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quote:

Originally posted by Michael19 is funding for FBI and CIA included in military funding?

No it is not, those are 2 very different organizations with different capabilities and roles.

I'm a pretty nice guy.

You can't take the actions of a few nut-jobs around the world who happen to be in the military and blame in on brainwashing.

With that being said, I think the military tries to brainwash you. Not to do the shit you said; more realistically, to respect people with more rank than you and be supportive of the military cause.

Neither worked for me, hence me getting out in a year - and as for respect, you have to earn it to me, it's not automatically given to you just because you're older or have a higher "position". However, these things are needed in military warfare. I'm just not cut-out for it for life.

Getting out in a year? Chapter 13,14, or 15? You're beyond the entry level separation.


[[[smoke]]]

Audio Sweet - Sunshine After the Rain (Club Mix)

Did ******** just say that police are trained to kill? Killing is the last thing the police try to do. Even if they shoot you with a handgun they don't go for a killing shot. But far short of that they will try anything else such as mace, tasers, rubber bullets, shotguns that shoot beanbags, tear gas, and/or strength of numbers to take someone down.

The police and the military are both constantly trying to invent wacky nonlethal weapons that might effectively take down individuals or a group of people in various environments while doing the least amount of damage to the enemy(ies)/criminal(s) as possible.

The military imposes its will by force of arms. The military is directed to do so by civilian authority who know the consequences of doing so. The military does not murder because they are given legal authority by their government to impose their will.

Sounds about right, huh?


[[[smoke]]]

Marc Aurel - Running

Re: Re: People in the Military.

quote:

Originally posted by smokeape I'll reserve comment for the orignal thread. I'm retired from the military, continue to work for the military as a civilian, and take offense about your generalizations that anyone in service is brainwashed. We are highly disciplined and obediently follow orders which civilians can't understand when our very lives can be in jeopardy by doing so. Killing other combatants in a wartime environ is humanless. The people you kill are trying to kill you as well. Killing people in general is not acceptable although collateral deaths occur when innocents get in the way of fighting. US troops are given ethical training routinely about the laws of land warfare to prevent occurences of the slaughter of innocents such as Mei Lei in Vietnam. Basically the training reiterates that you shouldn't intentionally be killing noncombatants regardless of the orders of a superior which is inherently and morally wrong. The US inculcates a Values system of training as well to instill right from wrong in its troops. Of course no system is infallible and you have transgressions such as the Abu Gharib prison abuse which belies the teachings and training the soldiers were brought up in. To counter your arguments, I would point out that the incidents of abuse or transgression of the rules pertaining to noncombatants are very few and far between in the ongoing war. I'd also like to point out that the barbaric beheading of military and noncombatant prisoners without trial or due process speaks volumes about the differences between the conduct of our soldiers and that of the insurgents in Iraq and elsewhere. Don't criticize the military if you only pretend to know the culture. [[[smoke]]]

So what happens if an order defies a person's own moral beliefs? Can he or she defy an order on these grounds?

Or does the military training ensure that a decision that is morally right is the same as the order you are given?

A basic human right, something that seperates us from the animals at least, is the ability to make decisions based upon our own moral viewpoint, and this is something that can be taken away when in the armed forces. By inference such a job requires selling a large part of your soul.

But as you point out, its just that civilians don't understand these orders that are given, its not brainwashing at all. Great logic that.

Re: Re: Re: People in the Military.

quote:

Originally posted by spec So what happens if an order defies a person's own moral beliefs? Can he or she defy an order on these grounds? Or does the military training ensure that a decision that is morally right is the same as the order you are given? A basic human right, something that seperates us from the animals at least, is the ability to make decisions based upon our own moral viewpoint, and this is something that can be taken away when in the armed forces. By inference such a job requires selling a large part of your soul. But as you point out, its just that civilians don't understand these orders that are given, its not brainwashing at all. Great logic that.

Point well taken and not explained previously. Military personnel are specifically trained about unlawful orders, such as killing noncombatants. Raping and pillaging are in there as well, but gist is about murder. That kinda informs you I hope so you don't think the soldiers are out there blindly following orders from some moron in charge.


[[[smoke]]]

Ian van Dahl - State of Mind

Re: Re: Re: People in the Military.

quote:

Originally posted by spec So what happens if an order defies a person's own moral beliefs? Can he or she defy an order on these grounds? Or does the military training ensure that a decision that is morally right is the same as the order you are given? A basic human right, something that seperates us from the animals at least, is the ability to make decisions based upon our own moral viewpoint, and this is something that can be taken away when in the armed forces. By inference such a job requires selling a large part of your soul. But as you point out, its just that civilians don't understand these orders that are given, its not brainwashing at all. Great logic that.

