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-- Ukrainian elections
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quote:

Originally posted by djash You, dude, off a moon fell or you do not know history absolutely? Ukrainians and Russians yet from a 5 century were one slavonic nation. Then the state was organized called Kievskaya Russ�. Nearer to our times territory of nowaday Ukraine belonged to Rech Pospolyta, to the Avstro-Hungurian Empire, to Russia or yet to someone. At the beginning of a 20 century Ukraine passed to Russia and the communist mode was restored. In the Second World War-time the Ukrainian nationalists wanted to go out from composition of USSR and passed to the side of the German Nazis. Detachment �SS Galychyna� was created which fighted on Nazis side. Then Germans began to militate against nationalists, and the last appeared between two armies: soviet and fascist. And while France signed capitulation before Germany, the Russian troops offered most cruel resistance to the fascists. After a couple of years they freed Ukraine, Poland, Czech, Hungary and other countries from the fascist mode. You can ask: �what difference to Ukraine under whose power is: by a fascist or soviet�? Germans burned people in stoves, and other worked in concentration camps as slaves, and in a soviet union all people were equal, there were neither the poor nor rich. The state gave work to all citizens of USSR on a profession, who worked, got a good money and lived on them perfectly, those, whoever wanted to work, put into prison, because society does not need parasites. . TV signal from abroad was blocked and people did not see a different erotica, pornography, prostitution and violence, and society had a high moral, people were friendly, good. That you saw in the American films about USSR is complete delirium of mad. Whoever lived here, doesn�t know on how such it was a good place. People loved and respected the country, and country valued the citizens. Volte-faces on worst began after disintegration of USSR: the level of poverty grew to the highest level, and a moral fell down to the zero. There is nothing unusual if you will see in the street of a 8 years young child with a cigarette in teeth. People voted for Yuschenko, which continuing traditions of nationalists of times of the Second World War (this you can see to the red-black flags � it�s a flag of �SS Galychyna�), and �patriots� which being abroad. I don�t understand, why they do not live in the favourite country, but hold meeting in other countries. Vitaly Klychko, resident in Germany, sold out at least 2 fights of book-maker for a year, arrived to support Yuschenko. A quite good company was going. People from east Ukraine, which work in mines and at the plant of heavy metallurgy, voted for Yanukovych, their voice is far more ponderable than western idlers. The Yanukovych�s Regions bring 80% of internal gross product! By the way, all factories on Ukraine were built by Russians, and all western architecture is Polish and Austrian. On itself Ukrainians would live in straw cottages, would dig vegetable garden and drink moonshine. I live in Lvov (western Ukraine) where for Yanukovycha voted 6,63%, and I among them! Speaking about violations, I will notice that in my university the pictures of Yuschenko hung near dean's office, although by regulation of higher educational establishments of Ukraine it is forbidden to conduct political agitation. I hate this country, ukrainian language (speak only russian) and want to leave from here yet from 1991 year, when Ukraine became independent. In spring I get a diploma, and me will not be here, but wish, that a country rather fell to pieces and was divided between Russia, Poland and yet anybody. East Ukraine with Crimea without western and central will live far better, and the last will fester very soon. All Lvov�s region administration was yesterday dispersed because they supported Yanukovych! My friend�s father was the head of the Lvov region only yesterday, and today he nobody!! To be Ukrainian is large disgrace, abroad all know Ukrainians as thieves and alcoholics, and does not want to take them on work! Well, that I complete opposition to the stereotype of Ukrainian!

Youre a fucking retard.

http://www.ukemonde.com/genocide/emargolis.htm

Anyway, ive just been to Ukraine this summer and all the corruption there sickens me. And now it looks like an ex-con, a RAPE ex-con no less(yeah yeah he was pardoned i know, but the details are really shady at that) might be president and Putin lackey.

Im sick of this. My country deserves better.

so now the parliament voted the election to be invalid, and Mr Yanukovych said the voteing in the parliament was illegal

so now it is apperntly up to the supreame court...

Love how people on here can just quote a website to oppose the view of someone who actually lives there......... even if you are origonally from there.

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish Love how people on here can just quote a website to oppose the view of someone who actually lives there......... even if you are origonally from there.

dude, the internet is never wrong!

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew dude, the internet is never wrong!

St_Andrew loves the cock. Look its on the internet LINKY


j/k man couldn't help myself

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish Love how people on here can just quote a website to oppose the view of someone who actually lives there......... even if you are origonally from there.

