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-- Explosives disappear...
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| Originally posted by occrider So wait, the Americans recognize the monumental value of bombing the dump yet fail to track, what must be a very visible undertaking, the movement of 300 tons of explosives? |
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Huh? We use the nbc reporter's accounts to dispute the facts of the case and when the reporter elaborates with greater detail we're not to trust them? I'm missing something here ... |
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Perhaps Kerry should, however, in this case the silence is nothing but an indication that the Pentagon realised that they fu*ked up. |
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| If someone accuses you of something you didn't do the typical response is to defend yourself ... |
). What, just a couple months ago I could of sworn you were arguing in one thread that just because somebody doesn't say something does not mean they are guilty.
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| Originally posted by Yoepus Its not monumental or brain science. You know of an ammo dump - you put a bomb on it. As mentioned before, they probably knew the Iraqis moved ammo out, but they still were going to bomb it none the less. And contrary to popular belief the USA does not know what is happening in every square foot of Iraq at every minute of every day for the past 10 years. |
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Given the size of the missing cache, it would have been difficult to relocate undetected before the invasion, when U.S. spy satellites were monitoring activity at sites suspected of concealing nuclear and biological weapons. "You don't just move this stuff in the middle of the night," said a former U.S. intelligence official who worked in Baghdad. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...-home-headlines |
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Yup. I don't know if this is the very same NBC reporter who's account has been used. For all I know she could have been some extra on the assignment making up some story today to get some air time and a promotion. Like I said, I never trust a reporter - I don't care if she is arguing for 'my side' doesn't make her credible, especially if we have two inconsistant reports coming out of the same mouth. The great thing about how I solve the issue is that you don't even need to use a reporter's account on this - you can use your own common sense and think for yourself that the Iraqis were smart enough to move their most valuable explosives from known sites days if not months ahead of bombardment. |
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March 2003: Nuclear agency inspectors visited Al-Qaqaa for the last time but did not examine the explosives because the seals were not broken. The inspectors then pulled out of the country. http://www.nola.com/newsflash/iraq/...&storylist=iraq |
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Col. John Peabody, engineer brigade commander of the 3rd Infantry Division, said troops found thousands of five-centimetre by 12-centimetre boxes, each containing three vials of white powder, together with documents written in Arabic that dealt with how to engage in chemical warfare. A senior U.S. official familiar with initial testing said the powder was believed to be explosives. The finding would be consistent with the plant's stated production capabilities in the field of basic raw materials for explosives and propellants. http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/n...readiness01.htm |
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Nope, you are throwing in conjection. There is a lot of reasons to remain quiet. Here is one: My own personal theory is that the Pentagon simply could not confirm or deny this report (much like Kerry) and simply chose to stay quiet until they got all their own internal facts straight. |
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So everyone who has pleaded the fifth or said "no comment" is guilty? Why, what an interesting discovery and novel approach to justice! We can get rids of courts and all that lousy bureaucracy and lawywers tommorow! Occrider just discovered a novel way to find out if somebody is guilty of innocent - if he is guilt he will remain quiet, if he is innocent he will tell us so! Thanks |
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Occrider, come on - I can't believe you of all people have been swept up with this tide of political-motivated bias. Are you listening to what you are saying? You are sounding more like Opus (no offense there Opus, I'm a big fan of all your recent tin-hat accomplishments ). What, just a couple months ago I could of sworn you were arguing in one thread that just because somebody doesn't say something does not mean they are guilty. |
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| Originally posted by occrider Your entire argument is based on conjecture. Let's look at the facts: The explosives were there a week before the invasion. US troops did not properly search the facility when they stopped there. US troops did find explosives at the dump. The Iraqi government said that the explosives were stolen after Saddam was toppled due to poor security. Nothing indicates that the explosives were moved prior to the invasion. |
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Copyright 2003 Valley Daily Bulletin Inland Valley Daily Bulletin (Ontario, CA) April 4, 2003 Friday LENGTH: 813 words [SNIP] Troops encounter unknown chemical items As the military advances closer to Baghdad, signs of Iraqichemical preparedness are multiplying, although there is still no conclusive evidence Saddam Hussein's regime possesses weapons of mass destruction. On Friday, troops at a training facility in the westernIraqi desert came across a bottle labeled "tabun" a nerve gas and chemical weapon Iraq is banned from possessing. Closer to Baghdad, troops at Iraq's largest militaryindustrial complex found nerve agent antidotes, documents describing chemical warfare and a white powder that appeared to be used for explosives. U.N. weapons inspectors went repeatedly to the vast al QaQaa complex most recently on March 8 but found nothing during spot visits to some of the 1,100 buildings at the site 25 miles south of Baghdad. Col. John Peabody, engineer brigade commander of the 3rdInfantry Division, said troops found thousands of 2-by-5-inch boxes, each containing three vials of white powder, together with documents written in Arabic that dealt with how to engage in chemical warfare. |
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KERRY: That's why Senator Lugar says: incompetent in the delivery of services. That's why Senator Hagel, Republican, says, you know: beyond pitiful, beyond embarrassing, in the zone of dangerous. We didn't guard 850,000 tons of ammo. That ammo is now being used against our kids. Ten thousand out of 12,000 Humvees aren't armored. I visited some of those kids with no limbs today, because they didn't have the armor on those vehicles. They didn't have the right body armor. I've met parents who've on the Internet gotten the armor to send their kids. There is no bigger judgment for a president of the United states than how you take a nation to war. And you can't say, because Saddam might have done it 10 years from now, that's a reason; that's an excuse. |
yall haters should notice this is no longer on the front page (or anywhere i saw) of the NYTimes. tells me a lot.
