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quote:

Originally posted by zig ok point number 5 is probably the only one that i would have a problem with if im devoted to my girlfriend for example it hardly constitutes religion imo,considering yhat the first 4 points are very specific and really are not open to much arguement i think point number 5 is very loosely worded another example would be my job,i love my job and im devoted to it but again it hardly constitutes religion ,anyone else have any ophinions

I agree with you, but one could indeed be religious about their job or their girlfriend. So at least in some cases 5 applies but not in all...

For fucks sake!

NO DEFINITIONS!!!!!!!!

It's very late so I'm going to have to be quick, but suffice to say that this claim (that the exodus never occurred) is not new and - if we examine the evidence impartially - also seems to be quite accurate.

I'll quickly run through the points, which I'll elaborate upon when I have the time / if I'm pressed:

• There is no archaeological evidence that would suggest that any significant number of people of Jewish ancestory ever lived in Egypt in any capacity (i.e. we can find absolutely no traces of Jewish culture in the country from that time period).
  
• No surviving Egyptian historical record mentions the enslavement of Jewish people or the subsequent Exodus.
  
• By the time the Jewish people first appear in Egyptian historical records, they are already situated in modern-day Isreal.
  
• The books of the Bible describing the exodus and early Jewish history were written by Jewish refugees in Assyria in about 600 BC, several hundred years after the after all these events were supposed to have taken place (it would be like us commenting on, say, 16th century Europe with only legends passed down orally to go by).
  
• Virtually every historical event that was supposed to have occurred before this time either demonstrably didn't happen or at least left absolutely no evidence of its occurrance (strange given that the scale of some of the events should have left us with some evidence of them occurring - i.e. the crazy, Gaza strip ramsackings that Joshua inspired) .
  
• Virtually every historical firgure that was supposed to have lived before this time either demonstrably didn't exist or at least left no absolutely evidence of their existence (strange given the large power or influence some were supposed to have wielded - i.e. Solomon and David).
  
• The formation of the monotheistic Jewish faith is far more mundane and it's origins (based on archaeological evidence) can be traced back to the mountainous areas of modern day Isreal, where refugees of several distinct tribes (each displaced from their fertile, Gaza strip villages by those marauding Philistines) united, despite their theological differences, under a single God (creating, I believe, the oldest surviving monotheistic religion in the world).

quote:

Originally posted by kaffeemeister I rather not as well... as i predict that it'll get messy ... perhaps Opus might be willing to give ya some insights into the topic. However, as a regular trend of "religious discussions", it tends get long and tedious for both sides, at the end we'll either agree on nothing or agree on little. At the same time if one is not aware of the tone of language he/she speaks in, it'll easy piss the other person off . LINK The above link is just of the stuff i was referring to. As the header of the page says "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed", it's predictable you'll disagree with it, and i'm fine with that The definition of the world faith is heavily disputed, you can say that it describes "complete confidence in something" or "belief in the divine and supernatural powers"; either that or "all of the above". To be an atheist it's just simply " god == "null"; ", any other conflicitly definition of it within the whole belief system of a person would crash the OS . But i think where you're getting, and you're sorta right in that. There's a lot of words in the english language that aren't "explicit" enough, thus i propose we start using "nswspeak"

the link u provided..

basically, it is a good passage nuetrally speaking. though, his accounts were written by eye-witnesses of his life. he was put on trial before pilate, which is in roman records. historically accurate, he did exist, he even went before herod, the king of judah. roman accounts describe an earthquake, the jewish temple being destroyed and the alter of sacrifice being split right in half. there are secular records of this. jerusalem was turned upside looking for jesus's body when the roman soldiers gaurding it abandoned it out fear from the sight of an angel. they were looking for the body. this is all historical evidence. over 500 people saw jesus after he had died and risen. he stayed for 40 more days before he ascended to heaven. eye-witness accounts of this exist.

i still hold true to my premise that atheism isnt possible. i looked up the definition of god in the dictionary and one of them is..

3 : a person or thing of supreme value

whatever u hold of supreme value is your god.

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Originally posted by zig i think Tomer has a good point what is the defination of religion ..oxford english dictionary 1. the belief in a superhuman controlling power,esp.in a personal god or gods entitled to obiedience or worship 2. the expression of this in worship 3. a particular system of faith and worship 4. life under monastic vows 5. a thing one is devoted to ok point number 5 is probably the only one that i would have a problem with if im devoted to my girlfriend for example it hardly constitutes religion imo,considering yhat the first 4 points are very specific and really are not open to much arguement i think point number 5 is very loosely worded another example would be my job,i love my job and im devoted to it but again it hardly constitutes religion ,anyone else have any ophinions

your idea of religion is very narrow. we all have a religion. but because u dont agree with definition 5 does not make it untrue. whatever u are supremely devoted to is your religion, and whatever u hold of supreme value is your god. nobody ever said religion is 100% supernatural.

