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Originally posted by TrueToTheCrew BTW if those twisted fuks want to cry about psychological effects, why not try to be a fat kid growing up in todays society. Overweight people get nothing for free. Burns my blood that we live in a society that would even debate the validity of this shit.

You can change obesity though. You have some degree of control over your own body weight.

Short of surgery, you are stuck with your gender.

Totally not comparable.

I don't think any of us can comprehend what these people feel like - at least I am affording them some sympathy, whereas most of you can't even seem to do that.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 So is vision impairment and chiropractic procedure. Both of which were delisted on Nov 1. So please, tell me why i should have to pay for these essential services now while sex change patients feel that they shouldnt? I'll support tax payer sex changes only when they relist basic procedures that i have to pay for. Otherwise if they win this court case i think optomitrists and chiropractors and their patients would have a legitimiate case.

you're right, they would have a case. I support both of those schools of medicine being covered. Keep in mind that anyone can walk into a chiropractor and receive treatment. No months of consulations, no therapy, nothing. The stringent level of screening for those seeking sex change surgery would astonish you. I think that screening of "unecessary" patients might serve the chriopractic community too, which I'm sure is ripe with "abuse" How many people go and get chiro just because "my back hurts". Great...lose some weight, stretch, and be more active. What are you going to tell a pre-op transgendered person? two different issues on SO many levels.

so...it does not follow that this surgery should therefore not be covered, simply because the others are not.

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Originally posted by Skipper eye exams are not the same as sex change operations - I'm surprised you would even try to make that comparison.

I agree... eye exams are important, sex change operations are not.

Jay for PM!

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Originally posted by MarkT I think eye exams should be covered too Jay...that's irrelevant to the debate on whether or not sex change operations should be covered or not though. Two seperate issues. If two things "ought" to be covered, the fact that one is not is not grounds to say that the other should not be covered either.

it is relevant because

a) its one of the questions i posed at the start of this debate

b) they are related because its all about prioritizing. Why should sex change patients get priority in the ranks of health care over eye exams? If we must prioritize then i think an eye exam is much more important to the health of Ontarians than a sex change.

My problem isnt necissarily with public funded sex changes. My problem is with how people can justify it on one hand while cutting basic services on the other. Also the absurdity of this court case saying it violates their rights. What about my right to be able to see clearly? What i am saying is that if they win this court case based on a violation of rights than surely i should be able to claim the same thing with denial of eye exams. To say otherwise would only illustrate the hypocrasy of the politically correct.

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf I agree... eye exams are important, sex change operations are not. Jay for PM!

What an absolutely ignorant thing to say.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 My problem isnt necissarily with public funded sex changes. My problem is with how people can justify it on one hand while cutting basic services on the other. Also the absurdity of this court case saying it violates their rights. What about my right to be able to see clearly? What i am saying is that if they win this court case based on a violation of rights than surely i should be able to claim the same thing with denial of eye exams. To say otherwise would only illustrate the hypocrasy of the politically correct.

Then go to court.

These people are DOING something about their complaint. They are taking action. Maybe you should try that, instead of spending so much time whining from behind a computer screen.

quote:

Originally posted by Skipper What an absolutely ignorant thing to say.

People who want a sex change operation need psychological help instead of an expensive procedure. Even if they do undergo the OPTIONAL procedure, I shouldn't have to pay for it.

In contrast, vision is vitally important to everyone and should be funded.

quote:

Originally posted by Skipper You can change obesity though. You have some degree of control over your own body weight.

No it's not. People are born with morbid obesity (a disease), and it's almost impossible for them to control their weight. Your statement shows just how much you really know about the challenges facing people who are obese. Too bad really, cause otherwise you'd give them the same amount of sympathy you are doling out on post-op transexuals.

quote:

Short of surgery, you are stuck with your gender. Totally not comparable. I don't think any of us can comprehend what these people feel like - at least I am affording them some sympathy, whereas most of you can't even seem to do that.