"The nuclear agency pulled out of Iraq in 1998, and by the time it returned in 2002, it confirmed that 35 tons of HMX that had been placed under IAEA seal were missing."
"ElBaradei told the United Nations in February 2003 that Iraq had declared that ``HMX previously under IAEA seal had been transferred for use in the production of industrial explosives, primarily to cement plants as a booster for explosives used in quarrying."
recognize that name?
this is such a farce. lets get the elections over with and all of this will come to an end.
fairly cool
http://www.drudgereport.com/nbcw6.htm
click on the NBC report taking Kerry apart.
the reportes are saying that there were no IAEA tags on anything they saw.
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| Originally posted by Q5echo yall haters should notice this is no longer on the front page (or anywhere i saw) of the NYTimes. tells me a lot. "The nuclear agency pulled out of Iraq in 1998, and by the time it returned in 2002, it confirmed that 35 tons of HMX that had been placed under IAEA seal were missing." "ElBaradei told the United Nations in February 2003 that Iraq had declared that ``HMX previously under IAEA seal had been transferred for use in the production of industrial explosives, primarily to cement plants as a booster for explosives used in quarrying." recognize that name? this is such a farce. lets get the elections over with and all of this will come to an end. |
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ElBaradei: "Iran has no nuclear weapons program" 10/3/2004 7:00:00 AM GMT International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Director General Mohamed ElBaradei revealed that Iran is not developing any nuclear weapons program and that the issue of Iran�s nuclear file must be resolved diplomatically to avoid going through a similar bitter experience like Iraq, Al Asharq al-Awsat reported on Saturday. �Iran has no nuclear weapons program, but I personally don�t rush to conclusions before all the realities are clarified. So far I see nothing which could be called an imminent danger. I have seen no nuclear weapons program in Iran. What I have seen is that Iran is trying to gain access to nuclear enrichment technology, and so far there is no danger from Iran. Therefore, we should make use of political and diplomatic means before thinking of resorting to other alternatives,� ElBaradei said. When asked about the IAEA report on Iran�s nuclear program that is expected to be issued next month, ElBaradei told the daily, �We have actually started compiling the report and it will be ready at the specified time before the Board of Governors meeting. So far, nothing new has surfaced, and we still call on Iran to help resolve the outstanding issues. In order to resolve the problem we have asked them to suspend the enrichment of uranium as a confidence-building measure, and we are still negotiating.� ElBaradei noted that it was too early to consider referring Iran�s nuclear dossier to the UN Security Council. Worst-case scenario He, moreover, stated that referring Iran�s nuclear dossier to the UN Security Council for violating the provisions of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) would be the worst-case scenario. �We hope we will not have to adopt obligatory measures (about Iran) and also prefer not to make judgments about Iran withdrawing from the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty,� he told the paper. �Our findings in Iraq proved that the agency was right because we didn�t find anything which indicated the presence of nuclear weapons in Iraq. �If we want to take a lesson from Iraq, we should not rush before all realities are clarified, and this is what we want to do about Iran.� In September 18, the IAEA adopted a tough resolution demanding Iran to halt its all enrichment-related activities. The IAEA Board is set to meet again on November 25. |
IAEA definitely has an axe to grind with the Bush Adminstration.| quote: |
| Mohamed ElBaradei is seeking a third term at the helm of the U.N. nuclear watchdog, a move opposed by the Bush administration...... A senior Bush administration official said recently that Washington's chief reservation is the two-term limit, but indicated that officials had problems with some of Mr. ElBaradei's judgments in recent investigations. "We've made it clear to him that we support a two-term limit on agency heads," said the official. "We're trying to be gentlemanly about it." |
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| Originally posted by MisterOpus1 And finally, I'm sure all of you remember the story about Zarqawi, and how our Administration botched/directly avoided killing him out right several times before the war: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/ The WSJournal also finally picked this one up too: http://online.wsj.com/article_email...IaKmGm4,00.html So let's just put 2 and 2 together here - we had the opportunity to nail Zarqawi but failed to do so. We had the opportunity to secure hundreds of tons of explosives but failed to do so. Now we see both the explosives AND Zarqawi all too closely as they are combined to murder our troops and innocent Iraqi civilians we are supposed to protect. Need I say anything further about this Administration and Iraq? |
More Josh Marshall goodness:
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Now, NBC's Jim Miklaszewski (an embedded reporter who was at Al QaQaa w/ 101st Airborne that day) the just went on MSNBC with this follow-up (emphasis added) ... Following up on that story from last night, military officials tell NBC News that on April 10, 2003, when the Second Brigade of the 101st Airborne entered the Al QaQaa weapons facility, south of Baghdad, that those troops were actually on their way to Baghdad, that they were not actively involved in the search for any weapons, including the high explosives, HMX and RDX. The troops did observe stock piles of conventional weapons but no HMX or RDX. And because the Al Qaqaa facility is so huge, it's not clear that those troops from the 101st were actually anywhere near the bunkers that reportedly contained the HMX and RDX. Three months earlier, during an inspection of the Al Qaqaa compound, the International Atomic Energy Agency secured and sealed 350 metric tons of HMX and RDX. Then in March, shortly before the war began, the I.A.E.A. conducted another