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-- Euro Anti-Semitism Watch
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Originally posted by FederalBI your having the same problem people in europe had 60 years ago. there are tones of anti semitism for example in france but most of it ,is too small to get to the papers or to the NEWS on television you think anti semitism is only when someone drawing on jewish tombstones , or when someone burning synagogue. NO! anti semitisim is also when your being cursed becasue your jew or when someone don't want to talk to you because your jew. don't bullshit me about how can any one take us seriously , that phrase made me so mad don't you think jews learned their lesson when we had 6 milion dead people !? so cut the crap.

Have you been to France recently - and in the unlikely event that the answer to that is "yes", then where? If "no" you are talking of something you know nothing about.

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Originally posted by FederalBI i can do what i want in matter of fact. if you grand parents weren't in the holocaust you wouldn't understand just as them , you wouldn't care just as them. as far as i care you save your tought to your self

St. Andrew did a good job of replying to this one, but I'll add that your reasoning - even if it was uniquely decipherable - is deeply fallacious: Just because your grandparents experienced something years ago, that doesn't entail that you would be any more knowledgeable about current events.
Furthermore, your posts give an impression of someone who does not give a flying f*ck about anyone else but Jews, which incidentally is not the best behaviour for getting sympathy.

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Originally posted by tupsox I'll repeat myself: France has such a good history of protecting it's Jewish population

Gee, you make it sound like Jews is some helpless species of salamanders.

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Originally posted by tupsox If the French were mostly saints as you would like to imply, they did a pretty lousy job protecting their Jews in World War II when they collaborated with the Nazis to have them deported and sent to camps. ... When a nation has tens if not hundreds of thousands of deaths and blood on its hand, I think the burden of proof is on THEM to show that they're actually decent people...I have little to prove because the facts of history should speak for themselves.

I do not like to imply that French people are saints - why on earth is it so hard for rabbid fanatics to understand that it *is* possible to have a non-hate non-love relation to someone?
Second, your logic presupposes that abstaining from interfering when others are subjected to a crime, makes you accesary to that crime. I do not believe that is a clear moral self-evident truth. Third, [sarcasm-mode-on] why didn't the Jews do a better job of protecting their Messiahs? How about not trying to assasinate their great philosophers (Spinoza)? And rallying behind their great leaders (Rabin)? I guess the burden of proof is on Jews to show that they are actually decent people...[sarcasm-mode-off]

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Originally posted by tupsox Do you really need me to post pages of pictures and stories from the last year of blatant and rabid Jew-hatred from Europe

considering the title of this thread and

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Originally posted by tupsox As we all know, Jewish cemeteries have been defaced all over Europe in recent years.

and

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Originally posted by tupsox But when Europeans start forgetting, or excusing their treachery of World War II

yes, I would really like you to back up your accusations. Otherwise, consider yourself ignored as a racist propagandaist.

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Originally posted by Yoepus The concern is not to sterotype the Europeans as all being anti-semitic. You aren't.

Glad that one has settled in by now

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Originally posted by Yoepus However, you are dismissing the core here: The fact of our argument is that Europe has a new problem with anti-semitism. You are denying the fact that Europe has this problem. We are simply pointing out and saying, Look Europe you have a problem and you better think about ways of dealing with it before it becomes a really big issue. However, from my experience, and with statements such as yours above, I believe you simply do not recognize this problem. Europe is in denial.

My agenda was not to deny anything - and I really cannot see how you would read that from my post. I tried to point out that the manner the topic is discussed in this thread is absurd, and hurts the sympathy for Jews rather than boradens it.
I do, however, deny that *Europe* has a big problem with anti-semitism specifically. I think that Europe has a big problem with Arab youths who reject the European mentality and let their identity be dictated by that of being a gangmember. In France there's a lot of Jews, so there these people can turn their aggressions towards the Jews - playing along the global tension between Jews and Arabs. In other countries they attack you for any other "reason". So what you percieve as a pure anti-semitism problem, I see as something larger.
Of course, you will always have the odd incidents of neo-nazism and defacement of cemetaries, churches etc. But I have yet to see evidence that there has been any rise in those?