I don't think they want your sympathy actually. All they want is a sex change operation because it's the only thing that will lift them out of thier gloom (depression, sexual dissillusionment, whatever you want to call it). My point is, if it's ok for transexuals to get an operation that will essentially only help their mental well being to improve, then why isn't it ok to do the same with a woman with low self esteem, whose lived with the stigma of being small chested asking the government to pay for her breast surgery ? When you categorize people, and their depression is there a scale, and if so, how much more depression does a transexual go through, compared to say a midget, or a flat chested woman, or a guy with red hair and two left feet ? When you read the article, it cites the cases of 4 transexuals who have appealed against this law. 4 !!! I'm almost positive there are thousands as many, non-transexuals out there who could put up a strong case that they need the have their medical procedures paid for as well.

So tommorow after they have gotten the $7000 surgery and lead happy fullfilling lifes as the gender they we believe they were supposed to be, how come us stright, non-transexuals don't get the same opportunity to change our body to achieve fullfillment ? I mean come on, there are obsese people out there who i'm sure could cite all the hardships they have faced in life, the scorn society heaps on the fat, the severe pschological damage done right through childhood and now crippling them in adult life. Surely they are entitled to some tax payer funded operation that will help them lead better lifes as well. We owe it to them as much as we do to transexuals. If not more. Apply the coat of sympathy evenly for gods sake.

The question of comparing the circumstances people are in and their problems is simply not possible. Yeah, i'm sure those 4 transexuals are feeling pretty bummed right now, trapped in the wrong sex. But i'm almost positive there are ten times as many men and women trapped in their daily lifes feeling that some part of their body isn't quite the way it should be, and whether or not they can do something about it, it becomes a question of fairness in my mind that if a transexual can claim a $7000 sex change is the key to his/her happiness then i should be able to lay a similar claim. I fail to see the equality in saying yes to a procedure that is hundreads of times more expensive then an eye exam or a visit to the chiropracter simply because it is corrects a wrong a person believes they were born with.

Sorry, but there are a whole lotta of people, who aren't transexuals who can use the same argument.

quote:

Originally posted by Skipper What an absolutely ignorant thing to say.

Are you the poster girl for NDP? Just wondering.

quote:

Originally posted by Skipper You can change obesity though. You have some degree of control over your own body weight. Short of surgery, you are stuck with your gender. Totally not comparable. I don't think any of us can comprehend what these people feel like - at least I am affording them some sympathy, whereas most of you can't even seem to do that.

we may not be able to comprehend the level of pain that those people feel, but we are definatly able to undertand mental pain in general. remember, life is suffering, for everybody, these people are no different. they have been born with an extraordinary case yes, but the pain they feel, is no different than the pain i feel, or you feel. the level of that pain is arbritary.

i agree with the obesity argument. I know fat people go through a lot of pain, and being a thinner person, i put them through that pain as a kid; i wish i had not.

Many over weight people go through similar challenges in life, they get passed over for promotions, dont have as many friends, due to their reverted personalities, hell they cant even enjoy a simple game of catch without being out of breath. And im not talking about joe who ate 3 big macs for lunch, im talking about people born with the condition, which cannot be remidied by excercise/eating right.

i have a very close friend, who battle's with their sexuality, and even he sees a sex change as a luxury, and not a right.

when is the government not responsible any more? are we gonna ask them to pay for all of life's hardships?

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Originally posted by Skipper What an absolutely ignorant thing to say.

so you are saying that, he is not educated on the subbect, and if he were, then he would see your POV?

i think its just his opinion, weather its informed or not, is besides the point.

quote:

Originally posted by Kytracid No it's not. People are born with morbid obesity (a disease), and it's almost impossible for them to control their weight. Your statement shows just how much you really know about the challenges facing people who are obese. Too bad really, cause otherwise you'd give them the same amount of sympathy you are doling out on post-op transexuals.

