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I'm allowed under my country's law to voice my opinion to any subject or thing that happens in Canada. I'm not stating here that homosexuals should be hated, I don't hate them, I simply view that marriage is a covenant between God and the man and the woman. In the Christian faith, marriage is more than a simple legal document, but I know arctic being the anti religious person he is, will argue it. I think that no country should recognize same sex marriages. They are protected from discrimination under the Canadian Charter of rights and freedoms, I feel that's enough. I signed every single petition that the churches had going against same sex marriages, it was within my freedom of opinion and freedom of religion to do that and I'll continue saying till the day that I die that homosexuality is wrong and it is a sin in my religion. I don't see why with some of you people, just because you believe a religion, you are simply branded wrong.

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Originally posted by torontotrance I'm allowed under my country's law to voice my opinion to any subject or thing that happens in Canada. I'm not stating here that homosexuals should be hated, I don't hate them, I simply view that marriage is a covenant between God and the man and the woman. In the Christian faith, marriage is more than a simple legal document, but I know arctic being the anti religious person he is, will argue it. I think that no country should recognize same sex marriages. They are protected from discrimination under the Canadian Charter of rights and freedoms, I feel that's enough. I signed every single petition that the churches had going against same sex marriages, it was within my freedom of opinion and freedom of religion to do that and I'll continue saying till the day that I die that homosexuality is wrong and it is a sin in my religion. I don't see why with some of you people, just because you believe a religion, you are simply branded wrong.

do you know that you are judging someones existance by the nature of their sexual attraction? And this all coming from words in a book written thousands of years ago?

This is is just too much now... its come to the point of utter stupidity.

What about bisexuals??? are they "half" sinning?

I want to express my rights and freedoms too.. i think all the monotheistic religions should be deemed illegal and all those books be burned into into what it should be - worthless piles of ash

Thank humanity for science...we would be still burning, crucifying and drowning people becuase of their "sins"

I knew you would come out and say that, you can go on about how you think religion is wrong and you do that often. I'm not going to bother wasting my time with your rhetoric, your views won't change my views ever and I'm going to keep standing up for my rights and my personal views.

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Originally posted by torontotrance [QUOTE]I simply view that marriage is a covenant between God and the man and the woman.

You are confusing religious marriage and civil marriage. Civil marriage has nothing to do with your religion, if it did -- then Muslims, non-theists, Hindus and so forth wouldn't be allowed to get married. Nobody is suggesting that your church needs to recognize gay marriage, simply that the government should.

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In the Christian faith, marriage is more than a simple legal document

And that's fine, nobody is saying that it isn't. Again, what your religion thinks about marriage has nothing to do with, well, anything really.

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but I know arctic being the anti religious person he is, will argue it.

TTA, I�m not anti-religion, I generally have no problem with religion or religious people. I do, however, object to you and other religionists trying to force your religion upon others who don't follow it -- which is exactly what Christians and Muslims are doing when it comes to gay marriage.

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They are protected from discrimination under the Canadian Charter of rights and freedoms, I feel that's enough.

Umm, not allowing them to marry is discriminating on them on the basis of sexual orientation.

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I signed every single petition that the churches had going against same sex marriages, it was within my freedom of opinion and freedom of religion to do that

And nobody is suggesting that you shouldn't be allowed to do that. I'm a strong supporter of free speech and I expect always will be. All I�m doing is exercising my right to free speech, and using it to point out that the arguments against gay marriage are authoritarian, absurd and illogical.

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and I'll continue saying till the day that I die that homosexuality is wrong and it is a sin in my religion.

Once again, that's fine -- but that doesn't mean that the government should enforce your religion on others. Truly, if you're interested in a theocracy, take a look at how things work in Iran.