inspection and found that the HMX stockpile was still intact and still under seal. But inspectors were unable to inspect the RDX stockpile and could not verify that the RDX was still at the compound. Pentagon officials say elements of the 101st airborne did conduct a thorough search of several facilities around the Al QaQaa compound for several weeks during the month of April in search of WMD. They found no WMD. And Pentagon officials say it's not clear at that time whether those other elements of the 101st actually searched the Al QaQaa compound. Now, Pentagon officials say U.S. troops and members of the Iraq Survey Group did arrive at the Al QaQaa compound on May 27. And when they did, they found no HMX or RDX or any other weapons under seal at the time. Now, the Iraqi government is officially said that the high explosives were stolen by looters. Pentagon officials claim it's possible -- they're not sure, they say, but it's possible that Saddam Hussein himself ordered that these high explosives be removed and hidden before the war. What is clear is that the 350 metric tons of high explosives are still missing, and that the U.S. or Iraqi governments or international inspectors, for that matter, cannot say with any certainty where they are today. |
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| Originally posted by surferfb More Josh Marshall goodness: Also, I find it highly unlikely that Saddam got those weapons out of there before the war. We would have followed any attempt of Saddam moving 380 Tons of explosives, thinking they were WMDs. That is just common sense, and if it happened and we weren't checking it out, it proves Kerry's point that this administration was incompetant when it went to war. |
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| Originally posted by tecnolover Opus, it wasn't smart for you to go here. From your own cited source... "In June 2002, U.S. officials say intelligence had revealed that Zarqawi and members of al-Qaida had set up a weapons lab at Kirma, in northern Iraq, producing deadly ricin and cyanide." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/ "But the raid on Mr. Zarqawi didn't take place. Months passed with no approval of the plan from the White House, until word came down just weeks before the March 19, 2003, start of the Iraq war that Mr. Bush had rejected any strike on the camp until after an official outbreak of hostilities with Iraq. Ultimately, the camp was hit just after the invasion of Iraq began."http://online.wsj.com/article_email...IaKmGm4,00.html Look at the time frame here. Sept 11 already occured. This report was in summer 2002. We invaded in 2003! Thanks Opus! this serves as a nice reminder/news to everyone in the whole world that there was indeed strong evidence that Saddam was tied to Al-Qaida terrorist groups after sept. 11. Are you going to now suggest that Saddam didn't even know these people were setting up a weapons lab in his own country?? He was harboring Al-Qaida. That is the reason we went into Afghanistan because they were harboring. This is one of the reasons we invaded Iraq. Again more support for my argument that we waited toooooooo long to attack and wasted time with the UN bull***. You seem to be supporting my argument now that we should have attacked Iraq sooner! just like Kerry is unknowingly (because he's an idiot) suggesting. How funny! Because it's you libs who were blaming Bush for not getting UN approval and attacking too soon! and now you are all suggesting we screwed up because we didn't go in sooner! Bush's security council rejected military actions in Iraq against Zarqawi and A-Qaida because they were still trying to get multi-national support and UN approval. He was doing the gentlemanly and diplomatic thing until it was evident that the delay was favoring the enemy too much and so he acted. The Bush admins only mistake in this war is that they didn't choose to attack sooner and gave the enemy too much time to prepare. You guys are all hanging yourselves with your own rope and losing any credibility you might have had. (Just off the record Opus, I think it's very repulsive of you to in a time of war to oppose the Bush admin just because you are so concerned about the political power imbalance here in USA. It's also repulsive that you appear to think of this war as very insignificant. I gathered this from reading another of your posts of which I didn't reply because I know where you are comming from and your mind is closed like a refrigerator. From what I've read from your post you have no clue to the seriousness of this war. If you were in the shoes of a US soldier your perspective would be much different. But you're probably just an old fart who thinks the war isn't going to affect him in any way. For all you know Opus this war could indeed affect you and even your own family and home in the near future. In a time of war we should be banding together supporting our pres. and less concerned about which party has the most power right now. We are a nation. Remember??! It's your kind of ignorance and selfishness that has caused this ugly split and the reason someone like this poor-choice of-a-candidate Kerry has even got the support he has.) Lets get this stinking election over with so that Bush can get back to business. This f****** election has delayed and hindered military operations way too long now! Sincerely, Pissed Off |
MFWERD
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| Originally posted by speedracer_mec Can you compare the ease of mobility of the these explosives with the mobility of actual WMDs? And the whereabouts of the U.N. |
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You liberals need to make up your mind. Did Saddam have weapons or not? You are arguing that there NEVER WERE weapons and now want to argue that we let them be stolen. |
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How about picking a side and sticking to it... You are flip-flopping as much as your dishonorable candidate. |
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Lexis-Nexis and http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83252,00.html Also something smells fishy with the Kerry camp and the liberal media, come to mind CBS and the New York Times |
