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If you don't like how American's foreign policy effects your country then YOU need to elect a government in your country that is capable of negotiating changes with the American government and if that still doesn't make the change you desire then YOUR government needs to spend YOUR tax money on an army to try and force change upon my country (haha good luck)."

And since when does another country has to change everything to please the U.S? **sigh** First thing "americans" (or better U.S. citizens, since there is more than just the "U.S." in America...In case you "americans" didn't know there is South America and Central America...) should realize that no, you DON'T own the world. Second, no you can't do whatever you want! because of the very simple reason that you are not alone in this world.

Then, no country, I don't care if it is the U.S., Russia, England or whatever, should mess with other countries government. I don't get what's this huge deal that the U.S. has now, w/ bringing down the cuban government. See, you can't force people to change if they don't want to.

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YOUR tax money on an army to try and force change upon my country (haha good luck).

**sigh** If you would open your eyes a little, you would see that not all countries are like yours...with the "bigger, better, stronger" kind of crap; and by the way, the U.S. is one (if not the only) country in the world that lives to mess w/ other countries government, just because it can't handle the fact that other people have different beliefs and points of views.

(oh and something else, even if george w. bush doesn't win the election...there's the other candidate kerry, which I'm pretty sure will be the same or even worse than bush...)

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