Your argument might hold merit if the military were structured in such a way that a soldier must obey a commanding officer above any other consideration without question, however, that is not the case. The US military, and most militaries I would imagine, have specific codes of justice whereby they have an "out" should their commanding order violate such codes. These codes all contain the basic precepts of agreed upon international standards such as the geneva and hague conventions as well additional measures. Therefore, unless your orders compromise these set of standards, than you do as your told because a democratic military isn't much of a military.

Re: Re: Re: People in the Military.

quote:

Originally posted by spec So what happens if an order defies a person's own moral beliefs? Can he or she defy an order on these grounds?

What an awesome thought. I think you should make a war movie about this issue! Why it would make millions!

Re: Re: Re: Re: People in the Military.

quote:

Originally posted by smokeape Point well taken and not explained previously. Military personnel are specifically trained about unlawful orders, such as killing noncombatants. Raping and pillaging are in there as well, but gist is about murder. That kinda informs you I hope so you don't think the soldiers are out there blindly following orders from some moron in charge. [[[smoke]]] Ian van Dahl - State of Mind

What if the order is in fact lawful, not in regards to rape or murder, but is still against someone's morals?

Can you picture this situation, because it is possible, or do I need to provide a theoretical example for you to get the drift?

What kind of idiot joins the military if they don't believe in the law that the military is based upon?

since when do "Were you in the military" posts turn into "bash on the military and question its every move" post

shut the fuck up people, your own militaries in your respective countries protect your ass from a fuck like Osama or Sloban Milosevic waltzing in there and thinking "Hmm I don't like you, so I'll kill you and take your land"

...2 years Marine Corp Officer Training Program here (yeah yeah bust out your jokes)

Re: Re: Re: Re: People in the Military.

quote:

Originally posted by Radagast What an awesome thought. I think you should make a war movie about this issue! Why it would make millions!

Soldiers are expected to kill combatants when ordered to do so. If a soldier has a problem with that, then he/she becomes a conscientious objector and is normally evacuated to the rear so he/she doesn't put other troops in jeopardy because he/she won't pull the trigger. When bad guys are shooting at our troops it is generally a given that they will return fire when told to do so. If they don't, then they can be charged with a variety of military offenses, including cowardice. Hate to keep the conversation alive here with a bunch of civilians, but its good for all concerned I reckon so keep it going anyhow.


[[[smoke]]]

Trinity X - Forever

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People in the Military.

quote:

Originally posted by smokeape Soldiers are expected to kill combatants when ordered to do so. If a soldier has a problem with that, then he/she becomes a conscientious objector and is normally evacuated to the rear so he/she doesn't put other troops in jeopardy because he/she won't pull the trigger. When bad guys are shooting at our troops it is generally a given that they will return fire when told to do so. If they don't, then they can be charged with a variety of military offenses, including cowardice. Hate to keep the conversation alive here with a bunch of civilians, but its good for all concerned I reckon so keep it going anyhow. [[[smoke]]] Trinity X - Forever

My point was that there have been many, many movies made built around that ever so cliched topic.

quote:

Originally posted by Aristronica since when do "Were you in the military" posts turn into "bash on the military and question its every move" post shut the fuck up people, your own militaries in your respective countries protect your ass from a fuck like Osama or Sloban Milosevic waltzing in there and thinking "Hmm I don't like you, so I'll kill you and take your land" ...2 years Marine Corp Officer Training Program here (yeah yeah bust out your jokes)

You sound like a typical army jock I must say.

Instead of entering into an intelligent debate and using your own personal power of thought, you choose to instead go emotional and pull out well worn cliches that have been entered into your non questioning skull.

Does the end alwazs justify the means? If so, what seperates you from the Osamas and Slobbos of the world?

quote:

Originally posted by Radagast What kind of idiot joins the military if they don't believe in the law that the military is based upon?

So you are an idiot if you have a brain of your own to think with?

As opposed to someone that would simply follow orders?

I think you might have your idiots mixed up.

quote:

Originally posted by spec So you are an idiot if you have a brain of your own to think with? As opposed to someone that would simply follow orders? I think you might have your idiots mixed up.

If they actually had a brain of their own to think with they wouldn't be in the military in the first place. It's their own fault if they join a military which has policies that might severely conflict with their moral beliefs.