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Col. John Peabody, engineer brigade commander of the 3rd Infantry Division, said troops found thousands of five-centimetre by 12-centimetre boxes, each containing three vials of white powder, together with documents written in Arabic that dealt with how to engage in chemical warfare. A senior U.S. official familiar with initial testing said the powder was believed to be explosives. The finding would be consistent with the plant's stated production capabilities in the field of basic raw materials for explosives and propellants. http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/n...readiness01.htm |
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This was in the SECOND Debate, October 8th. NBC reported on the 380 tons missing when we arrived on October 10th. CBS/NYT spun/faked this news to imply the cache was there and just disappeared a few days ago (FALSE). This report was on October 25th. CBS planned to run their story on October 31st to alter the election. Why is Kerry claiming we lost 850,000 TONS of ammo? 850,000????? Where did he get this information two days before any report of the missing explosives? Kerry was talking about being attacked by missing ammo during the debates. His characterization mirrors the NYT/CBS propaganda piece too closely for my comfort. He must have known the story was going to run, and/or either slipped up. Info on this dump had not been packaged this way yet. Kerry WAS privy to the upcoming story. Who thought NBC would have the integrity to blow the whistle on this refitted non-story? Not me. Ridiculous shit to say the least |
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Q Hi, general, Mark Stone (sp), ABC News. Two very quick questions, if I may. David Kay is giving a closed-session briefing today back in the States regarding the weapons of mass destruction. Can you give us any update here on whether anything has been found, or what's happening there? Second question is regarding the ammunition dumps around the country, and whether they are secure. I think the Pentagon was saying that, yes, they are secure. Another of your colleagues said that there was no way you could secure them. Can you give us any updates on whether they are secure, and if they aren't whether there's any evidence that weapons from these ammo dumps have been used to attack your forces? GEN. SANCHEZ: First of all, on David Kay's report, I think it's probably best for all of us to wait and see what David Kay says when he publishes his report later on today. On the ammunition dumps, I think we've made it very clear that there's so much ammunition in this country that you can't guard it all. There are over 650,000 tons of ammunition in this country, and it is -- you know, if you ask me could some of that ammunition possibly been used against my forces? Of course it's possible. And are they all guarded? No, they're not. Are they -- do we have measures in place to provide some measure of security? Of course we do. We have put up berms against all of these -- or a lot of these ammunition dumps. We have put up patrolling sequences that we conduct, both aerial and ground. We conduct security operations around them. When we find looters, we engage or arrest them. But it's a physical impossibility when you think in terms of the numbers of ammunition dumps that are out there. We find them every day. Every single day we are finding more. You have ammo dumps out there that are 15 kilometers by 15 kilometers. To physically guard every single bunker is impossible. And I'm not going to stand up here and tell you that every one of those is guarded. http://www.cpa-iraq.org/transcripts...chez-Brief.html |
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| Originally posted by occrider What are you talking about? It doesn't matter what is being moved, it matters the amount that is being moved. The US was fully aware of the importance of that dump site, and most certainly were monitoring it with predator drones or satellites to see if WMDs were being deployed to Iraqi troops ... at least if they were competant. Are you telling me the US was completely oblivious to over 300 tons of something being moved from a major weapons depo a week before the invasion? At a time when we had special forces, UAVs, and satellites busy preparing for the invasion? You're kidding me right? Are you so dumb that you can't distinguish between a weapon of mass destruction from normal weapons such as explosives? This is getting pedantic but I'll humor you. No Saddam did NOT have weapons of mass destruction which was the reason given to invade Iraq. Yes Saddam HAS weapons such as explosives which the Pentagon allowed to be stolen. Is that simple enough to understand? Speedracer, I've addressed every single supposed "flip-flopping" case that you've raised. I even went one further and addressed the flip-flopping cases that Q5Echo raised. Not you nor anyone else has rebutted a single one of my arguments with respect to flip-flopping ... not to mention addressed any one of the bush flip-flops myself or countless others have pointed out. Until you do so (and please let me know if you want me to provide the links) I'll simply assume that you like to talk a lot of shit without substantiating your arguments. Ummm I just posted a similar article above. If you had bothered to post the entire article rather than use a misleading clip, you will notice that the VERY next paragraph states: Actually there have been well publicized incidents of raids against unguarded ammo dumps in the past. Incidents such as unguarded nuclear facilities with tons of nuclear material were published a year ago: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...35498-2003Apr24 As for Kerry's exact figure. I'm not entirely certain where he got the figure. However, there have been plenty of coalition authority briefings done where the CPA has specifically addressed the issue of security at ammo dumps: This was in 2003. Considering Sanchez himself stated that they were uncovering more ammo dumps every day, it's not unreasonable to assume that they've uncovered a significant greater quantity of ammunition since then and considering troop levels haven't increased it's further not far off the mark to assume that many of these new sites are not adequately guarded. |
ANTI-GUN KERRY
FACT: Kerry co-sponsors a bill that would ban all semi-automatic shotguns and detachable-magazine semi-automatic rifles, a gigantic step toward bringing Australian-style gun control to the U.S.1