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: the link u provided.. basically, it is a good passage nuetrally speaking. though, his accounts were written by eye-witnesses of his life. he was put on trial before pilate, which is in roman records. historically accurate, he did exist, he even went before herod, the king of judah. roman accounts describe an earthquake, the jewish temple being destroyed and the alter of sacrifice being split right in half. there are secular records of this. jerusalem was turned upside looking for jesus's body when the roman soldiers gaurding it abandoned it out fear from the sight of an angel. they were looking for the body. this is all historical evidence. over 500 people saw jesus after he had died and risen. he stayed for 40 more days before he ascended to heaven. eye-witness accounts of this exist. i still hold true to my premise that atheism isnt possible. i looked up the definition of god in the dictionary and one of them is.. 3 : a person or thing of supreme value whatever u hold of supreme value is your god.

Jesus didn't rise from the dead!

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Jesus didn't rise from the dead!

plus, if we're all God's children - what's so special about jesus

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Jesus didn't rise from the dead!

oh, he didnt?? where are his remains? why were there more than 500 eye-witnesses who saw him. the accounts of his life were written by eye-witnesses, and there were 4 accounts of his life, each written with a different aspect in mind. the romans have account of that gaurds were posted at his tomb to ward off the possibility of his followers taking his body and claiming he rose from the dead. but the gaurds abandoned the tomb because something scared them so much, that they just ran. the huge door to the tomb was rolled open, and no body was found. he appeared to more than 500 people. not just a few. and it was he himself, in the flesh, because thomas actually touched his wounds because he was skeptical himself. he even ate with his disciples. jesus did certainy rise from the dead.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy plus, if we're all God's children - what's so special about jesus

we are not all god's children. jesus is part of the trinity. the father sent the son to the earth for the supreme sacrifice to save the world from the justice it deserved and deserves to this day. and justice is prophesied to come. there are dozens of prophecies out of the bible that have been written hundreds of years before they were fulfilled, and there are yet more that have yet to be fulfilled.

Ok well lets go a bit further on the issue of atheism..again oxford english dictionary

Atheism. the theory or belief that god does not exist

simple as that thats all it says..so if i have the theory or belief that god does not exist than i am an atheist

quote:

Originally posted by zig Ok well lets go a bit further on the issue of atheism..again oxford english dictionary Atheism. the theory or belief that god does not exist simple as that thats all it says..so if i have the theory or belief that god does not exist than i am an atheist

define god for me. do u mean a diety? krishna? jesus? allah? what or who do u not believe. like i said, whatever u hold at supreme value is your god and religion, doesnt matter what is. go to the oxford dictionary and find the difinition of god and religion, and dont filter out any of the definitions u dont like. they are there for a reason, and hold true.

ok it would take me about half an hour to quote in full from the dictionary but the part that applies to me is

2.(GOD) (in christian and other montheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe;the supreme being

it dosnt mention that i do have to believe..so if i dont believe i still maintain that i am an atheist

quote:

Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: oh, he didnt?? where are his remains? why were there more than 500 eye-witnesses who saw him. the accounts of his life were written by eye-witnesses, and there were 4 accounts of his life, each written with a different aspect in mind. the romans have account of that gaurds were posted at his tomb to ward off the possibility of his followers taking his body and claiming he rose from the dead. but the gaurds abandoned the tomb because something scared them so much, that they just ran. the huge door to the tomb was rolled open, and no body was found. he appeared to more than 500 people. not just a few. and it was he himself, in the flesh, because thomas actually touched his wounds because he was skeptical himself. he even ate with his disciples. jesus did certainy rise from the dead.

Ok, first of all, and perhaps most importantly of all, Jesus did not rise from the dead because people do not rise from the dead, it is not physically possible.

Secondly, to say the accounts of his life were written by "eye-witnesses" is laughable. They weren't. They were written years and years after Jesus died. There are no "eye-witness" accounts, just legends and myths passed down the generations by word of mouth.