There is a homely old adage which runs: "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far." If the American nation will speak softly, and yet build and keep at a pitch of the highest training a thoroughly efficient navy, the Monroe Doctrine will go far.
Theodore Roosevelt (1858 - 1919), Speech in Chicago, 3 Apr. 1903


US military must have a presense hence spending and their budget,.. they must have something to back up what they can do, but their primary goal is peace keeping and at all costs to prevent war...

Saddam was a tyrant and killed and savaged many unnecessary people,... the war was necessary....


history repeats itself and will do so again in the future,...

i am an active US Army Lieutenant,... Field Artillery

and if so deemed necessary i can have many many TAs that knew me prior to my military life to say i have not changed....

quote:

Originally posted by Zewad There is a homely old adage which runs: "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far." If the American nation will speak softly, and yet build and keep at a pitch of the highest training a thoroughly efficient navy, the Monroe Doctrine will go far. Theodore Roosevelt (1858 - 1919), Speech in Chicago, 3 Apr. 1903 US military must have a presense hence spending and their budget,.. they must have something to back up what they can do, but their primary goal is peace keeping and at all costs to prevent war... Saddam was a tyrant and killed and savaged many unnecessary people,... the war was necessary.... history repeats itself and will do so again in the future,... i am an active US Army Lieutenant,... Field Artillery and if so deemed necessary i can have many many TAs that knew me prior to my military life to say i have not changed....

The discussion here is not really related to the war in Iraq solely, but one must admit that you'd probably need someone like Saddam to keep the country in check. And the Saddam's treatment of people in jail probably wasn't as bad as that of the US military. Please don't bother with spin about it was necessary, without any logic to back up this claim.

Seeing as the geneva convention is not being applied on the so-called war on terrorism, would you risk your neck, and position, on treatment inline with these internationally recognised guidelines?

Re: People in the Military.

quote:

Originally posted by spec I wonder if anybody has the displeasure of being in the military service here. It is said that strongest form of brainwashing in the world today is the type that occurs in the armed forces. Not only does this equip personel to do humanless acts whilst serving but also fail to live in society as decent members. In Australia there has just been a case of 2 SAS soldiers being busted for trying to attack a pregnant ex-girlfriend with the aim of her losing the baby from the planned severe beating. The judge questioned the methods of training used with these soldiers because many other members have faced the courts on counts of severe anti-social behaviour. On top of that we've had so many drug scandals with soldiers and a major government enquiry into the suicide of a soldier whilst in training. This enquiry found a culture of abuse within the army. I've read many psychological journals written that suggest that mammals killing their own kind is very unusual in all species, including humans, and massive amounts of mental conditioning needs to take place before it can be done. I wonder what a member of the armed forces would do when faced with an order that defies his/her moral principles? Is there right or wrong, or is it just yes and no?

I don't understand your post. Just because you don't like the military in no way shape or form does it mean anybody else has to hate it. Your examples you give are extemely baseless. It's funny how less then 100 people in the military WORLDWIDE, and i'm not just talking about your example or the prison scandal can bring so called shame to the other millions of troops around the world. Here in the US we are a volunteer force. If you can't follow orders and soley joined to "Get money for college" then it's their own damn fault. While I might not agree with forgein policy all the time, i never say "Better you then me down there" mentallity. If you can't follow a LEGAL order, but goes against your morals.. you should have not joined in the first place.

anything can be considered brainwashing. "psychological journals" in my opinion is form a brainwashing. They put ideas in your head. The media is brainwashing, The goverment is brainwashing, my mom has brainedwashed me. I still iron all my clothes.

quote:

Originally posted by spec [quote]And the Saddam's treatment of people in jail probably wasn't as bad as that of the US military.

hahahah or really? So when people were mad e swim in sewers or when the olympic soccer team lost they were forced to go to a small room where only 1 person could squat at one time and their feet beaten? Oh yeah SADDAM FOR PRESIDENT! You made your claim that The US has a worse prison system yet you made NO claim what so ever. You don't know what i know. (i'm not going to elborate on that because it's really none of your business on that end) But if you are going to argue put some REAL facts othere then the obivious Prison scandal or anything that is not going through an investagation.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbital32 hahahah or really? So when people were mad e swim in sewers or when the olympic soccer team lost they were forced to go to a small room where only 1 person could squat at one time and their feet beaten? Oh yeah SADDAM FOR PRESIDENT! You made your claim that The US has a worse prison system yet you made NO claim what so ever. You don't know what i know. (i'm not going to elborate on that because it's really none of your business on that end) But if you are going to argue put some REAL facts othere then the obivious Prison scandal or anything that is not going through an investagation.