Gee so if I don't live in a country (anymore) my knowledge of its history is somehow LESS than that of a person who DOES live there?

Go shag a sheep.

quote:

Originally posted by djash You, dude,...Detachment �SS Galychyna� was created which fighted on Nazis side.

I started to see stars right there.

quote:

Then Germans began to[bb militate[/b] against nationalists, and the last appeared between two armies: soviet and fascist.

Bam. Knockout blow. WTF is going on?

quote:

And while France signed capitulation before Germany...

And as many times as I trid to make sense of the rest of that, I truly could not. Assuming you really are from the Ukraine, I can only assume you have a better idea of what's going on that I do, but I still can't understand what the hell you were just trying to say.

quote:

Originally posted by Cal Gee so if I don't live in a country (anymore) my knowledge of its history is somehow LESS than that of a person who DOES live there? Go shag a sheep.

Well flipantly dismissing a person as a "retard" and then telling me to "go shag a sheep" doesn't show much of a debating style or inteligence.

I'm from Ukraine, been living in Canada for 10 years, while having spent 2 months of this, and last, summers there.

The guy's (or girl's) english is as if he translated form russian word by work including idioms and all that. I can actually follow along in russian in my mind and find all the russian expressions that he translated.

quote:

Then Germans began to[bb militate[/b] against nationalists, and the last appeared between two armies: soviet and fascist.

Like in this line right here hes talking about how Ukrainian nationalists (who wanted to separate from USSR, as well as not be a part of Nazi Germany) were caught in the crossfire between Hitler and Stalin. The line makes a lot of sense in russian.

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish Well flipantly dismissing a person as a "retard" and then telling me to "go shag a sheep" doesn't show much of a debating style or inteligence.

Well humour is a sign of intelligence, and since you've got the scottish flag right there the sheep remark is spot on isn't it?

As for my link, had you bothered to read it, would have told you about the atrocities that Stalin has committed against the Ukrainian people, which is in direct contrast to djash's praise of USSR's regime.

Didn't know I had to spell this out for people.

Look I'm not saying that either of you is right, just that I personally don't like it when peoples opinions just get rubbished without a reason, and a poor grasp of english isn't good enough for me ( since mine is shite ). Why not argue the points with him. The rest of us would learn alot as would you .

I really don't like to write essays. Especially if his english isnt all that.

Anyway, I apologize for my outburst before. For the sheep, not the retard, I really think that guy is an idiot.

Cheers guy.

the eastern Bloc countries will always be CCCP satellites



hahha.... yip.

>JM<

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4066617.stm

weeeee

Go democracy

Great news!


Now we need to get rid of the corrupt and undemocratic regime in Ottawa, Canada!

Well written editorial by Yushchenko in today's WSJ

Link

quote:

Our Ukraine By VIKTOR YUSHCHENKO December 3, 2004; Page A18 KIEV -- For months, Ukraine's democratic forces warned officials in Kiev and other European capitals that our autumn presidential election would be neither free nor fair. Two of the main reasons for this conclusion were the incumbent government's unprecedented interference in the pre-election campaign and its censorship of the mass media. During the first election round on Oct. 31, regional governors colluded with police and other state officials to stuff ballot boxes, falsify vote counts and intimidate election commissions. Ukraine's central and territorial election commissions turned a blind eye and overlooked our well-documented official complaints. In the end, despite massive falsifications by my opponent, the central election commission was forced to concede that I won the first round of voting. During the Nov. 21 runoff vote, polling stations in the eastern regions remained open two hours after they were supposed to close officially. Some reported voter turnout exceeding 100%, while in other regions up to 35% of the ballots cast were from people's homes. Election observers were prevented from monitoring voting and counting procedures at thousands of polling stations, as permitted by Ukrainian law. Thousands of poll watchers from democratic parties together with average citizens witnessed traveling thugs with police escorts harassing election commissioners, destroying polling stations, stuffing ballots, abusing absentee voter certificates and switching commission protocols, to name just a few of the 11,000 violations officially filed by us in the courts. We are now patiently awaiting the Supreme Court's review of these complaints in the hope that justice will prevail. The last straw in the government's election fraud efforts came Monday morning, Nov. 22, when the central election commission's voting results showed Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych winner of the election, despite two independent exit polls showing otherwise. * * * Official Kiev did not anticipate that hundreds of thousands of voters would take to the streets to defend their constitutional right to vote and peacefully protest against falsified election results. They couldn't, because since the March 2002 parliamentary election, Ukraine's leaders have turned a deaf ear to voter calls for real political and economic change. They failed to recognize that two-thirds of Ukraine's citizens are dissatisfied with their leaders and their policies. They failed to recognize that no longer will people tolerate the gap between declared and real rights. They thought they could get away with staying in power by illegal means. They wanted the international community to remain silent. Now, they are forced to recognize that citizens have taken matters into their own hands. The last vestiges of remaining public trust in official Kiev, both at home and abroad, were permanently severed when the corrupt and blind government unashamedly stole from its people the most fundamental of all rights -- the right to choose one's destiny. Ukraine's people have spoken, and I am confident that we will find a solution to the complex political crisis that has developed as a result of the regime's efforts to steal the election. The most logical way out of the crisis is for repeat voting to be held speedily within the next two weeks. Talks involving international mediators this week reaffirmed this. For European and other observers, I believe there are four important conclusions that should be made with regard to current events in Ukraine. � This year Europe has witnessed two fundamental political changes: In the first half of the year, the enlargement of the European Union to include eight countries from the old Soviet bloc, and in the second half -- the presidential elections in Ukraine. What will happen in my country after the election will not only impact Ukraine's future, but, to a great extent, the future of Europe and Russia. � Thanks to television, the world today has seen a genuinely different Ukraine. Observers will no longer associate Ukraine with just Chernobyl, or corrupt regimes, or another scandal involving high-ranking officials. The world is witnessing a noble European nation, one that embraces genuine democratic values and, even more importantly, one that will stand up to defend these values with dignity. The world has seen how millions of people took to the streets and squares. For nearly two weeks, in biting cold, hundreds of thousands bravely, steadfastly and at the same time gracefully demonstrated their unwavering opposition to a corrupt, authoritarian regime. The world has looked into the eyes of millions of good people of various ages, confessions, different ethnic backgrounds -- all peacefully, as is their right under their own Constitution -- fighting for their rights. All without unrest, violence and blood: This is what the world community has seen. � The people of Ukraine have shown the world that we are much more ready to integrate into the European community than the ruling regime. Our path to Europe is not obstructed by formalities -- the absence of a formal application or a joint-action plan. No one saw a civil society in Ukraine and the desire to live according to EU standards and values. Now -- you've seen. It is important to recognize that people's demands made from the street are supported by the entire system of popularly elected representatives -- local councils, mayors, and Ukraine's Parliament, the Verkhovna Rada. Only those officials appointed by the president have adopted a position to the contrary. � Currently the outgoing regime is menacing Europe with the threat of separatism and the dissolution of Ukraine. I state with full responsibility for my words: This is a fictional, artificial threat. It does not exist. The people of Ukraine recognize that an economically prosperous nation-state tolerant of its bilingualism and multiethnic society, and respectful of all religious confessions, is Ukraine's strength and not her weakness. It is true that today, leading officials in regions which resorted to the largest number of election falsifications are now frightened when faced with taking responsibility for their crimes. They are trying to play the card of regional separatism, by adopting illegal decisions and threatening us with referendums. This process will be halted immediately. We will not allow three governors appointed by the president to tear apart our united country. And, besides, those officials will face a penalty even greater than that for election falsification from three to 15 years in prison. * * * Ukraine's democratic opposition movement stands for a peaceful resolution to the current political crisis. We oppose the use of force and will not allow anyone to smother our freedom by force. We are a genuine force, a wise one, which will lead our people to legitimate victory based on law. Mr. Yushchenko, Ukraine's prime minister from 1999-2001, leads the country's democratic opposition movement and is a candidate for the presidency of Ukraine.

indeed, very well written and good

as a person who was born and lived all life in Kyiv, i can oppose to djash and state that 95% of his post is shit

hhmmm.... I find this attention towards Ukraine really suspicious. European and North American media have been focusing this issue (favouring Yuschenko and "democracy") and, weirdly, Yushchenko is supported by the US and the EU.

Picking sides on the Ukrainian elections if you're not Ukrainian is as pointless as debating whether Bush or Kerry should've won if you're not American. Unless you're thinking about your own situation (i.e. how would my country benefit from the results?), then you shouldn't use the word democracy (or freedom, for that matter), so clearly state your intentions.