See I think Christians get a bad rap at times because of the actions of a few. I've never forced my beliefs on anyone nor will I, I'm a proud Christian and that's what I'll be till the day I die. Yes I understand that some of you have had others force religion down your throat and you are bitter because of it. I look at it with this analogy, if you force something down your throat, you throw up and the vomit leaves a bad taste in your mouth. The same is with religion and if any of you have had people force religion at you then I feel they are not thinking correctly. I always try follow the Christian beliefs and if someone has a question, I'm more than happy to attempt to answer it and if I need to ask someone I know then I will. In the USA, the Christian right at times is over the top and that's pathetic imo. I'm not forcing my views on anyone but I will stand up for what I believe to be the truth and I don't believe gay marriages should be legal, I'm sorry but that's my view and that's the way it is. Most people that claim to be Christians are not Christian imo, either you live the life or you don't, there is no in between. The Bible says homosexuality is a sin and with the Christian view, there is no exception. We are taught to follow God's word but the Bible also tells us to love others as Christ loved us. I don't hate gays but I'm certainly not going to let them push their agenda into law without a fight. The Canadian courts have ruled for the most part that gay marriages are legal and I can't do anything about that. The country views it as legal but I don't and never will. I think the problem with people today is that they hear this person is a Christian and they immediately jump to generalizations from people that have hurt them in the past. I'm sorry that it happened but people have to understand Christians like me won't just sit around and let our country do things that our religion does not agree with, without voicing our opinions about it. In the last few years, I signed 6 petitions stating that we believe that marriage is a convenant between God and man and wife, I remember my church speaking up about it but we never said hate homosexuals. I think people in today's society tends to jump to conclusions about Christians, for the most part, most of the real Christians tend not to hate anyone but we stand up for our beliefs, which are enshrined in most constitutions.

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Originally posted by torontotrance See I think Christians get a bad rap at times because of the actions of a few. I've never forced my beliefs on anyone nor will I

Err, so why do you want to ban gay marriage because of your religious beliefs? If that's not forcing your religion on others, I don't know what is.

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I'm a proud Christian and that's what I'll be till the day I die. Yes I understand that some of you have had others force religion down your throat and you are bitter because of it. I look at it with this analogy, if you force something down your throat, you throw up and the vomit leaves a bad taste in your mouth. The same is with religion and if any of you have had people force religion at you then I feel they are not thinking correctly. I always try follow the Christian beliefs and if someone has a question, I'm more than happy to attempt to answer it and if I need to ask someone I know then I will.

Nobody has ever really tried to force it down my throat, personally -- but then again, i'm a white straight male, so i'm generally okay. I do of course observe them forcing it down other's throats though -- gay marriage being a prime example.

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In the USA, the Christian right at times is over the top and that's pathetic imo. I'm not forcing my views on anyone but I will stand up for what I believe to be the truth and I don't believe gay marriages should be legal, I'm sorry but that's my view and that's the way it is.

Again, that's fine --but we're still waiting for why you think they should be illegial. You're evading the question here TTA.

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Most people that claim to be Christians are not Christian imo, either you live the life or you don't, there is no in between. The Bible says homosexuality is a sin and with the Christian view, there is no exception. We are taught to follow God's word but the Bible also tells us to love others as Christ loved us.

Do you believe that slavery should be legal? That would be in keeping with what the bible says. What about killing women who've been raped -- the bible condones that as well. Come to think of it, should adultery be illegal? If not, then why not? If you want your religious beliefs to become the law -- then be consistent.

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I don't hate gays but I'm certainly not going to let them push their agenda into law without a fight.

When that 'agenda' is equal rights, I don't see why it shouldn't be put into law.

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I think the problem with people today is that they hear this person is a Christian and they immediately jump to generalizations from people that have hurt them in the past.

In come cases that's undoubtedly true, but when 33% of the world's population is Christian, it's not exactly a major problem. More than 50% of the population in your country (and mine for that matter) are Christians, so you do have the upper hand -- far more people generalize about people who don't follow a religion than the other way around IMHO.

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I'm sorry that it happened but people have to understand Christians like me won't just sit around and let our country do things that our religion does not agree with

So you are forcing your religion on others. Honestly, make your mind up -- you can't have it both ways.

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In the last few years, I signed 6 petitions stating that we believe that marriage is a convenant between God and man and wife, I remember my church speaking up about it but we never said hate homosexuals.

Should Muslims be allowed to get married? What about atheists? FFS Andy, legal marriage has nothing to do with your religion. The entire point is that the government can recognize marriages, irrespective of religion. If we're going to make it a solely religious institution, then which religion will we run with? What about people who don't follow that religion?

Have you even thought this through -- implementing a theocratic marriage law would be a disaster. I don�t think that you understand exactly what you�re proposing here � we�d have to re-write the entire constitution of most western nations and turn them into theocracies.

I said I feel homosexual marriages should be illegal because homosexuality is a sin and marriage is between God and man and a woman.