Thirdly, I am led to believe there is evidence in the Bible that it could have been possible for Jesus to faje his crucifiction as it happened in Joseph's private garden while the crowd were far away.

quote:

Originally posted by zig ok it would take me about half an hour to quote in full from the dictionary but the part that applies to me is 2.(GOD) (in christian and other montheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe;the supreme being it dosnt mention that i do have to believe..so if i dont believe i still maintain that i am an atheist

Honestly mate! Leave the definitions alone it will all end in tears!

I agree with you about the definitions you just get bogged down..at the same time i still maintain that i or anyone else can be an atheist as regard religion god or whatever

quote:

Originally posted by zig ok it would take me about half an hour to quote in full from the dictionary but the part that applies to me is 2.(GOD) (in christian and other montheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe;the supreme being it dosnt mention that i do have to believe..so if i dont believe i still maintain that i am an atheist

u still dont get it. below are definitions for god, religion, and belief. im taking 3 certain definitions out of the three words.

god 3 : a person or thing of supreme value

religon 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

belief 1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

u believe in science. your religion is science. and your god is science. look at these definitions. put it together. science is a thing. its a system of beliefs. your faith is in science. your trust and confidence is in science.

ill say again. your belief, is your religion, and your religion is that of your god. your belief in science, is your religion, and science is your god. there is no such thing as an atheist.
------------------------

Main Entry: 1god
Pronunciation: 'g�d also 'god
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3 : a person or thing of supreme value
4 : a powerful ruler

Main Entry: re�li�gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Main Entry: be�lief
Pronunciation: b&-'lEf
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English beleave, probably alteration of Old English gelEafa, from ge-, associative prefix + lEafa; akin to Old English lyfan
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

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Posted by zig on Dec-29-2004 01:05:

Dont think u get it

Oxford English Dictionary

Atheism.the theory or belief that god does not exist

i dont believe in the theory or belief that god exists therefore i am an atheist

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Posted by Krypton on Dec-29-2004 01:09:

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Ok, first of all, and perhaps most importantly of all, Jesus did not rise from the dead because people do not rise from the dead, it is not physically possible. Secondly, to say the accounts of his life were written by "eye-witnesses" is laughable. They weren't. They were written years and years after Jesus died. There are no "eye-witness" accounts, just legends and myths passed down the generations by word of mouth. Thirdly, I am led to believe there is evidence in the Bible that it could have been possible for Jesus to fake his crucifiction as it happened in Joseph's private garden while the crowd were far away.

whoever said jesus was the average man. are u saying god doesnt have the power to raise people from the dead?? jesus is god himself, how could death defeat god?? it is physically possbile because there are many accounts of people rising from the dead. even today, people are rising from the dead.

tell me how the accounts werent written by eye-witnesses? they were written by matthew, mark, luke, and john. and corroborated by numourous other documents and books. luke was not an eye-witness, but if u read the first chapter, his goal was to interview all the eye-witnesses and make the best account possible. luke was very educated, and his book is the offspring of his investigation into jesus's life. mathew, mark, and john all spent 3 years with jesus and saw everything that went on. all their accounts were written within 40 years of jesus's death and resurrection. what would be the purpose to write their books immediatly after jesus died and rose?? the story wasnt over yet. there was time needed to gather all this that had gone and to finally write a book about it.

quote:

Thirdly, I am led to believe there is evidence in the Bible that it could have been possible for Jesus to fake his crucifiction as it happened in Joseph's private garden while the crowd were far away.

where is this in the bible. show it to me?? so, the trial in the synagogue, the trial before pilate, the physical torture the roman put him in, the whipping, the flogging, the spitting, the beating, his summoning before herod, and his final judgement from pilate are all false?? the romans and jews just staged a play and faked it all?? there is no more heard of joseph after the story of jesus teaching in the synagogue when he was 12. so by the time jesus was 33, its thought that he was probably dead, or not around.

your arguements have no basis behind them.

quote:

I agree with you about the definitions you just get bogged down..at the same time i still maintain that i or anyone else can be an atheist as regard religion god or whatever

so, clarification, even though it proves u wrong, is bogging everybody down?? your arguement as well is just stated opinion with no basis. the reason im putting up definitions is to bring facts into this arugement. the dictionary is factual. you have put up nothing but stated opinions. ive proved my point. prove yours.

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Posted by Sevas Stra on Dec-29-2004 01:09:

That is trully a pointless reply...