1. Signed on as co-sponsor of S. 1431 on Nov. 21, 2003.
FACT: Kerry says, "I think you ought to tax all ammunition, personally, I think you ought to tax guns."2
2.CNN "Late Edition," Nov. 7, 1993
FACT: Kerry has voted nine times in favor of banning semi-auto firearms.3.
3.Vote No. 24, March 2, 2004; Vote No. 295, Aug. 25, 1994; Vote No. 294, Aug. 25, 1994; Vote No. 293, Aug. 25, 1994; Vote No. 375, Nov. 17, 1993; Vote No. 365, Nov. 9, 1993; Vote No. 133, June 28, 1990; Vote No. 103, May 23, 1990; Vote No. 102, May 23, 1990.
FACT: Kerry has voted for a Ted Kennedy amendment to ban most center-fire rifle ammunition, including the most common rounds used by hunters and target shooters.4
4. Vote No. 28, March 2, 2004.
FACT: Kerry has voted to close off hundreds of thousands of acres of the California Mojave Desert to hunting.5
5. Vote No. 87, April 12, 1994.
FACT:Kerry has voted to hold the highly regulated American firearms industry legally responsible for the illegal acts of violent criminals.6
6. Vote No. 24, March 2, 2004; Vote No. 25, March 2, 2004 ("poison pill" amendments).
FACT: Kerry was one of only 18 Senators to oppose the Firearms Owners` Protection Act, which ended alarming abuses being committed under the 1968 Gun Control Act.7
7. Vote No. 142, July 9, 1985.
FACT:Kerry was one of only 29 Senators to vote to prohibit gun manufacturers from discharging debts created by the reckless lawsuits filed by municipalities.8
8. Vote No. 4, Feb. 2, 2000.
FACT:Kerry has voted to allow BATF to conduct unlimited warrantless inspections of FFL holders.9
9. Vote No. 140, July 9, 1985.
FACT: Kerry has voted to criminalize legal sales between private individuals at gun shows.10
10. Vote No. 134, May 20, 1999; Vote No. 25, March 2, 2004.
FACT: Kerry has voted to impose penalties of a year in prison and a $10,000 fine on an adult if a juvenile steals a firearm from him, and then merely displays it in a public place.11
11. Vote No. 118, May 14, 1999; Vote No. 224, July 22, 1998.
FACT: Kerry has voted to force many small firearms dealers out of business, which would have impacted both the availability and price of guns, particularly in rural areas.12
12. Vote No. 227, July 30, 1993.
FACT: Kerry has voted 11 times to force law-abiding citizens to wait to exercise their Second Amendment rights. He voted to keep the federal waiting period after the National Instant Check System was in place.13
13. Vote No. 141, July 9, 1985; Vote No. 115, June 28, 1991; Vote No. 113, June 28, 1991; Vote No. 278, Nov. 27, 1991; Vote No. 53, Mar. 19, 1992; Vote No. 262, Oct. 2, 1992; Vote No. 385, Nov. 19, 1993; Vote No. 386, Nov. 19, 1993; Vote No. 387, Nov. 19, 1993; Vote No. 390, Nov. 19, 1993; Vote No. 394, Nov. 20, 1993.
FACT: Kerry voted twice to eliminate the Civilian Marksmanship Program.14
14. Vote No. 325 Oct. 12, 1993; Vote No. 178, June 27, 1996.
FACT: Kerry wants to silence gun owners` voices. When NRA sought the same exemption from campaign finance rules that news organizations have, Kerry called that effort "hijacking America`s airwaves."15
15. Vote No. 64, April 2, 2001; "Kerry asks FEC to Block NRA Channel," AP, Dec. 9, 2003.
This is only his Voting Record on Guns.....
With all that said, here we have Kerry
Source?======John Kerry's Senate Record.....Skerry isnt it?
