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quote:

Originally posted by Kytracid LOL -- I agree completely. To hear jay whinning like a little girl about everything just makes me chuckle. Here you have a young, white male who's bitching about all the percieved injustices heaped upon him by this cruel, unjust world.

If i were politically correct id say that was a racist statement

quote:

Here's my advice, jay - take a trip outside the little bubble called Toronto and gain some real perspective. Maybe then you'll get a real understanding of what it means to lose your freedome, and what it means to be oppressed by a government. Till then, i suspect most of us on this forum will take your ramblings with a grain of salt.

Actually, its travelling the word that opened my eyes to just how much we give up our freedoms in Canada. Places like Argentina and Eastern Europe know what it is to take freedom away. These places would shut down the country over issues that we let slide on a daily basis. Even Western Europe doesnt put up with the shit we do.

Fuck that ... none smokin' thing is getting so gay now.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 If i were politically correct id say that was a racist statement

racist ? LOL, why because i'm saying that as a young, white male you represent the demographic that basically has the most advantageous given to by society ? Go ahead, and cry racism if it makes you feel better. It's doesn't change what is an acknowledged fact. You are definately part of a majority which has more opportunities then anyone else in this society, and still we find you here, moaning about everything under the sun.

Now...regarding other places in the world. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i remember watching a program on tourism in Argentina where a few years ago, police basically had the right to stop public buses for random drug inspections, something which most of the citizens found to be in violations of thier civil rights.

I've lived in socialist countries, where freedome of movement is restricted, gathering of people is considered illegal and where marshall law is a way of life. It's when things get to that extreme point that there's a need for civil disobediance. To even compare what is happening there to not being allowed to smoke in a public place is laughable.

At least in Canada you still have the right to demonstrate. Don't like the new smoking law, plan a rally, stand on the picket lines and see if you can get your point across to the politicans. That's the avenue of resistance you should be exploring. Instead, like most arm chair critics you choose to sit inside your shop, reaping the benefits of free enterprise in true capitalistic sense, while using the internet, an anonymous venue to voice your greivances. As much as you might see yourself as the vanguard for freedome and democracy, in reality you're just another privelaged member, disgruntled with the percieved notion that you're not getting everything you want from the world.

Wanna make a differnece ? Liven up, and start making some 'real' moves if you got the balls. Otherwise chill out, light up a spliff (or ciggerate in your case) and relax like the rest of us sorry sobs.

quote:

Originally posted by Kytracid racist ? LOL, why because i'm saying that as a young, white male you represent the demographic that basically has the most advantageous given to by society ? Go ahead, and cry racism if it makes you feel better. It's doesn't change what is an acknowledged fact. You are definately part of a majority which has more opportunities then anyone else in this society, and still we find you here, moaning about everything under the sun.

may i remind you that generalizations about someone based on race is considered racism. Tell the poor white single mother on welfare that she comes from an advantaged demographic. Oh yes and most of the homeless people in Toronto seem to be white. But thats a whole other Jerry Springer show. I forgot that in PC land racism is a one way street.

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Now...regarding other places in the world. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i remember watching a program on tourism in Argentina where a few years ago, police basically had the right to stop public buses for random drug inspections, something which most of the citizens found to be in violations of thier civil rights.

you are right and they voted that government out. Menem was a crook and got kicked out of office. Not to mention all the protests and national strikes that shut down the country when their president was found to be corrupt. Here we just vote them back in.

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I've lived in socialist countries, where freedome of movement is restricted, gathering of people is considered illegal

in most parts of canada you need a permit to hold a public gathering or demonstration. Many of these socialist countries that are now free would never dream of the type of rediculous smoking and liquor laws that we have here. They value freedom and are very cautious when the government interferes.

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It's when things get to that extreme point that there's a need for civil disobediance. To even compare what is happening there to not being allowed to smoke in a public place is laughable.

tell that to italians or french when they shut down the whole country in national strikes when their taxes go up or services get cut

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At least in Canada you still have the right to demonstrate.

less and less. A small demonstration wont work anyways. National strikes do. The one time it happened here was when the truckers shut down the highways in rolling convoys. The gas prices came down quickly after that for a long time didnt they?

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Don't like the new smoking law, plan a rally, stand on the picket lines and see if you can get your point across to the politicans. That's the avenue of resistance you should be exploring.

actually i have written several letters to MPs, councillors and "health officials" about this.