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Originally posted by Yoepus Obviously, the Frenchmen had no intent to mentally respect the memorial they visited, yet their political correctness most likely forced them to visit the 'tourist attraction'. You Europeans are crazy.

There you go with that jest-racism again

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Gee, you make it sound like Jews is some helpless species of salamanders.

What a pile of historically ignorant crap. The collaborationist Vichy government helped the Nazis deport Jews to the death camps. This was nothing unique to France. As mentioned previously in the thread, with the except of Bulgaria and most of the Scandinavian countries, every nation of Europe assisted in helping the Nazis with the Jewish problem. The extermination of Jews wasn't carried out only by the Nazis, it was THE ENTIRE CONTINENT OF EUROPE. Perhaps your history classes neglected to mention it, because the past can be so....inconvenient?

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Second, your logic presupposes that abstaining from interfering when others are subjected to a crime, makes you accesary to that crime. I do not believe that is a clear moral self-evident truth.

I would tend to agree, but last time the French tried this it got a few dozen thousand Jews killed.

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Third, [sarcasm-mode-on] why didn't the Jews do a better job of protecting their Messiahs? How about not trying to assasinate their great philosophers (Spinoza)? And rallying behind their great leaders (Rabin)? I guess the burden of proof is on Jews to show that they are actually decent people...[sarcasm-mode-off]

I think most Jews were shocked and mortified when Rabin was assassinated, even those who disagreed with his peace-making efforts. He was, after all, an Israeli war hero.

Ok, some links (and copy/paste when the original article is no longer available online) for you:
Boy stabbed in anti-Semitic attack in Belgium

Mural by Jewish child prisoners in WW2 desecrated in France (from Ha'aretz).

quote:

PARIS - Vandals have desecrated a mural painted by Jewish children during World War Two in a transit camp in southern France where they were held before deportation to Nazi Germany, police said Sunday. The desecration, which a historian reported to police Friday, follows a recent rise in anti-Semitic crimes in France, home to Europe�s largest Jewish community of some 600,000. The mural, a painting of a countryside scene, was found almost completed chipped away. Vandals smashed through a wall to get at the mural, which was protected by bars. The abandoned site outside Perpignan, near the French border with Spain, served as a transit camp from 1941 to 1942 under France�s collaborationist Vichy regime. Some 2,000 Jews were held there. Most were then moved to Drancy, near Paris, and then to Nazi concentration camps.

French Cemetary vandalism, April 30 2004


Center in France Set on Fire (March 23 2004 from AP).

quote:

The assailants broke a window at the center in the southwestern city of Toulon and doused the interior with a flammable liquid that was then set on fire, police said. Several walls were blackened by flames, but there were no injuries. It was not clear who carried out the attack, but officials note that such violence tends to coincide with rising Mideast tensions. A day earlier, Israel assassinated Sheik Ahmed Yassin, founder and spiritual leader of militant group Hamas. Yves Haddad, who leads the local Jewish community, expressed �disgust and sadness� at the attack, saying it might be �an importation of what�s happening in the Middle East.� �If they wanted to scare us, they made a mistake,� Haddad said.

Jewish cemetery at Auschwitz vandalized

Vandals Put Swastikas on Graves in France (November 26, 2003 from AP)

quote:

PARIS - Vandals desecrated tombs at a Jewish cemetery in southern France, carving swastikas and other Nazi symbols into the headstones, officials said Tuesday. Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin condemned the attack in Marseille as a "hateful manifestation of anti-Semitism." Seven tombs at the Trois-Lucs cemetery were covered with graffiti or damaged by pelted rocks, said Alain Marc, an official at the regional prefecture. French President Jacques Chirac promised a tough crackdown on anti-Semitism after an arson attack on a Jewish school outside Paris this month. There were no injuries, but the building was gutted. In the last two years, France has suffered a wave of violence against Jewish schools, temples and cemeteries that coincided with new fighting in the Middle East. Many of the attacks have been blamed on young Muslims