EVERYONE is born with a gender they cannot change.
Not every obese person is born with obesity they cannot change. There are certain lifestyle factors that can reduce the risks of obesity. In some cases there are not, as you said - but in most cases, there is some degree of control over one's own body.

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf People who want a sex change operation need psychological help instead of an expensive procedure. Even if they do undergo the OPTIONAL procedure, I shouldn't have to pay for it. In contrast, vision is vitally important to everyone and should be funded.

you are ruining a great debate..
shush

btw..just want to add this is a great thread..atleast to read...I dont think I knew enough facts to have an opinion on the issue but after reading 4 pages of posts...im with mark and skipper.

quote:

Originally posted by Skipper Then go to court. These people are DOING something about their complaint. They are taking action. Maybe you should try that, instead of spending so much time whining from behind a computer screen.

If they win i just might. Im tired of special interests. It's time for someone to stick up for the common person.

quote:

Originally posted by TrueToTheCrew Are you the poster girl for NDP? Just wondering.

LOL

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Originally posted by Orko so you are saying that, he is not educated on the subbect, and if he were, then he would see your POV? i think its just his opinion, weather its informed or not, is besides the point.

No. People like her think that just because people like me don't cave into every whiney court case or agree that evryone deserves everything then surely we must be ignorant.

This is the paradox of liberalism. Liberals by definition are supposed to be open minded to all aspects of an arguement. They are also supposed to be the most sympathetic to all people. Instead what you get are elitests who think you are ignorant because you disagree with them.

I have my own ideas about how the world should work and i really have a hard time how people can come up with so many double standards such as this one. But i will never call anyone stupid or ignorant unless they are making a really really bad statement such as ive seen with the arab/isreal flame wars.

Skipper:

Please answer these questions:

Do you feel that people should be allowed to get a sex change operation yet not be able to get an eye exam?

If the answer is yes then please justify this remembering the fact that an eye exam is much more necessary to function in daily society than a sex change would be.

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf People who want a sex change operation need psychological help instead of an expensive procedure. Even if they do undergo the OPTIONAL procedure, I shouldn't have to pay for it. In contrast, vision is vitally important to everyone and should be funded.

They DO receive psychological help...if you bothered to read my posts, or do ANY research on this topic at all, you'd find that psychological evaluations are a *substantial* part of the process.

Are you, and anyone else holding your position, so ingnorant as to think that anyone can just walk into an office and book the surgery??? FFS, get a clue...then come back here and post

Jay...stop for ONE second and stop trying to make everything about "equality" and "entitlement". Equality is perhaps a noble concept, but in reality it's also a farce...because people are NOT all equal. We deserve equality under the law...but some people's needs are greater than others and, as a compassionate society, more resources are allocated to those individuals. I will likely NEVER collect welfare or CPP, yet I'll have "paid" into both programs for 50 years by the time I'll have retired. I'm ok with that because I like the society we live in. I like that if someone has a tough break, or didn't have the same opportunities I did, that there are some extra resources for them out there.

Why is this surgery perceived as sooooo different than other treatments? Why is this issue being singled out? Is it because the people complaining are ignorant and clearly look down upon people with transgendered issues? I'll suggest the answer is YES. The utter disdain for this group in some posts here is evident. Some of you here seem to feel that transgendered individuals are just "fucked up" and need nothing more than psychological help. Well, I'm pleased to see that the medical community has a more comprehensive understanding of the issue and feels otherwise...

There are people, families, etc. in state-coverd therapy, rehab, social programs, etc. for months, years, even DECADES, but *this* is the issue that is identified as a gross misallocation of resources? This is the expense that is such a "waste" when people have to pay for eye exams? LOL, give me a break!!! Picking on the easily identifiable and marginalized group who will garner little support amongst the close-minded masses? how pathetic!!! Some people may want to examine their own intollerances and ignorance before they continue to post in this thread...particularly the smokers amongst you, some of who will be receiving FREE cancer therapy at some point in the future, ought to consider that this surgery is but a *DROP* in the ocean of public healthcare spending. It's also about people who likely didn't "choose" to feel this way, unlike the idiots who chose to take up smoking, or who went skiing and hit that tree, or who hurt themselves playing b-ball, etc. and received free coverage.

btw...it appears that one of the 4 people named in the case is midway through the proceedure...then the procedure become delisted. They are fighting to have the rest of their procedure covered. That doesn't strike me as terribly unreasonable.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/nati...unal041022.html

The only person that has been violated was Jo Momma last night...