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Instead, like most arm chair critics you choose to sit inside your shop, reaping the benefits of free enterprise in true capitalistic sense, while using the internet, an anonymous venue to voice your greivances.

you don't know who i am or what i do. You are making assumptions just like when you thought i had never left Canada in my life.

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As much as you might see yourself as the vanguard for freedome and democracy, in reality you're just another privelaged member, disgruntled with the percieved notion that you're not getting everything you want from the world.

perceived? Sorry but when i see the values and freedoms that i feel made this country so great in the past being eroded away and then i see people who dont care, it both angers me and makes me sad. It is my every right to speak up about it no matter what race i am.

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Wanna make a differnece ? Liven up, and start making some 'real' moves if you got the balls. Otherwise chill out, light up a spliff (or ciggerate in your case) and relax like the rest of us sorry sobs.

Funny thing... i dont smoke... but i make a living off of a large clientele that choose to.

So, why dont you answer my question. If you never have to go near the patio, a place that youd never go to anyways. You never have to breathe an ounce of tobacco, and you can function as usual in a club without smoke then what it to you if smokers have a place to go and puff while not freezing their asses off?

And one last thing... i party my ass off in real life. I use this place to sound off so that for the most part, others dont have to.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 It all boils down to an eventual attempt to take away all smoker's rights, even IN open air. Within ten years, the only place you'll be able to smoke will be in your car or in your house.

Even smoking in your OWN car is in question these days. In Thunder Bay which also recently passed a no-smoking bylaw, the law was extended to include all work places. By-law enforcement officers have decided that the workplace extends to parking lots of a place of employment as well. Thus, if you're parked in the local mall parking lot or outside your office, you can also be fined if smoking in your own vehicle.

as is the slippery slope when it comes to these laws. This is what scares me the most. Its bad enough now, but whats next?

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 may i remind you that generalizations about someone based on race is considered racism. Tell the poor white single mother on welfare that she comes from an advantaged demographic. Oh yes and most of the homeless people in Toronto seem to be white. But thats a whole other Jerry Springer show. I forgot that in PC land racism is a one way street.

Read what i said again. My statement was directed towards you. Not a woman on welfare, not homeless people on the street. Stop trying to twist what i said under the guise of it being racist, for it to be a racist comment i would have had to say something prejudical against white people, or white men.

My comments is an observation about the society we live in and I stand by it. Yes, not all white men are given the same advantegous, but by and large, as a young white male growing up in Canada, you have 'more' opportunities to succeed, more avenues to be successfull then any other demographic. The problem is your definition of racism is incorrect. Generalizations based on race aren't considered racist, prejudice and discrimination are. Clever attempt at pointing the finger at me and crying reverse racism, but it doesn't fly because what i've said is true, even if you don't have the courage to admit it.

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tell that to italians or french when they shut down the whole country in national strikes when their taxes go up or services get cut

Yes, and look at how powerfull the french and italian economies are.
From an idealogist standpoint, strikes might seem the proper course of action whenever the government does something you disagree with, but having lived in countries like India, Tanzania and Swaziland where strikes often turn bloody and last weeks, I know the full impact they have on a countries economy and the life of the people.

Ever lived in a country where a strike cripples public transport, or educational instituations, forcing them to be closed for up to six months at a time. Yeah, the idea of a nation going on strike to get their demands meet sounds romantic to a young, idealized mind. It isn't.

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you don't know who i am or what i do. You are making assumptions just like when you thought i had never left Canada in my life.

Actually, you've stated on more then one occasion that you've been to Argentina and own a sandwich shop, so i do in fact know a little bit about what you do. As far who you are...well, unfortunately who you are comes across through the nature of your posts, and as much as you like to reiterate that's not how you are in real life, for most of us, the perception is that you use this board (which by the way is meant to be a discussion forum for EDM related events in Toronto) to voice your political grievances.

I've never been to Argentina, but knowing a little bit about the failing economies in south America (save Brasil perhaps) and the turmoil in the recent past in the governments of those countries, i find it strange that you think life there is better then in Canada. No country is perfect, my argument was that maybe you just haven't lived in a country where some of the basic rights you seem to value so much have been taken away.

quote:

perceived? Sorry but when i see the values and freedoms that i feel made this country so great in the past being eroded away and then i see people who dont care, it both angers me and makes me sad. It is my every right to speak up about it no matter what race i am.