Vandals in Germany Deface Memorial (July 26 2003 from NewsDay).

quote:

MAGDEBURG, Germany -- Vandals defaced a memorial to Nazi slave labor camp victims, plastering the former camp buildings with anti-Semitic newspapers, police said Tuesday. Visitors to the Langenstein-Zwieberge memorial found the damage Monday. Police said vandals used copies of newspapers from 1933 to 1945, the years the Nazis ruled Germany. There were no arrests. The vandalized buildings had been a satellite of the Buchenwald concentration camp. The Nazis used the subcamp, built in 1944, to house slave laborers building an underground aircraft factory. About 5,000 people were interned at the camp, and more than half are believed to have died.

These are just what I have saved on my computer from the last year, and only scratches the surface of the extent of the problem.

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Originally posted by trancaholic I do, however, deny that *Europe* has a big problem with anti-semitism specifically. I think that Europe has a big problem with Arab youths who reject the European mentality and let their identity be dictated by that of being a gangmember. In France there's a lot of Jews, so there these people can turn their aggressions towards the Jews - playing along the global tension between Jews and Arabs. In other countries they attack you for any other "reason". So what you percieve as a pure anti-semitism problem, I see as something larger. Of course, you will always have the odd incidents of neo-nazism and defacement of cemetaries, churches etc. But I have yet to see evidence that there has been any rise in those?

Perceptive. Also of concern is that Arab birth rates are many times those of other Europeans. What will Europe be like in 30 years with such a large, unassimilated minority (or perhaps even majority, in some cases). I belive the key word here is "unassimilated", as you too alluded to.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic I do, however, deny that *Europe* has a big problem with anti-semitism specifically. I think that Europe has a big problem with Arab youths who reject the European mentality and let their identity be dictated by that of being a gangmember.

There you go confirming my sterotypes that Europe is in denial....

Whether you want to call it a 'big problem' or a 'problem', Europe (and by Europe I mean old Europe, for your clarification )has a problem with antisemitism.

It is not he Arabs that are necessairly the problem.
Recongize that you have a problem with antisemitism, then you can recognize the causes - and yes some of the causes are from the growing Arab populations.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus There you go confirming my sterotypes that Europe is in denial.... Whether you want to call it a 'big problem' or a 'problem', Europe (and by Europe I mean old Europe, for your clarification )has a problem with antisemitism. It is not he Arabs that are necessairly the problem. Recongize that you have a problem with antisemitism, then you can recognize the causes - and yes some of the causes are from the growing Arab populations.

okay, we have the nazis, which at least my government does everything possible to stop, and i guess that's the same for all the governments in europe.

but amongst the normal population, i have NEVER seen anything that could indicate anti-semitism

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Originally posted by St_Andrew but amongst the normal population, i have NEVER seen anything that could indicate anti-semitism

*cough*insulting artwork*cough*

sorry I think I might be coming up with a cold.

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Originally posted by Yoepus *cough*insulting artwork*cough* sorry I think I might be coming up with a cold.

i still don't think that was anti semetism tho, escpecially since it was a jew who did it....

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Originally posted by Yoepus *cough*insulting artwork*cough* sorry I think I might be coming up with a cold.

the things you guys want to always bring up..lol

I think it was already established that the art work was actually up to the observer to percieve it the way they wanted.

A picture of a palestinian smiling in what appears to be a pool of blood actually villify's the bomber in my opinion.

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Originally posted by tupsox If the French were mostly saints as you would like to imply, they did a pretty lousy job protecting their Jews in World War II when they collaborated with the Nazis to have them deported and sent to camps.

Well, considering their otherwise great job of protecting themselves, it's hardly something you can blame them for...but I agree with occrider, they do seem to have some sort of a swastika fetish...

