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quote:

Originally posted by che "Mission Accomplished" - Commander in Chief

To be accurate, Bush never said "Mission Accomplished". That was a banner that was hanging on the aircraft carrier when he flew in. He did declare that major combat operations were over. It's an oft misquoted statement.

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Originally posted by Arbiter Oh, come on, it's not that bad. I'd take it over cancer in two seconds.

Yes, I must say it's a bit hypocritical to be so shocked by the killing of a person who willingly entered Iraq and was aware of all the possible dangers when there are literally millions of people dying in worse conditions than this guy died in.

It's not that I don't condemn the act, I certainly do, but I don't see what's more shocking about this particular death than when somebody else in the world gets brutally killed.

So you are saying that just because the man is in Iraq helping to restore the infrastructure he is fair game? Someone has to do it and the Iraqi people obviously don't have the training necessary to work these jobs themselves or they would already to be doing so.

Thats like saying someone who got killed in a random drive by shooting was at fault because they drove through a certain part of town which they've driven to everyday on their way to work.

The reason is so bad is not because these people are Americans. They are also british, turkish, korean, and other nationalities. The reason it is so bad is that it is more than a killing, it is making a spectacle of the man, his family, and declaring an impossible ransom they know will never be met for the pure pleasure of killing foreigners in a brutal fashion. It may not be more shocking than other people around the world getting brutally killed in a similar way but how many of those are shot with video and released for the world to see?

oh and cancer is curable, being decapitated is not.

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil Nothing we can do really other than catch this guy. If he is indeed in fallujah then perhaps we just need to send in like 50,000 American and Iraqi troops and search the city home by home along with blocking the perimeter. They keep doing these small raid with 2,000 troops but this barely covers a few blocks.

how excactly would that work?! thats a terrible idea. that would only enrage the iraqi's more.

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Originally posted by Michael19 how excactly would that work?! thats a terrible idea. that would only enrage the iraqi's more.

What is your idea? I doubt the Iraqis can get more enraged than they already are in Fallujah. Instead of putting them through skirmish after skirmish over the course of 2 years, wouldn't it make more sense to try to finish it in one operation?

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil What is your idea? I doubt the Iraqis can get more enraged than they already are in Fallujah. Instead of putting them through skirmish after skirmish over the course of 2 years, wouldn't it make more sense to try to finish it in one operation?

We are under the impression that we are big, bad America and we can simply run over others if we want to. C'mon man the U.S. cannot even set foot in Fallujah without violence breaking out in that place. Just remember that violence begets violence, so if we do go for a fullscale assault on Fallujah it will be long and bloody, do you think Iraqis will sit by idly and watch it transpire on the daily news. I can only question the way we think as Americans about others, as though they won't react when there family members are killed in such conflicts. It would be fine if it was just the militants being killed we of course know this is not the case.

P.S. by the way, my idea before you ask would be to have the Iraqi forces be the one's when finally trained, whenever that is, to go into Fallujah.

We can always back up to Kuwait and proceed once again leveling anything that breathes in our path this time, but I don't think the world wants a moonscape in Iraq. Throwing a few 2,000 pounders at suspected Al-Zarquawi hideouts is the norm. Eventually, he'll make an error or one of his associates will rat on him, just like Saddam, and we'll knock the motherf*cker out of the equation. Only hope we could take him alive so the Iraqi government can make a public beheading of him.


[[[smoke]]]

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka To be accurate, Bush never said "Mission Accomplished". That was a banner that was hanging on the aircraft carrier when he flew in. He did declare that major combat operations were over. It's an oft misquoted statement.

Which is worse as it implies that it was pre-planned so there must have been some who though it. I can understand if it was a spur of the moment statement from someones mouth, leting emotions come into it.

So you can't tell us that nobody expected this to be peaches & cream.

quote:

Originally posted by che So you can't tell us that nobody expected this to be peaches & cream.

I'm still not sure what you're getting at.

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Originally posted by smokeape Eventually, he'll make an error or one of his associates will rat on him, just like Saddam, and we'll knock the motherf*cker out of the equation. Only hope we could take him alive so the Iraqi government can make a public beheading of him.

Ya he'll be waiting in a hole like Saddam did waiting to be arrested by the Americans.