Fine. You have the right to make a point. But you keep insisting on flogging a dead horse. How many times have you said the same thing. Whether it's about voting during the election, or the current government, or the smoking issue, or gender equality. Do i need to do a search and paste a topic list to make it more clear ? No...I think most of the board regulars already know that you're pretty adept at saying the same thing, over and over and over again. There's a difference between being passionate about what's happening in your country and returning to the same forum every week and saying the same thing. At some point we as members have a right to be indignant and tell you to STFU as well...and that's basically what i'm doing. (somehow i doubt it will work though)

quote:

So, why dont you answer my question. If you never have to go near the patio, a place that youd never go to anyways. You never have to breathe an ounce of tobacco, and you can function as usual in a club without smoke then what it to you if smokers have a place to go and puff while not freezing their asses off? And one last thing... i party my ass off in real life. I use this place to sound off so that for the most part, others dont have to.

You've taken an ambigous article, and made a real meal out of it haven't you ? There's nothing in the article which suggests this law will be implemented. All it's saying is that if business owners try to find loopholes in the existing law, by building enclosers around a patio, thereby changing the definition of what a patio is...then, the government will take steps to close those loopholes. All this paranoia , comming from a non smoker really makes me question just how much partying you do, jay.

Oh and finally...seems you do want to enter politics, because you've seen it as your delegated responsibility to voice the concerns of the silent majority. A quick question though, who the hell elected you to be the spokesmen anyway ?

First off... I didnt realize someone had to be elected in order to publicly voice a thought. Second, the fact that they are willing to ban it outright is what i take issue. The mere notion is sad.

As for your views on racism. if i say that black guys should have no complaints about sports because they are the best basketball players for example, that is not racist? Sorry but i think it would be. And its exactly what you just told me. You think that because im a white guy i should shut up and live with what is given to me because white people have it better. Sure, whatever you say. Prejudiced beyond belief. But again thats another story. As for my posts. Im not the only one who uses this forum non-musically whether its others who make posts about politics or the macedonian serbian war that went on etc etc. Its a general chat forum for toronto.

Id love to live in a country that had the balls to shut down for a few days to show the government that it wont take abuse. Months at a time? No im not comparing us to swaziland or where ever. Im talking about modern western countries. France and Italy have very well off economies despite the recent recession there. They routinely shut the country down over tax, services and pay issues and they usually either get thier way or turf out the government in the next election. Us Canadian sheep not only do nothing, we keep re-electing them!

I wont say Argentina is a great economy. But their economy vs the way they live and how they think are quite seperated. They are poor thanks to past dictatorships. Now that the have had 20 years of democracy they are slowly rebuilding. However, thanks to the lack of restrictions there and the fact that people dont whine about every little thing, the have some of the best parties going on there that ive ever been to. What i admire about them is their spirit. They have much less than we do yet are happy and easy going. They are allowed to do what they want as long as others dont get hurt. They understand the basis of human functionality in society that says that if you dont like something, dont put yourself in a position that forces you to deal with it ie) smoking at a club. I have seriously considered saving enough money to buy a house there. If money is an issue ill just earn it here and go make a life for myself there.

i enjoy this now!

Never thought i would be the one to say this - but i enjoy bars/clubs/resturants/ect, to be non smoking b/c
I JUST QUIT THE HABIT FROM HELL!


I simply hat ewalking by all the places where you see 2 to 10 to 29 poeple standing outside of a bar/club/resturant/ect. and that wave of smoke in the air - To tell y'all the truth, I even hated it when i was a smoker! bloody stuff stinks like SHIT.... makes our clothes smell and so on. Breath, fingers, skin (believe it or not)


well ta ta

and take care out there!

quote:

Originally posted by Kytracid Now...regarding other places in the world. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i remember watching a program on tourism in Argentina where a few years ago, police basically had the right to stop public buses for random drug inspections, something which most of the citizens found to be in violations of thier civil rights.

When I lived in London I saw police officers with drug sniffing dogs set up shop at many of the different tube stations trying to catch people with pills. This happened on many different occasions at 2 of the stations I often frequent (not sure about the others but one can only assume)... Do you think I enjoyed that?

You'll never see that in Canada unless the police are looking for someone ahead of time.

-Your Mother

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 First off... I didnt realize someone had to be elected in order to publicly voice a thought. Second, the fact that they are willing to ban it outright is what i take issue. The mere notion is sad.