You failed to see the point I guess

Most of Canada claims to be Christian but if they were really Christian, they would have created more uproar about the gay marriages. So that leads me to believe that most people just claim to be Christian but most are not. See the gay marriage people have claimed the same thing that Christians are not promoting equal rights but my beliefs say it is wrong, so I don't recognize it as right. Arctic, you and me will never agree on anything, you have your opinion that gay marriage should be legal and you are an atheist. I am a Christian and I believe that the Bible states marriage is between a man and a woman. By my views, I believe that I will have to answer to a higher authority at some point and the same thing will happen with you. I don't care what the world thinks about anything, I don't answer to the world, I answer to God and I'm more scared of God than the world. I bought into the world mentality for a while, once in my life, I wanted to see where it would lead me and it nearly drove me to suicide, fortunately I found religion again and I've been content ever since. I'm tired of being told that since I am a Christian, my views don't matter, I'm tired of people trying to push us away.

I have a problem with gays getting married.
However..

Fact of the matter is you cant really provide a valid justification for making it illegal for gays to get married without bringing in religion.

And religion therefore divides the people's stance on this issue even more.

I always thought something about homosexuality did not seem right, even if I did not bring in my religious views into the equation. I never agreed with it to begin with and I won't ever do that.

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Originally posted by torontotrance I always thought something about homosexuality did not seem right, even if I did not bring in my religious views into the equation. I never agreed with it to begin with and I won't ever do that.

I always thought something about eating shrimp did not seem right, even if I did not bring in my religious views into the equation. I never agreed with it to begin with and I won't ever do that.

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Originally posted by torontotrance I always thought something about homosexuality did not seem right, even if I did not bring in my religious views into the equation. I never agreed with it to begin with and I won't ever do that.

Let me say this.


Marriage is about love.

Rite?


Ok so allowing gays to marry...fine..go ahead.

So in that case....
I will go marry my dog.
I will go marry my favorite street sign.
I will go marry my car.
I will go marry my favorite airline service.

If they dont allow it...I will be discriminated upon.


See...you have to draw the line somewhere.
IN this case...marriage. Its a union between the gender of a man and a woman.

Otherwise...Lets just completely distort the meaning of marriage.

Before you reply to this, i'd be grateful if you answered the questions I asked in my previous post -- namely the ones about adultery, killing rape victims, Muslims getting married, establishing a theocracy etc.

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Originally posted by torontotrance I said I feel homosexual marriages should be illegal because homosexuality is a sin and marriage is between God and man and a woman.

There, so you do want to shove your religion down gay's throats. Thanks for the confirmation.

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Most of Canada claims to be Christian but if they were really Christian, they would have created more uproar about the gay marriages. So that leads me to believe that most people just claim to be Christian but most are not.

And here we have you erroneously suggesting that Christians have to be against gay marriage. They don't, and many aren't.

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Arctic, you and me will never agree on anything, you have your opinion that gay marriage should be legal and you are an atheist.

My religious beliefs have nothing to do with it -- i'd support gay marriage even if I was a Christian.

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I am a Christian and I believe that the Bible states marriage is between a man and a woman.

Where in the bible does it say that, and where in the bible does it define marriage?

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By my views, I believe that I will have to answer to a higher authority at some point and the same thing will happen with you.

Great, but what does that have to do with gay marriage?

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I don't care what the world thinks about anything, I don't answer to the world, I answer to God and I'm more scared of God than the world.

Why would you be scared of god? If you're scared of him, then perhaps he isn't worthy of worship.

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I bought into the world mentality for a while, once in my life, I wanted to see where it would lead me and it nearly drove me to suicide

What's 'that mentality'? You'll need to define it before proceeding here. Anyhow, I�m quite happy with 'the world' mentality, and I�ve never attempted suicide.

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Originally posted by speedracer_mec Let me say this. Marriage is about love. Rite? Ok so allowing gays to marry...fine..go ahead. So in that case.... I will go marry my dog. I will go marry my favorite street sign. I will go marry my car. I will go marry my favorite airline service. If they dont allow it...I will be discriminated upon. See...you have to draw the line somewhere. IN this case...marriage. Its a union between the gender of a man and a woman. Otherwise...Lets just completely distort the meaning of marriage.

is this suppoised to be an argument?

You are essentially comparing the marriage of gays to marrying animals, signs, cars and companies????

Gay marry becuase they are tweo consenting adults that LOVE each other...who cares if they both have penis's, or vagina's or both!

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Gay marry becuase they are tweo consenting adults that LOVE each other...who cares if they both have penis's, or vagina's or both!

You honestly think people marry for love.

It was pure sarcasm i stated before.
I was referring to distortion.

People most of the time marry for sex, money, power or for whatever reason.
Marriage has gone to shit in the past century.(e.g. vegas)
Distorting it even more with gay marriages can essentially allow me to marry my favorite piece of grass at Memorial Park.

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Originally posted by speedracer_mec Let me say this. Marriage is about love.

Most people view it that way, but whether that's the purpose of marriage legislation or not could be debated.