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Originally posted by Yoepus It is not he Arabs that are necessairly the problem. Recongize that you have a problem with antisemitism, then you can recognize the causes - and yes some of the causes are from the growing Arab populations.

Ok, apparently we disagree on the existence/nature of the problem. I would think that I know best because I live here, but then again, you are the Jew so maybe you are the one knowing this issue best.

But let's suppose that you are right: A growing part of the population of Europe is anti-semitic. Not as a consequence of Israel's conduct in relation to Palestineans and the UN, but genuine illogical hate. Now, what would you have us do?

quote:

Originally posted by tupsox Perceptive. Also of concern is that Arab birth rates are many times those of other Europeans. What will Europe be like in 30 years with such a large, unassimilated minority (or perhaps even majority, in some cases). I belive the key word here is "unassimilated", as you too alluded to.

Agree, too bad that it is not PC to point to the problem, yet alone call it a problem.

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Originally posted by tupsox What a pile of historically ignorant crap. The collaborationist Vichy government helped the Nazis deport Jews to the death camps. This was nothing unique to France. As mentioned previously in the thread, with the except of Bulgaria and most of the Scandinavian countries, every nation of Europe assisted in helping the Nazis with the Jewish problem. The extermination of Jews wasn't carried out only by the Nazis, it was THE ENTIRE CONTINENT OF EUROPE. Perhaps your history classes neglected to mention it, because the past can be so....inconvenient?

There you go again, generalizing from collaborating governments in occupied countries to "THE ENTIRE CONTINENT". Tell me (seeing that I have been lied to all through my education), did any country *which was not occupied by Nazi-Germany* deport Jews to KZ-camps? All it takes is a morally bankrupt collaborating government to cast a shadow over the entire population.

quote:

Originally posted by tupsox I think most Jews were shocked and mortified when Rabin was assassinated, even those who disagreed with his peace-making efforts. He was, after all, an Israeli war hero.

Again, all it takes is a little group of extreme right-wingers. That was pretty much my point: If we apply your reasons for condemning the French of today, we should do the same to practically all other people on the planet, including Jews.

quote:

Originally posted by tupsox Ok, some links ... These are just what I have saved on my computer from the last year, and only scratches the surface of the extent of the problem.

Not impressed, all but one of the links are about France or its baby brother Belgium. That hardly gives you the right to state those sweeping generalizations that you do.

Btw. Have you been to Europe?

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, considering their otherwise great job of protecting themselves, it's hardly something you can blame them for...but I agree with occrider, they do seem to have some sort of a swastika fetish...

I'd agree if the French didn't collaborate to deport (and therefore, kill) their Jews.

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Originally posted by trancaholic There you go again, generalizing from collaborating governments in occupied countries to "THE ENTIRE CONTINENT". Tell me (seeing that I have been lied to all through my education), did any country *which was not occupied by Nazi-Germany* deport Jews to KZ-camps? All it takes is a morally bankrupt collaborating government to cast a shadow over the entire population.

True, but not every occupied/axis country assisted in deporting its Jews. See Finland, Bulgaria.

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Again, all it takes is a little group of extreme right-wingers. That was pretty much my point: If we apply your reasons for condemning the French of today, we should do the same to practically all other people on the planet, including Jews.

Running with this example, Israel outlawed and forcefully banned the Kahane Chai movement after Baruch Goldstein went berserk and murdered 30 praying Muslim. Similarly, after the alleged Deir Yassin massacre, the Haganah (Israel's main defence force) forcefully disarmed the perpetrating group, the Irgun. Now, I think in the past few months, European governments have been making progress fighting anti-Semitism, France in particular.

quote:

Not impressed, all but one of the links are about France or its baby brother Belgium. That hardly gives you the right to state those sweeping generalizations that you do. Btw. Have you been to Europe?