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Skipper: Please answer these questions: Do you feel that people should be allowed to get a sex change operation yet not be able to get an eye exam? If the answer is yes then please justify this remembering the fact that an eye exam is much more necessary to function in daily society than a sex change would be.

I'll take a stab at that (sorry to intervene Sarah, lol)

1. No. I think eye exams should be covered for free once per year or once per two year period...whatever is deemed necessary by the medical community.

2. While proper eye care and correction is clearly necessary for people with vision impairment to function in society, imagine being so depressed, feeling so alienated from your own physical body, and from society in general, that you can't function either. It's really not that different. You seem to be operating under the assumption that a transgendered individual could just push their issue aside and cope...and I'm saying that's likely not the case.

You seem to be placing a higher importance on vision because it's a more tangible, obvious, and measurable condition. To you, it's thus more important...but a transgendered person who's entire life is affected by their condition might argue otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT btw...it appears that one of the 4 people named in the case is midway through the proceedure...then the procedure become delisted. They are fighting to have the rest of their procedure covered. That doesn't strike me as terribly unreasonable.

That is obviously quite understandable. However I think the issue here is simply a matter or priorities in terms of what should be listed or de-listed First. and thats where all these comparisons come into play.
Do I think sex change operations should be publicly funded? If its helping out people and society then of course. BUT thats only After certain other medical procedures are funded first. I dont mean to brutally simplify any of this because its not all black and white... but I think it's a matter of seeing what conditions are most life threatening or harmful and working your way down that list...

I dont look down on transsexuals at all. I thank god im not one because it must be terribly difficult. However, i still cannot buy their arguement that it violates their rights when so many common services are delisted.

My point here is not about whether it should be listed or not. My point is that if they win this case based on discrimination then why shouldnt i be able to fight for discrimintion based on having to pay for an eye exam? If not having the right "equipment" is grounds for discrimination then not being able to see properly is as well.

I don't really care if transsexuals get free operations or not. Personally i think it would be great if they did. But there is no justification for that to happen unless they relist all the other more common procedures first.

People who need glasses or contacts have rights too. Just because they don't fall into a special politically correct special interest group doesn't lessen that. (or it shouldnt at least)

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT You seem to be placing a higher importance on vision because it's a more tangible, obvious, and measurable condition. To you, it's thus more important...but a transgendered person who's entire life is affected by their condition might argue otherwise.

Actually im placing more emphisis on it because it affects more people and has safety implications in the workplace and on the road. I dont think wrongly having a penis has actually hurt anyone. (unless it was freaking huge) LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 I don't really care if transsexuals get free operations or not. Personally i think it would be great if they did. But there is no justification for that to happen unless they relist all the other more common procedures first.

werd.

quote:

Originally posted by bARTovsky That is obviously quite understandable. However I think the issue here is simply a matter or priorities in terms of what should be listed or de-listed First. and thats where all these comparisons come into play. Do I think sex change operations should be publicly funded? If its helping out people and society then of course. BUT thats only After certain other medical procedures are funded first. I dont mean to brutally simplify any of this because its not all black and white... but I think it's a matter of seeing what conditions are most life threatening or harmful and working your way down that list...

Absolutely!

The government is always going to have a funding priority list and if cuts need to be done, then someone is going to loose out.
It would be nice to live up in that cloudy utopian society where every medical procedure was covered but we don't live there.
The government is accountable to its taxpayers (nee voters) too, not just special interest groups.
Is it fair? Hey, life isn't fair and it depends on who you ask.
Build your own rainbow...

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