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan We are under the impression that we are big, bad America and we can simply run over others if we want to. C'mon man the U.S. cannot even set foot in Fallujah without violence breaking out in that place. Just remember that violence begets violence, so if we do go for a fullscale assault on Fallujah it will be long and bloody, do you think Iraqis will sit by idly and watch it transpire on the daily news. I can only question the way we think as Americans about others, as though they won't react when there family members are killed in such conflicts. It would be fine if it was just the militants being killed we of course know this is not the case. P.S. by the way, my idea before you ask would be to have the Iraqi forces be the one's when finally trained, whenever that is, to go into Fallujah.

It has nothing to do with being bid bad America.

The situation is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

On one hand you have a city that to date seems to be the stronhold for insurgency within Iraq. You can let them continue and they continue to kill more innocent Iraqis from their carbombs and other means.

On the other hand you have the US troops who went in there before ready to launch a final assault (after the hangings of the US workers). They backed down and sent in Iraqi troops who to date have done nothing. You can send in further troops but again you are risking civlians but at least at the end of the day you have the possibility of catching or killing those who mastermind the attacks.

I think whether it is American or Iraqi troops they need to go there and in ultimate force and they must not back down until the job is done.

just curious...what made those of you who saw the videos of the beheadings, want to see them?

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Originally posted by jrbuddha just curious...what made those of you who saw the videos of the beheadings, want to see them?

Talking about this particular beheading of Eugene, I saw it just to see if I experienced the same reaction as those who posted first. It didn't happen though. Talking about all the beheadings, I wantched them because they are happening, it's reality, and to avoid them is not right, it's cowardlike. You have to be aware of everything that is going on, even if it's something as strong as this(to some of course).

Also, look at the way you started your reply. It's also because of that. Curiosity makes us do many things.

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil It has nothing to do with being bid bad America. The situation is damned if you do and damned if you don't. On one hand you have a city that to date seems to be the stronhold for insurgency within Iraq. You can let them continue and they continue to kill more innocent Iraqis from their carbombs and other means. On the other hand you have the US troops who went in there before ready to launch a final assault (after the hangings of the US workers). They backed down and sent in Iraqi troops who to date have done nothing. You can send in further troops but again you are risking civlians but at least at the end of the day you have the possibility of catching or killing those who mastermind the attacks. I think whether it is American or Iraqi troops they need to go there and in ultimate force and they must not back down until the job is done.

I agree with your latter point, where the problem exists is that a decision has not been made one way or another when it comes to such areas as Fallujah, that sense of indecisiveness can certainly not be beneficial to the U.S. presence in Iraq in the long run. If as they say many foreign fighters are in Fallujah then through the military decisions they have a nesting spot in Iraq if those claims are to be believed. Sounds to me like the old concept that many were accused of by a lot of war supporters about the false assumption that if you ignore the problem it will go away on its own, Fallujah, Samarra, Sadr City, will not go away on their own and the U.S. military will be responsible for dealing with that if Iraq is to be pacified.

We are now talking about leaving out parts of Iraq from voting in the elections if need be so. Is that democracy. Imagine if part of our nation was unable to cast their voice for representation of them. Doesn't sound like any American Democracy to me. Someone should tell Donald Rumsfeld to keep his mouth shut because whenever he opens it up bad vapors come out, of course this was the man who gave us the famous known knowns, and unknown knowns quote.

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil So you are saying that just because the man is in Iraq helping to restore the infrastructure he is fair game? Someone has to do it and the Iraqi people obviously don't have the training necessary to work these jobs themselves or they would already to be doing so. Thats like saying someone who got killed in a random drive by shooting was at fault because they drove through a certain part of town which they've driven to everyday on their way to work.

No, you misinterpreted my statement. Of course I'm not saying he's a fair game because he's helping Iraqi people. Quite the opposite infact, killing him is very harmful for the Iraqi people in the long term, and killing foreign workers in Iraq is certainly gruesome and not acceptable. I'm just saying that I don't see what's so especially horrifying about this death than any others seen on tv.

quote:

The reason is so bad is not because these people are Americans. They are also british, turkish, korean, and other nationalities. The reason it is so bad is that it is more than a killing, it is making a spectacle of the man, his family, and declaring an impossible ransom they know will never be met for the pure pleasure of killing foreigners in a brutal fashion. It may not be more shocking than other people around the world getting brutally killed in a similar way but how many of those are shot with video and released for the world to see?