You don't have to tell me you don't need a vote to voice your thoughts. Every member on this board has seen first hand when you posted 7 topics of the same nature when you first joined this board that you don't need an invitation to repeat yourself. I doubt this will be the last thread you start on the same topic,

quote:

As for your views on racism. if i say that black guys should have no complaints about sports because they are the best basketball players for example, that is not racist? Sorry but i think it would be. And its exactly what you just told me. You think that because im a white guy i should shut up and live with what is given to me because white people have it better. Sure, whatever you say. Prejudiced beyond belief. But again thats another story.

If you're going to make comparisions, at least be consistent. If you say a lot of good basketball players are black guys, that's not a racist comment. It's an observation that most people will agree with. Similarily, my observation that young white males recieve more advantages in our society then other demographics is an observation that many will agree with.

Going with your analogy, if a black guy stood up and started to mouth off about how difficult it was getting into the NBA for him compared to say a white guy, or an asian guy, then i'd tell him to shut up as well. It's not racism to point out to him that the majority of athelets in the NBA are black. I don't know if you'll understand all this, because you seem pretty dogmatic with your views on reverse racism, and it's come through on some of your previous posts. ( i might add, your views are quite similar on the gender equality issue as well. ) You seem to have some sort of persecution mania which needs to be addressed, but i'm certainly not qualified nor inclined to do so.

Call my views prejudical if you wish, i'll say it again, and point out that there are a lot of men in a similar position (many of them on this very board) who complain less about the world they live in. If you stand up and thump your chest and say you've been wronged, expect a host of people to take a good look at you, and question what right you have to gripe when others have it a lot tougher. It certainly doesn't take away your right to gripe, but it does put things into perspective. Which is what my original comment was inteded to do.

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As for my posts. Im not the only one who uses this forum non-musically whether its others who make posts about politics or the macedonian serbian war that went on etc etc. Its a general chat forum for toronto.

Actually it isn't. There are forums that are dedicated to Toronto life and politics. But i don't think you'd dare to venture into those because there are people who would put up fierce arguments against your points. I think you choose this forum because most of the members here aren't likely to give you a hard time with some of your views. Either that, or somehow you think that by posting your views here you are actually educating the indifferent masses, i'm not quite sure what motivates you to post here. Maybe it's just boredome, only you know. Also odd is how you don't choose the political forums to post when it's a mere click away.

This forum has morphed into a place where some people now boast about their private lifes, while others hammer the same issues time and again with pointless threads. Just because you can post anything doesn't make it ok.

quote:

Id love to live in a country that had the balls to shut down for a few days to show the government that it wont take abuse. Months at a time? No im not comparing us to swaziland or where ever. Im talking about modern western countries. France and Italy have very well off economies despite the recent recession there. They routinely shut the country down over tax, services and pay issues and they usually either get thier way or turf out the government in the next election. Us Canadian sheep not only do nothing, we keep re-electing them!

I get the impression you're sour about the result of the election, and everything you've said prior to this is basically bullshit. Look, you seem to have a hardset political agenda, good for you. I have no interest in canadian politics, but even i can tell if the result of the election had gone in your parties favor, you'd probably not be posting as much.

Oh, and speaking of Italy. You are aware that the prime minister of Italy controls the countries TV stations right ? There was a big scandal over his placed restrictions on what was shown regarding the government there. So lets not get into a debate whether Italy or France are better off then Canada. Both those countries have seen their economies take a turn for the worse since in the past few years. But that's another debate.

quote:

I wont say Argentina is a great economy. But their economy vs the way they live and how they think are quite seperated. They are poor thanks to past dictatorships. Now that the have had 20 years of democracy they are slowly rebuilding. However, thanks to the lack of restrictions there and the fact that people dont whine about every little thing , the have some of the best parties going on there that ive ever been to. What i admire about them is their spirit. They have much less than we do yet are happy and easy going. They are allowed to do what they want as long as others dont get hurt. They understand the basis of human functionality in society that says that if you dont like something, dont put yourself in a position that forces you to deal with it ie) smoking at a club. I have seriously considered saving enough money to buy a house there. If money is an issue ill just earn it here and go make a life for myself there.

Ok, even with just my general knowledge of that area, I know that Argentina is facing some severe problems in terms of economic and fiscal policy. The governments there have historically been volitile although you are correct in stating that they have moved towards the path of democracy that country is facing some tough times ahead with curbing some very difficult recurring economic problems. Now...what's my point with all this. Well, it just so happens i've lived in a country that's faced similar economic hardships. In fact, i've lived 18 years of my life in Africa which in many ways is worse off then South America. In a third world nation, which is facing problems like unemployment, high inflation, a weak currency, no one fucking cares about trivial things like smoking indoors. You do realize this right ? It's only in a developed country where those large scale problems are already under control that the government can look towards health risks of smoking, and the potential long term effects of smoking indoors. That's where Canada and the US are. That's where Japan and Western Europe are.