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Posted by kaffeemeister on Dec-29-2004 01:17:

Seriously TranceVanDyk, you cannot cross examine someone's thoughts and mind on the internet just through a process where you have vaguely understood the person and strongly claims that he is not an athesist. An athesist is a person that does no believe in God itself, or the person might not be that cultivated in philosophical thoughts, and believe there 'might' be one, but not the ones represented in popular culture (Allah, God) etc.; those people are deists...

So you are saying

Belief => Religion
Religion => God

thus

science isa belief
however; as a normal 'atheist'; he cultivate his thoughts on that there is no God, what he sees what he can touch, and is "real" in this world is his believes. He knows if he jumps off a 10 storey building that that Laws of Physics would certainly kill the poor buggar, that's where his beliefs are.

Some of the definitions you put down there are kinda FUBAR, they use the similar words in the definition itself; for example, in the definition 'religion'.

As i said, are those definition 'for all' or just loose definitions? If they are loose definitions, then you can "loosely" imply that
Belief => Religion
Religion => God
However, that use it completely to define a character, that he has a God, and he is the God of Science :|...

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Posted by zig on Dec-29-2004 01:18:

You havnt proven your point you keep giving definitions for 1.God 2.Religion 3.Belief

Now go to the oxford english and get a definition for atheism ive quoted it twice allready its very short and simple.

The reason i get down bogged down with handling script or passages of it is 1.i cant type very fast 2.my html skills are pretty bad ..i dont get bogged down in making the point that i or anyone else can consider themself an atheist

Look up the definition of the word and post that word for word

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Posted by Krypton on Dec-29-2004 01:23:

quote:

Originally posted by zig Dont think u get it Oxford English Dictionary Atheism.the theory or belief that god does not exist i dont believe in the theory or belief that god exists therefore i am an atheist

can u show me the oxford english dictionary. i tried to find it but couldnt find the place to look up words. definition 2, clauses A and B states 2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

doesnt say god. nobody ever god has to be a diety. i can call tiesto or paul van dyk god if i want, but they are not supernatural dieties. so, to say u dont believe in god, is to say u dont believe in anything, science, religion(any), you just sit there with no opinions, no belief system.

Main Entry: athe�ism
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French ath�isme, from ath�e atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

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Posted by zig on Dec-29-2004 01:33:

Ill post you the book its quite large though..

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Posted by Krypton on Dec-29-2004 01:35:

quote:

Originally posted by kaffeemeister Seriously TranceVanDyk, you cannot cross examine someone's thoughts and mind on the internet just through a process where you have vaguely understood the person and strongly claims that he is not an athesist. An athesist is a person that does no believe in God itself, or the person might not be that cultivated in philosophical thoughts, and believe there 'might' be one, but not the ones represented in popular culture (Allah, God) etc.; those people are deists... So you are saying Belief => Religion Religion => God thus science isa belief however; as a normal 'atheist'; he cultivate his thoughts on that there is no God, what he sees what he can touch, and is "real" in this world is his believes. He knows if he jumps off a 10 storey building that that Laws of Physics would certainly kill the poor buggar, that's where his beliefs are. Some of the definitions you put down there are kinda FUBAR, they use the similar words in the definition itself; for example, in the definition 'religion'. As i said, are those definition 'for all' or just loose definitions? If they are loose definitions, then you can "loosely" imply that Belief => Religion Religion => God However, that use it completely to define a character, that he has a God, and he is the God of Science :|...

ive gotten the definition of atheist, and have found that it is the disbelief of a diety. but god, the term "god" doesnt have to be a diety. it can be whatever u hold true and dear to you. it could be armin van buuren for all i care. what would u call someones beliefs? what would u call someone's supreme values? is music the focus of their life? if music is the focus of ones like, what is that music then to that person?

logically speaking, religion is a set of beliefs. doesnt matter if its super-natural or scientific. everybody has a religion. god is whatever u hold at supreme value, music, sports, or a diety. everybody has a god, because everybody has something they hold to the highest importance over everything else. that's why i say, there is no such thing as atheism. u think of god as a diety, but the term god is not relegated as a diety, god can be anything to a person.

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Posted by Krypton on Dec-29-2004 01:38:

quote:

Originally posted by zig Ill post you the book its quite large though..

the book? what about an online dictionary. something i can research myself?? im using the merriam webster online dictionary. i aways double check people definitions to see if they are factual, not the person's personal definition of a word.

i put special emphasis on these definitions because first, we have to know, really what the terms "god", "religion", "beliefs", and "atheism" really mean. not what we think they mean. this must be clarified first before we move onto anything, because we have to know what we are talking about first.

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