Yes, well in his case, the ransom wasn't that impossible. They just demanded a release of 2 Iraqi female scientists from prison. Not like they demanded a full scale US retreat or something like that. But I guess I've grown acustom to constantly seeing dead bodies and reading the stories about brutal slaughtering of civilians during the early 90's when the war here was going on, so I've kinda got used to that sort of stuff. When you see one or two such reports, you're shocked. When you see 20 of them, you're kinda ambivalent.

quote:

oh and cancer is curable, being decapitated is not.

Eh, well then replace the word cancer with some long lasting painful disease that's not curable and you'll get the point.

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Eh, well then replace the word cancer with some long lasting painful disease that's not curable and you'll get the point.

How about stupidity?

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan I agree with your latter point, where the problem exists is that a decision has not been made one way or another when it comes to such areas as Fallujah, that sense of indecisiveness can certainly not be beneficial to the U.S. presence in Iraq in the long run. If as they say many foreign fighters are in Fallujah then through the military decisions they have a nesting spot in Iraq if those claims are to be believed. Sounds to me like the old concept that many were accused of by a lot of war supporters about the false assumption that if you ignore the problem it will go away on its own, Fallujah, Samarra, Sadr City, will not go away on their own and the U.S. military will be responsible for dealing with that if Iraq is to be pacified.

Its called election season. I'm surpised you've never heard of it?



Shakka - good one

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Its called election season. I'm surpised you've never heard of it?

Except it has been like that for many months now, not just leading up to the elections in a couple of months, so what does that say.

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Except it has been like that for many months now, not just leading up to the elections in a couple of months, so what does that say.

That Bush thinks longterm.

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Originally posted by Shakka How about stupidity?

The only stupid ones are they who let the media decide which deaths they should mourn.

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Originally posted by Shakka How about stupidity?

No, being stupid is pretty nice. Especially in developed societies where you rarely suffer any harm because of it.

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Originally posted by ierxium Talking about this particular beheading of Eugene, I saw it just to see if I experienced the same reaction as those who posted first. It didn't happen though. Talking about all the beheadings, I wantched them because they are happening, it's reality, and to avoid them is not right, it's cowardlike. You have to be aware of everything that is going on, even if it's something as strong as this(to some of course).

I am yet to watch any of the beheadings cos quite frankly i dont want those images burnt into my memory. If that makes me a coward than so be it i am a coward. I just dont feel you need to watch it to realise what is occurring is tragic and horrific. Just being told about the beheadings is enuff to know its shockingly wrong.
Good one big man!

If you look back into history when Lincoln was elected (1860s), not all states participated in the elections.

14/18 areas in iraq is 77%

hell, if i had to worry about carbombs everyday voting would be pretty low on my priority list.

things like democracy take time.

I watch each and every beheading because not that it is reality, not that it is war but it is what is happening in Iraq on a daily basis and I choose to. I used to be one of those averted to seeing such things but then it dawned on me that I don't have to rationalize or reason about why this is happening in Iraq, it is the task and duty of the U.S. Mititary to stop such people from perpetrating these acts and the more the beheadings and kidnappings continue the more it represents the breakdown of law and order in that nation.

George Bush claims Iraq is now the battlefront on terror, thx to his policy of going into Iraq under scrupulous claims, now he is charged with dealing with the psychopaths roaming around Iraq killing civilians and what is happening. I know for one thing I don't care how much money you pay me I would not go to Iraq for all of it in the world, those who go take a profound risk being civilians, sadly that is the atmosphere that has been created in Iraq whatever the reasons may have been for war

quote:

Originally posted by policerobots If you look back into history when Lincoln was elected (1860s), not all states participated in the elections. 14/18 areas in iraq is 77% hell, if i had to worry about carbombs everyday voting would be pretty low on my priority list. things like democracy take time.

As an option they can hold voting for the entire country, just have polling stations in secure areas. That way everyone is allowed to vote, just the people in insecure areas have to travel a little ways to go vote. To me it would make it seem more legit and stop the inevitable people afterward calling it a "fake election" if only 14 providences vote.

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