Andrey Shevchenko:
Modern Ukraine's biggest footbal star, most popular celebrity of all Ukrainians and one of the best players of FC Milano - .supports Viktor Yanukovich



LINK



Sergei Bubka - Ukraine's most famous athlete calls the election's demonstrations in Kyev a big collective farce.

"The elections in the Ukraine were honest and examined by all sides, so there is not right to cancell their results." - said Bubka in his interview to Spanish El Mundo newspaper. He says: "The situation is the following: there is only one candidate that won - Janukovich - and the opposition is just not willing to recognize this fact."

LINK


Some of the confrontations

quote:

Originally posted by erdega Andrey Shevchenko: Modern Ukraine's biggest footbal star, most popular celebrity of all Ukrainians and one of the best players of FC Milano - .supports Viktor Yanukovich Sergei Bubka - Ukraine's most famous athlete calls the election's demonstrations in Kyev a big collective farce. "The elections in the Ukraine were honest and examined by all sides, so there is not right to cancell their results." - said Bubka in his interview to Spanish El Mundo newspaper. He says: "The situation is the following: there is only one candidate that won - Janukovich - and the opposition is just not willing to recognize this fact." LINK

Slovo

quote:

Originally posted by Lira hhmmm.... I find this attention towards Ukraine really suspicious. European and North American media have been focusing this issue (favouring Yuschenko and "democracy") and, weirdly, Yushchenko is supported by the US and the EU. Picking sides on the Ukrainian elections if you're not Ukrainian is as pointless as debating whether Bush or Kerry should've won if you're not American. Unless you're thinking about your own situation (i.e. how would my country benefit from the results?), then you shouldn't use the word democracy (or freedom, for that matter), so clearly state your intentions.

I don't really understand what you mean. If I support Yuschenko, that doesn't mean I can't use the word democracy as you put it, because I believe it is both "benifitial for my country", AND democratic at the same time.

Whats the point of erdega's post? That Yanukovitch should win because Shevchenko supports him? Or that Bubka's opinion is worth more than the ruling of the Supreme Court of Ukraine?

Hell if we're going to do the athletes thing here here's what the brothers Vitaliy & Volodymyr Klitchko released:

quote:

Dear Compatriots! In this, Ukraine's fateful hour, we address our words to you not only as sports fans, but also as fellow-citizens in an appeal to your civic conscience. Today Ukraine is preparing for the second round in the presidential election. On November 21, you and your family, friends, neighbors and tens of millions of your fellow countrymen, whom you may not know by name or face, will go to polling stations to vote for our future. November 21 is not just a day to elect the new president of Ukraine. It is a day of choice for Ukraine. It is a day to which our people have aspired for more than a thousand years: through Tatar-Mongolian invasions, through Polish-Lithuanian enslavement, through oppression of the monarchy and through the blood and hunger-stricken twentieth century. Put aside your affairs and go to the polling stations to cast your vote for the future of Ukraine � for Viktor Yushchenko! We believe in victory! Vitaliy & Volodymyr Klitchko

LINK

They support Yanushenko, so now what?

And what is Slovo supposed to mean? Are you trying to say "Word"? Noone says "Word" in russian. Stick to something you know something about, numbnuts.

quote:

Originally posted by stren I don't really understand what you mean. If I support Yuschenko, that doesn't mean I can't use the word democracy as you put it, because I believe it is both "benifitial for my country", AND democratic at the same time.

Simply because of 2 simple reasons:

• Demagogy: Claiming the elections were unfair because of Russia, and the "Poison conspiracy" are traces of demagogy in the Ukrainian situation. These are two different things. One's not being chosen because of his ideals, but because of emotional manipulation.
  
• The "Outsider" factor: How can you claim for democracy if you're not a citizen? The citizens are the ones who vote and must choose whether they're happy with the system. Even if there are loads os demonstrations, that's because of the blatantly obvious fact that whoever turns out to be the chosen one, he'll face an opposition of more 40% of the country.
  
  Think of the recent American elections. Kerry had a massive support from people who weren't American citizens, simply because if Kerry were elected, they believed they'd be in a safer situation. But, would it be the best choice for America? Did Americans feel the necessary leadership from Kerry to rule the country?
  
  Even if I feared for Bush's election because his misleading crusade against terrorism, I wouldn't support any foreigner to decide what's better for my country, hence I should respect others' decision as well.
  

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