Argentinan's have some serious problems facing thier country. Problems that could determine how the next generation will live. When they've figured out how to reduce the enormous budget deficit, and find jobs for the hundreads of unemployed youth, and get medical care for their people....maybe then, they'll actually start to worry about some of the things that the Canadian government is tackling today.

The reason why you can actually even contemplate making enough money here and then going off to Argentina to live out the rest of your days in a 'free spirited' society should tell you something about the value of the Canadian dollar compared to the peso.

Well if you dont see the double standard that exists in our society then i feel sorry for you.

Anyways, as for the comparisons to europe and south america. The economies of these nations are not what i am referring to here. Other than the fact that i admire the fact that these nations have the will to stand up when they are wronged, i also admire the fact that they are free to do what they will. Oh and you want to compare the telecomunications? Guess what? We have something called the CRTC. They have complete say in what tv shows we see, which channels we watch and what songs we hear. You want to talk about control? Let's talk about HBO. Oh yeah, that's illegal here.

Sure our economy is great. Ive never said otherwise. However i truely feel the social fabric of this country is going to hell.

Am I bitter that the Liberals won? Well not so much that they won but that we re-elected a government that literally stole from us. This is what saddens me. If it had been any other party I would feel the same. My personal politics are not as partisian as you may think. The Liberals just happen to be the thieves at the moment.

If my sentiment of living in a society where adults are treated like adults is offensive, i make no apology for it. The funny and ironic thing is that i am so sick of people complaining about nothing, i have ended up complaining to no end about the complainers. Read my posts and think about it.

I have lived and been in other societies where your right to function in society the way you choose is respected by the rest of society. You are entitled to make choices and face the good or bad consequences of each choice. This occurs less and less here and this is what upsets me.

quote:

Originally posted by E2EK1EL Fuck that ... none smokin' thing is getting so gay now.

agreed... wtf man
leave us smokers well enough alone for shit's sake. we already freeze our asses off smoking outside, now you want to take our right to smoke outside away?! what a joke

Even in a pure capitalist/free-market political system, the governments primary function is to protect the rights to life and to personal property. Since the smoking patrons don't own the premises, they have no property rights to speak of. Second-hand smoke, on the other hand, has been conclusively linked to several life-threatening illnesses, so with properly conducted research (which has indeed been conducted), any government is well-justified in making this law because it protects many people's right to life and does not violate anyone's property rights.

Whether or not you like this law, Jay, you have no constitutional grounds to win this argument with. The key point you seem to be missing is that second-hand smoke directly harms others, and not in a mysterious subtle way like "discrimination" but in a very real and scientifically proven way.

I am fairly certain that removing one wall from an otherwise indoor area is by no means sufficient to keep second-hand smoke off the premises.

It is a GROSS MISINTERPRETATION of the issue to claim that the government is trying to take away your right to smoke outside. The government hasn't changed a damn thing for you personally - it has simply stated that one missing wall doesn't make an area "outdoors" at all, and rightly so, since a large part of that smoke is no doubt going to end up in the "indoor" area.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Well if you dont see the double standard that exists in our society then i feel sorry for you.

Thanks, it always livens up my day to know i have a perennial complainer feeling sorry for me. What with everything else on your plate that seems to give you gut rot, i'm suprised you have much pity left for poor ole me.

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Sure our economy is great. Ive never said otherwise. However i truely feel the social fabric of this country is going to hell. Am I bitter that the Liberals won? Well not so much that they won but that we re-elected a government that literally stole from us. This is what saddens me. If it had been any other party I would feel the same. My personal politics are not as partisian as you may think. The Liberals just happen to be the thieves at the moment.

There's always going to be thieves in power...it's called politics, and it's universal. It's sad that you haven't come to this realization yet.

quote:

If my sentiment of living in a society where adults are treated like adults is offensive, i make no apology for it. The funny and ironic thing is that i am so sick of people complaining about nothing, i have ended up complaining to no end about the complainers. Read my posts and think about it.

Adults shouldn't be treated as Adults ? Oh, ok...lets spoon feed them the gospel of truth as spoken by jay then. These damn pesky adults just keep thinking for themselves...I'm not really sure what to do about them.