Okay, so the prisoner scandal in Iraq doesn't count, it was probably just a media beat up or a dozen soldiers gone bad right? Idiot, maybe you have been mentally conditioned.

What about Guant�namo Bay?

From amnesty:

Inhuman and illegal detention

In April 2002 the detainees were transferred from the small wire-mesh cages at the temporary Camp X-Ray to the confines of Camp Delta where the majority are held in maximum security blocks in cells even smaller than before, sometimes for up to 24 hours a day and with very little out-of-cell exercise time. The detainees are also subjected to repeated interrogations sometimes for hours at a time and without the presence of a lawyer, raising fears that statements may be extracted under coercion. The ICRC is the only non-governmental organization allowed access to the detainees.

With no opportunity to challenge the lawfulness of their detention and the prospect of indefinite detention without trial in such conditions, the potential psychological impact upon those held is a major concern. The ICRC delegation has stated that it has observed a �worrying deterioration� in the mental health of a large number of the detainees, and that their psychological condition has become a �major problem�. Efforts to obtain justice in the US courts have so far been unsuccessful, with the courts holding that they do not have jurisdiction over the detainees, because they are foreign nationals held outside US sovereign territory.


One of the most serious problems stemming from this is that in exactly the same way the average German citizen in WW2 didn't know about the treatment in concentration camps but have been judged and treated as they did, the American people will be in a way punished for the atrocities committed by those in its armed forces.

A few other posters have indicated that if you actually have a brain and aren't willing to simply follw orders then you shouldn't be in the army. Lucky for the military there are lots of apparently dumb people out there only too willing.

quote:

Originally posted by spec Okay, so the prisoner scandal in Iraq doesn't count, it was probably just a media beat up or a dozen soldiers gone bad right? Idiot, maybe you have been mentally conditioned. What about Guant�namo Bay? From amnesty: Inhuman and illegal detention In April 2002 the detainees were transferred from the small wire-mesh cages at the temporary Camp X-Ray to the confines of Camp Delta where the majority are held in maximum security blocks in cells even smaller than before, sometimes for up to 24 hours a day and with very little out-of-cell exercise time. The detainees are also subjected to repeated interrogations sometimes for hours at a time and without the presence of a lawyer, raising fears that statements may be extracted under coercion. The ICRC is the only non-governmental organization allowed access to the detainees. With no opportunity to challenge the lawfulness of their detention and the prospect of indefinite detention without trial in such conditions, the potential psychological impact upon those held is a major concern. The ICRC delegation has stated that it has observed a �worrying deterioration� in the mental health of a large number of the detainees, and that their psychological condition has become a �major problem�. Efforts to obtain justice in the US courts have so far been unsuccessful, with the courts holding that they do not have jurisdiction over the detainees, because they are foreign nationals held outside US sovereign territory. One of the most serious problems stemming from this is that in exactly the same way the average German citizen in WW2 didn't know about the treatment in concentration camps but have been judged and treated as they did, the American people will be in a way punished for the atrocities committed by those in its armed forces. A few other posters have indicated that if you actually have a brain and aren't willing to simply follw orders then you shouldn't be in the army. Lucky for the military there are lots of apparently dumb people out there only too willing.

we shoudl have been a lot more humaine and just killed them.


and I love the use of "potential psychological impact". I woudl think these guys would expect this kind of treatment since this is what they are trained to administer.



i keep forgetting what your point is here. What are you trying to say, that the american military is bad? or that militaries in general are bad?

Joining the military isn't about college scholarships, making friends, or travelling the world. It's about gambling your life and being directly controlled by the government. Everyone should go into the armed forces with this in mind.

Yes those people are stupid spec. They see a Marines AD on TV showcasing its scholarship plan or a Navy AD showing how great it is to travel the world. Then they join the military thinking that that's what they are going to have to look forward to. Wrong. I guess people in the situations you describe found this out the hard way.

quote:

Originally posted by Radagast Joining the military isn't about college scholarships, making friends, or travelling the world. It's about gambling your life and being directly controlled by the government. It's your fault if you have to learn this the hard way. Yes those people are stupid spec. They see a Marines AD on TV showcasing it's scholarship plan or an Navy AD showing how great it is to travel the world. Making people believe that that's what they are going to have to look forward to. Wrong. I guess people in the situations you describe found this out the hard way.

isn't that a matter of personal perspective?


what you call brainwashing, they call learning to do that job. and being controlled by the government, i would hope they woudl control theri employees.

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