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| Originally posted by occrider Clearly the US blanketed Iraq with aerial surveillance drones as well as satellite coverage in the search for possible WMD sites. |
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They would have clearly took note of large shipments from known major weapons dump that was a likely candidate for nuclear/biological weapons storage. One would like to think that the US was not so stupid as to let the Iraqis reposition all their supplies and bomb empty positions. |
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The reporter didn't change her stance. |
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The site was inspected a mere week before the invasion and the seals were intact. |
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| The issue is pretty much moot however, since it was clearly reported back in 2003 that troops did indeed find explosives when it occupied the camp |
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The explosives were there a week before the invasion. |
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US troops did not properly search the facility when they stopped there. |
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| US troops did find explosives at the dump. |
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| The Iraqi government said that the explosives were stolen after Saddam was toppled due to poor security. |
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Nothing indicates that the explosives were moved prior to the invasion. |
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This isn't a court of justice. This is public relations. If the Pentagon had solid evidence that they were not culpable for this they would present it. Granted it's not sole evidence to support the claims of incompetance, but that along with every other account of events solidify into a rather credible account. |
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I have politically chosen sides, however, this is hardly political "bias". On a scale, the majority of evidence simply weighs on one side so disproportionately. Therefore my convictions on this matter are simply based on the preponderance of the evidence ... same as it is in every other matter and why I hate conspiracy theories so. |
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| Originally posted by occrider This was in 2003. Considering Sanchez himself stated that they were uncovering more ammo dumps every day, it's not unreasonable to assume that they've uncovered a significant greater quantity of ammunition since then and considering troop levels haven't increased it's further not far off the mark to assume that many of these new sites are not adequately guarded. |
Honestly Mr. Opus and all you Kerry supporters,
I think right about now you had better be hoping that Kerry doesn't open his dumb mouth again until the election is over. He's just about dug his own grave this time. If it wasn't for all Kerry's Bush hating supporters to dig him out and soften the damage every time, he would have already been six feet under long ago. It must be hard trying to constantly defend your man from his own stupidity. For this I respect your effort even if most of us see right through it.
Kerry's 'October suprise' is really looking like his 'October demise'.
speedracer, first of all, I would like to ask you if you disagree with Kerry's proposals about gun control? I can't see how you can be for people to have automatic firearms at home. You can allow people to have tanks and fighter jets in their backyards too, but then you shouldn't be surprised when a guy goes wacko and starts launching missiles at his neighbours. Ask yourself why US has the 10 times higher gun murder rate than the rest of civilized world.
Now, your attempt to show Kerry flip flopping is again rediculous and retarded and only capable of decieving idiots. Kerry has not ever stated that he is completely against guns, he has only stated that he is for a tighter gun control. It's like me being for speed limits on highways and then you take a picture of me standing next to my car. Wow. So what have you proved with that? Nothing. Please, your consistent spamming is really irritating, and it's obvious to everyone that you're taking things out of context. Noone really takes you seriously anymore so you might just as well stop.
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| Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Nothing. Please, your consistent spamming is really irritating, and it's obvious to everyone that you're taking things out of context. Noone really takes you seriously anymore so you might just as well stop. |
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| Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Ask yourself why US has the 10 times higher gun murder rate than the rest of civilized world. |
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...q_us_explosives
Iraq says 'impossible' explosives taken before regime fall
BAGHDAD (AFP) - A top Iraqi science official said it was impossible that 350 tonnes of high explosives could have been smuggled out of a military site south of Baghdad before the regime fell last year.
The UN nuclear watchdog this week said about 350 tonnes of high explosives went missing from a weapons dump some time after Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime was toppled in April 2003 after the US-led invasion .
But as the issue of the missing explosives took centre stage in the final days of the US presidential campaign, some US officials have suggested they had gone before the US-led forces moved on Baghdad.
"It is impossible that these materials could have been taken from this site before the regime's fall," said Mohammed al-Sharaa, who heads the science ministry's site monitoring department and previously worked with UN weapons inspectors under Saddam.
"The officials that were inside this facility (Al-Qaqaa) beforehand confirm that not even a shred of paper left it before the fall and I spoke to them about it and they even issued certified statements to this effect which the US-led coalition was aware of."
Sharaa also warned that other nearby sites with similar materials could have also been plundered.
"The Al-Milad Company in Iskandariyah and the Yarmouk and Hateen facilities contained explosive materials that could have also been taken out," the official told AFP in an interview.
The Al-Qaqaa facility is near the town of Latifiyah, 30 kilometers (18 miles) south of Baghdad and the bulk of materials in question include HMX (high melting point explosive) and RDX (rapid detonation explosive), which experts say can be used in major bombing attacks, making missile warheads and detonating nuclear weapons.
The area in Babil province, which includes the towns of Iskandariyah and Mahmudiyah, used to be the centre of Saddam's military-industrial complex.