Oh, and speaking about all those people who complain about nothing. Yes, i can see that. This board is innundated with a multitude of serial complainers, they complain about politics, about gender discrimition, the carabana, the smoking bylaws, the liberals, the parking bylaws, the immigration policies...yea, those people sure are annoying.

quote:

I have lived and been in other societies where your right to function in society the way you choose is respected by the rest of society. You are entitled to make choices and face the good or bad consequences of each choice. This occurs less and less here and this is what upsets me.

What's this place you speak off ? Shangrila ? Xanadu ? Utopia ... Do they allow immigrants there ?




You do occasionally make some valid points. If only you didn't feel the need to compound every point over and over again, maybe some of us would actually start to take you seriously. But, i think the root of the problem is something deeper. I'd hazard a guess that you don't really have an avenue to let loose, and no one who cares to listen to your views. Quite frankly, i doubt you'll find it here given the nature of this particular forum...but hey, it's not like your going to actually heed my advice...so i'll just sign off and say we'll probably meet in another one of your 'original' threads.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Us Canadian sheep not only do nothing, we keep re-electing them!

you keep saying things like this.
get the point
MOST OF US LIKE IT THIS WAY!

On one side you guys are banning smoking in clubs and bars even though those are the number one smoking hotspots and on the other you can never make cigarettes illegal simply for the reason that your economy depends to much on it ...having a tad to many double standards here are we

I opposed the smoking indoor ban initially but now i actually think it was a good move not just because it prevents non smokers getting exposed to second hand smoke but also because i only see my self smoking when i need to instead of just for the heck of it but this thing about banning smoking on patios is nonsense and completely uncalled for ... fookin hell with the amount cigarettes cost here , i think we deserve a place other than our homes to smoke em ...

werd DIGINUT!!

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Whether or not you like this law, Jay, you have no constitutional grounds to win this argument with. The key point you seem to be missing is that second-hand smoke directly harms others, and not in a mysterious subtle way like "discrimination" but in a very real and scientifically proven way.

i'm surprised he hasn't yet said the "if you don't like smoke then don't go out to clubs" arguement.

predictable.

Nobody has addressed the issue of smoking on patios, a place non smokers wouldnt go to anyways....

The indoor smoking arguement is over anyways... but now they are attacking outdoor smoking..

Discuss...

What about staff on the patio?
Why do non-smokers not go on patios? Patios are not strictly smoking areas, you know. It's still a part of the venue.

quote:

Originally posted by Kytracid Ok, even with just my general knowledge of that area, I know that Argentina is facing some severe problems in terms of economic and fiscal policy. The governments there have historically been volitile although you are correct in stating that they have moved towards the path of democracy that country is facing some tough times ahead with curbing some very difficult recurring economic problems. Now...what's my point with all this. Well, it just so happens i've lived in a country that's faced similar economic hardships. In fact, i've lived 18 years of my life in Africa which in many ways is worse off then South America. In a third world nation, which is facing problems like unemployment, high inflation, a weak currency, no one fucking cares about trivial things like smoking indoors. You do realize this right ? It's only in a developed country where those large scale problems are already under control that the government can look towards health risks of smoking, and the potential long term effects of smoking indoors. That's where Canada and the US are. That's where Japan and Western Europe are.

i think this point has been overlooked far too often, when comparing our great country to others which have 'more freedom'. Good job kytracid!

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Nobody has addressed the issue of smoking on patios, a place non smokers wouldnt go to anyways.... The indoor smoking arguement is over anyways... but now they are attacking outdoor smoking.. Discuss...

again the use of 'outdoors' is skewed. Three walls, and a roof is NOT out doors. Take your home for example; knock out an outer wall, is it now an outdoor area? i think not.

If the gov says you cannot smoke, while walking down the street, while in a park, then they are attacking your right to smoke outside.

i love going on the patio at the guv since it is hot outside but not anymore since it is worse that it ever was inside the guv in terms of people being fucking rude smokers and blowing smoke directly into my face.

u non smokers have to many hang ups .. learn to adjust like we r .. we gave up the insdie of the club so its only fair you give up the patio

quote:

Originally posted by raveed u non smokers have to many hang ups .. learn to adjust like we r .. we gave up the insdie of the club so its only fair you give up the patio

learning to adjust to cancer from a known poisonous environment is not a fallback.
I cant wait until you cant smoke anywhere but your own property. That will make me super happy.

But I will be upset if they ban smoking. People can destruct themselves, just not wreak havoc on the lives of others.

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