Yes, though not extensively. Europe is by no means a "Nazi shithole" or anything like that. But it does have an anti-Semitism problem in its mist; some of this a result of Muslim immigration, some of it rooted much deeper (like at the Lazio-Juventus match a few years back when one of the sections held up a giant banner "Jews to the gas! Auschwitz is your home" or something to that extent...that really freaked me out). Any hate can and will grow if unchecked, with disasterous results. I'll concede I've been a tad broad in my generalizations; though Europe has a duty more than anyone else to fight anti-Semitism in particular because of what it has led to in the past.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic But let's suppose that you are right: A growing part of the population of Europe is anti-semitic. Not as a consequence of Israel's conduct in relation to Palestineans and the UN, but genuine illogical hate. Now, what would you have us do?

Haha, good question, really it's not like our governments aren't doing anything about it.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Haha, good question, really it's not like our governments aren't doing anything about it.

what are they doing? is it realy enough?

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Originally posted by Flotser what are they doing? is it realy enough?

All kind of informitive things.
All the media is strongly against it and have propaganda all the time.
It's (unlike in the US) illegal.
Racist (incl anti semitism) has high priority with the police.

etc. really i don't know what more you could do.

that is of course sweden, could be otherwise in other countries... but don't think it is that different

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew All kind of informitive things. All the media is strongly against it and have propaganda all the time. It's (unlike in the US) illegal. Racist (incl anti semitism) has high priority with the police. etc. really i don't know what more you could do. that is of course sweden, could be otherwise in other countries... but don't think it is that different

True. The general media here put anti-semitism high on the agenda. A lot of editorials discuss the subject on an almost regular basis. Our government has made it a key point to make the history of the holocaust a high priority in schools and recently we have had high profile international conferences about it in Sweden.

Germany is very active against neo-nazism and anti-semitism. They probably have the most strict laws regarding these issues compared to anywhere else. Even just being in possession of a nazi item is illegal.

However, as long as we do not live in perfect utopias there will always be individuals or group of people who blame there own shortfalls or miserable positions on other groups. We'll never get 100% rid of groups like the neo-nazis. And that goes for the US as well.

Sure, anti-semitism is a problem, but so is other hate crimes against arabs, homosexuals, you name it.

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Originally posted by Dj_Irish Germany is very active against neo-nazism and anti-semitism. They probably have the most strict laws regarding these issues compared to anywhere else. Even just being in possession of a nazi item is illegal.

Funny thing is that in Denmark it is legal to be a Nazi, and it is legal for them to have their own radio, hand out leaflets, march in the streets etc. Yet, we have very very few hate crimes against Arabs - even though they constitute a large part of our population. To me that's a strong indication that outlawing freedom of speech/expression is a bad idea. When people are allowed to say whatever they like they don't build up inner tension which ultimately ends in violence.

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Originally posted by Dj_Irish Sure, anti-semitism is a problem, but so is other hate crimes against arabs, homosexuals, you name it.

A year ago an Italian back-packer was stabbed to death in Copenhagen while trying to buy some pot. The people of Copenhagen was very upset about this, and there was a lot of sympathy protests.
Just recently, marking the one year anniversary of his death people have put flowers on the spot. And here comes the interesting fact: during nightfall some person or persons have been burning these flowers - just to cause havoc, get attention, or whatever.
My point is, if that student had happened to be a Jew, you would see this vandalism mentioned in all the international media, crying out about anti-semitism. And I think that sometimes the reported cases of anti-semitism really isn't, but rather vandalism that is sure to get attention.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic My point is, if that student had happened to be a Jew, you would see this vandalism mentioned in all the international media, crying out about anti-semitism. And I think that sometimes the reported cases of anti-semitism really isn't, but rather vandalism that is sure to get attention.

My thoughts exactly. Although I'm not suggesting that every action against jews is a general attention seeking thing I do believe that a lot of it is. Especially the vandalism scenarios since they will always get heavy and immediate media attention. At least around here.

Looks like its time to make this thread a sticky.

Notre Dame Hit With Anti-Semitic Graffiti

quote:

PARIS - Anti-Semitic graffiti, including a sign saying "death to Jews," was found Saturday scrawled on the grounds of the Notre Dame cathedral in Paris

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