It is now one of the most dangerous parts of the country rife with crime, kidnappings and attacks. Several headless bodies hav been found in the area, according to marines stationed there.
"It may be already too late to salvage many of these sites, which are controlled by bandits and beyond the control of Iraqi forces," warned Sharaa.
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| Originally posted by speedracer_mec With all of that, the fact still remains that nobody has seen a IAEA seal at that place since well before the war. |
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ANTI-GUN KERRY FACT: Kerry co-sponsors a bill that would ban all semi-automatic shotguns and detachable-magazine semi-automatic rifles, a gigantic step toward bringing Australian-style gun control to the U.S.1 1. Signed on as co-sponsor of S. 1431 on Nov. 21, 2003. |
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`(C) The following shotguns or copies or duplicates thereof: `(i) Armscor 30 BG; `(ii) SPAS 12 or LAW 12; `(iii) Striker 12; or `(iv) Streetsweeper. `(D) A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine, and that has-- `(i) a folding or telescoping stock; `(ii) a threaded barrel; `(iii) a pistol grip; `(iv) a forward grip; or `(v) a barrel shroud. `(E) Except as provided in clause (ii), `(i) A semiautomatic rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds. `(ii) Clause (i) shall not apply to an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition. `(H) A semiautomatic shotgun that has-- `(i) a folding or telescoping stock; `(ii) a pistol grip; `(iii) the ability to accept a detachable magazine; or `(iv) a fixed magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds. `(I) A shotgun with a revolving cylinder. `(L) A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General. In making the determination, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any Federal law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event.'. http://www.ceasefiremd.org/4_NalLeg...n/c_BillBan.htm |
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FACT: Kerry says, "I think you ought to tax all ammunition, personally, I think you ought to tax guns."2 2.CNN "Late Edition," Nov. 7, 1993 |
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FACT: Kerry has voted nine times in favor of banning semi-auto firearms.3. 3.Vote No. 24, March 2, 2004; Vote No. 295, Aug. 25, 1994; Vote No. 294, Aug. 25, 1994; Vote No. 293, Aug. 25, 1994; Vote No. 375, Nov. 17, 1993; Vote No. 365, Nov. 9, 1993; Vote No. 133, June 28, 1990; Vote No. 103, May 23, 1990; Vote No. 102, May 23, 1990. |
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FACT: Kerry has voted for a Ted Kennedy amendment to ban most center-fire rifle ammunition, including the most common rounds used by hunters and target shooters.4 4. Vote No. 28, March 2, 2004. |
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SA 2619. Mr. KENNEDY submitted an amendment intended to be proposed by him to the bill S. 1805, to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages resulting from the misuse of their products by others; as follows: On page 11, after line 19, add the following: SEC. 5. ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION. (a) EXPANSION OF DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.--Section 921(a)(17)(B) of title 18, United States Code, is amended-- (1) in clause (i), by striking ``or'' at the end; (2) in clause (ii), by striking the period at the end and inserting a semicolon; and (3) by adding at the end the following: ``(iii) a projectile that may be used in a handgun and that the Attorney General determines, pursuant to section 926(d), to be capable of penetrating body armor; or ``(iv) a projectile for a centerfire rifle, designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability, that the Attorney General determines, pursuant to section 926(d), to be more likely to penetrate body armor than standard ammunition of the same caliber.''. (b) DETERMINATION OF THE CAPABILITY OF PROJECTILES TO PENETRATE BODY ARMOR.--Section 926 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following: ``(d)(1) Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this subsection, the Attorney General shall promulgate standards for the uniform testing of projectiles against Body Armor Exemplar. ``(2) The standards promulgated pursuant to paragraph (1) shall take into account, among other factors, variations in performance that are related to the length of the barrel of the handgun or centerfire rifle from which the projectile is fired and the amount and kind of powder used to propel the projectile. ``(3) As used in paragraph (1), the term `Body Armor Exemplar' means body armor that the Attorney General determines meets minimum standards for the protection of law enforcement officers.''. |
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FACT: Kerry has voted to close off hundreds of thousands of acres of the California Mojave Desert to hunting.5 5. Vote No. 87, April 12, 1994. |
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As originally written in the California desert legislation, the East Mojave area was going to be redesignated a national park. Opposition to park establishment from hunting organizations like the Safari Club and the National Rifle Association held up the desert bill in Congress. The opposition was based more on principle than genuine concern about the loss of hunting opportunities. Almost no one hunted in the proposed preserve anyway, and the number of game animals is limited to a few hundred deer and bighorn sheep. http://gorp.away.com/gorp/publisher...fe/his2_moj.htm |
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FACT:Kerry has voted to hold the highly regulated American firearms industry legally responsible for the illegal acts of violent criminals.6 6. Vote No. 24, March 2, 2004; Vote No. 25, March 2, 2004 ("poison pill" amendments). |
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FACT: Kerry was one of only 18 Senators to oppose the Firearms Owners` Protection Act, which ended alarming abuses being committed under the 1968 Gun Control Act.7 7. Vote No. 142, July 9, 1985. |