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I will go marry my dog.

Can a dog consent to marriage? Can a dog say I do? Can a dog wield power of attorney?

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I will go marry my favorite street sign. I will go marry my car. I will go marry my favorite airline service.

How can the above objects consent to marriage? Can a street sign benefit from tax breaks? Do you even know what benefits come with marriage?

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See...you have to draw the line somewhere.

Yes, we draw the line at human beings.

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IN this case...marriage. Its a union between the gender of a man and a woman.

That doesn't follow from the above, it's still perfectly possible to draw the line at 'human beings' and leave it at that.

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Originally posted by speedracer_mec Distorting it even more with gay marriages can essentially allow me to marry my favorite piece of grass at Memorial Park.

No -- it will allow gays to get married. The only thing that would allow people to marry grass is if a bill that allowed it was passed. Since bills legalizing gay marriage contain no such alteration, your argument doesn't work.

errrrr
ummmmmmm

......................

I'll answer your questions, tonight (nearly 2am my time now). My ability to make coherent sentences seems to be hampered by my extreme tiredness and I have to be at work for some lame meeting at 9:30am, so I should get some sleep, I'll get back to you at some point, if you want me to answer certain questions, pm me them and I'll get to them eventually. I'm shattered

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Originally posted by torontotrance errrrr ummmmmmm ...................... I'll answer your questions, tonight (nearly 2am my time now). My ability to make coherent sentences seems to be hampered by my extreme tiredness and I have to be at work for some lame meeting at 9:30am, so I should get some sleep, I'll get back to you at some point, if you want me to answer certain questions, pm me them and I'll get to them eventually. I'm shattered

YIKES!

who knows what went on in this forum tonite!

Im going to have to read back on alot.

Ive missed alot since occrider ran me out with his long ass bible length reply.....Still havent gotten to it

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Originally posted by torontotrance errrrr ummmmmmm ...................... I'll answer your questions, tonight (nearly 2am my time now). My ability to make coherent sentences seems to be hampered by my extreme tiredness and I have to be at work for some lame meeting at 9:30am, so I should get some sleep, I'll get back to you at some point, if you want me to answer certain questions, pm me them and I'll get to them eventually. I'm shattered

PM them? we want to see too... cause really, it would be interesting if you could actually answer them

though the chanses that a christian anti-gay person actually could have some valid arguments is, ehm, about 0%

and good posts arctic

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Originally posted by arctic Can a dog consent to marriage? Can a dog say I do? Can a dog wield power of attorney?

Exactly, to have a marriage, you need to have two consenting individuals. A dog is pretty much unable to make a consentual statement. A parrot, on the other hand...hmm...what if you teach a parrot to say "I do", "I want a divorce", and "I want an attorney"? I guess that's the place where the line becomes blurred...

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Originally posted by occrider Hmmm I would sign such a measure too ... if I could also find and sign onto a measure that would eliminate state recognition of all marriages. Alas I doubt such common sense would arise any time this century.

I'll agree to gay 'marriage' when they agree to polygamy styled 'marriages'. Let's have some consistency in public policy, instead of saying it's ok to treat a certain group as second class folk, and not another group.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew PM them? we want to see too... cause really, it would be interesting if you could actually answer them though the chanses that a christian anti-gay person actually could have some valid arguments is, ehm, about 0% and good posts arctic

I knew your pathetic self would show up, I don't care if you think my arguments are valid.

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Originally posted by torontotrance I knew your pathetic self would show up, I don't care if you think my arguments are valid.

ah yeah im damn pathetic, i suggest you to post your arguments in this thread instead of PMing them to arctic. damn pathetic me...

honestly, that is an baseless insult, you are a mod, you should be a good example, you are not.

either admit you were wrong about gay marriages, or give us some arguments, and respond to arctics posts. it's not 2 am there now.

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Originally posted by torontotrance I knew your pathetic self would show up, I don't care if you think my arguments are valid.

dude you automatically win the argument with that comment rite there

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Exactly, to have a marriage, you need to have two consenting individuals. A dog is pretty much unable to make a consentual statement. A parrot, on the other hand...hmm...what if you teach a parrot to say "I do", "I want a divorce", and "I want an attorney"? I guess that's the place where the line becomes blurred...

I think there's also a condition that a human can knowingly consent to a marriage -- and it has to be informed consent. In other words, they actually have to know what they're doing when they agree to get married.

Until someone can demonstrate to me that a parrot has the brain power to actually comprehend language and to rationalize at an adult level, i'm satisfied that a parrot can't consent.

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