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Major Provisions: Established categories of prohibited firearms purchasers and possessors. Convicted felons, fugitives from justice, illegal drug users or addicts, minors, anyone adjudicated mentally defective or having been committed to a mental institution, anyone dishonorably discharged from the military, illegal aliens, anyone having renounced U.S. citizenship. Licenses and set standards for gun dealers. Establishes licensing fee schedule for manufacturers, importers, and dealers in firearms; sets record-keeping standards; requires licenses to be obtained from the Secretary of the Treasury; requires serial numbers on all guns. Prohibits the mail-order sales of all firearms and ammunition. Prohibits the interstate sale of firearms. A handgun purchaser may only buy a gun in the state in which he/she resides; however, long gun sales to individuals in contiguous state that did not violate either state law, were allowed. (Today, long guns may be purchased from gun dealers in any state, regardless of purchaser's state of residence). Sets age guidelines for firearms purchased through dealers. � Handgun purchasers must be at least 21. � Long gun purchasers must be at least 18. Prohibits the importation of non-sporting weapons. The importation of "Saturday Night Special" handguns and some semiautomatic assault rifles (the 43 weapons covered in the 1989 Bush Administration ban) as well as two military shotguns have been barred under this section of the law. Sets penalties for carrying & using firearms in crimes of violence or drug trafficking. Prohibits importation of weapons covered in the National Firearms Act and extends NFA restrictions to machine gun frames and receivers and conversion kits (i.e., parts to make machine guns). Prohibits importation of foreign-made military surplus firearms. Prohibited the sale and manufacture of new fully automatic civilian machine guns (effectively freezing the number of them in circulation). This provision was adamantly opposed by the NRA. In fact, some of its most radical members did not want the McClure/Volkmer bill to pass if it contained this provision. Immediately following the enactment of this law, the NRA announced that "its highest priority" in the next Congress would be to repeal the ban on machine guns. To date they have not introduced legislation to do this. Prohibited the sale of parts or "conversion kits" - used to make semiautomatic firearms fully automatic. Classifies silencer parts and kits as weapons falling under the National Firearm Act. http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/...e=1968&menu=gvr |
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| The information on which the Iraqi Science Ministry based an Oct. 10 memo in which it reported that 377 tons of RDX explosives were missing � presumably stolen due to a lack of security � was based on "declaration" from July 15, 2002. At that time, the Iraqis said there were 141 tons of RDX explosives at the facility. 1. But the confidential IAEA documents obtained by ABC News show that on Jan. 14, 2003, the agency's inspectors recorded that just over 3 tons of RDX was stored at the facility � a considerable discrepancy from what the Iraqis reported. The IAEA documents could mean that 138 tons of explosives were removed from the facility long before the start of the United States launched "Operation Iraqi Freedom" in March 2003. |
So the amount of explosives is not accurate. Okay.
This got out of control, a bit. The timing is bad. Elections are just around the corner. It is safe to say, whatever your political affiliation might be, that explosives are out there in the hands of the wrong people. But maybe they really did disappear/vanished, so we don't have to worry about that.
Don't play the blame game at this stage. Little is accomplished in blaming a certain organization/party/etc. Everyone has already chosen his/her candidate by now. Maybe I misunderstood some of the posts. If that's the case, I apologize.
But I still want to know where the explosives are.
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| Originally posted by Q5echo http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=204304 |
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thousands of vials of white powder, packed three to a box http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...4¬Found=true |
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A senior U.S. official familiar with initial testing said the powder was believed to be explosives. The finding would be consistent with the plant's stated production capabilities in the field of basic raw materials for explosives and propellants. http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/n...readiness01.htm |
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DAVID KAY, FORMER CHIEF U.S. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: And I'm afraid we're into a zone of which we won't know definitively what happened. We do know that the U.N. certified in early March that the explosives were there. We know that by May, when the 75th Exploitation Task Force went in, they were not there. There's a gap of about three weeks, two and a half weeks, before the war took place until a month after the war took place and we simply don't know what happened. I must say, I find it hard to believe that a convoy of 40 to 60 trucks left that facility prior to or during the war, and we didn't spot it on satellite or UAV. That is, because it is the main road to Baghdad from the south, was a road that was constantly under surveillance. I also don't find it hard to believe that looters could carry it off in the dead of night or during the day and not use the road network. I saw many Iraqi facilities in which they came by pickup truck and constantly -- it's amazing to see whole buildings disappear at the hands of looters who are not organized, who do not have heavy equipment. But I also think we ought to put it in perspective. We're talking about 400 tons of high explosives. It would be a great tool in the hands of insurgents and terrorists. But that's a country that is awash with tens of thousands of tons of explosives that have been used now for well over a year against the coalition forces there. Iraq is not short of explosives. The insurgents are not short of explosives. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI.../27/wbr.01.html |
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