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-- Germans are "speaking out" about WWII
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Originally posted by h@x0r What is it about our northen neighbors that so many folks have a severe brain frostbite??? I'm sorry - all this nonsene about following orders. I'd say that those who were just following orders constituted less than 10% of the total force. This also included the cowards who believed in cause but didn't want to die for it and surrendered to the allies whinnying "We follow orders! we don't want to kill!" ... The rest were ready to die for what they believed in - Arian nation. Sure, just like in any army - you have "soft hearted" soldiers or those who don't share the ideology. However, I find it hard to justify the execution of women and children as "those were my orders". personally, faced with a choice - I'd rather shoot my commanding officer and take my chances with the consequences than kill innocent beings. But that's just me... Of course, history also tells us of legions of Ukrainian soldiers who joined German forces to fight the "Bolsheviks" and "Kikes"... Those were probably not subject or too opposed to german orders, being volunteers and all... Ooops, sorry - breached a sensitive subject here.

Provide the sorces that say over 90% of the German army were fighting for the Arian Nation please (thats the CONSCRIPTED German soldiers by the way)

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Originally posted by George Smiley Originally posted by h@x0r What is it about our northen neighbors that so many folks have a severe brain frostbite??? I'm sorry - all this nonsene about following orders. I'd say that those who were just following orders constituted less than 10% of the total force. This also included the cowards who believed in cause but didn't want to die for it and surrendered to the allies whinnying "We follow orders! we don't want to kill!" ... The rest were ready to die for what they believed in - Arian nation. Sure, just like in any army - you have "soft hearted" soldiers or those who don't share the ideology. However, I find it hard to justify the execution of women and children as "those were my orders". personally, faced with a choice - I'd rather shoot my commanding officer and take my chances with the consequences than kill innocent beings. But that's just me... Of course, history also tells us of legions of Ukrainian soldiers who joined German forces to fight the "Bolsheviks" and "Kikes"... Those were probably not subject or too opposed to german orders, being volunteers and all... Ooops, sorry - breached a sensitive subject here.

are u an idiot?? it is true, that in the beginning of the war, the drug of victory and of the fuhrer bringing victory upon the soldiers did intoxicate the soldiers. many might have been fighting for the fuhrer in the beginning. but, 1941 onwards, the vast majority of soldiers fought for each other and for their country, and no longer for the fuhrer. the SS Einsatzgruppen were the ones carrying out aryan purification of europe. not the wehrmacht or waffen SS.

there was one division of ukrainian soldiers fighting for the germans. about several thousand is my estimate. they tried to surrender to the americans in czechoslavakia at the end of the war, but the americans turned them away because of a previous agreement of returning all russian prisoners back to russia. pity to what happened to them when they got back to stalin

Right, come on, get my name of that quote if ur gonna thrown words like "idiot" around after it!!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Right, come on, get my name of that quote if ur gonna thrown words like "idiot" around after it!!

oops

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Originally posted by h@x0r What is it about our northen neighbors that so many folks have a Nosevere brain frostbite??? I'm sorry - all this nonsene about following orders. I'd say that those who were just following orders constituted less than 10% of the total force. This also included the cowards who believed in cause but didn't want to die for it and surrendered to the allies whinnying "We follow orders! we don't want to kill!" ... The rest were ready to die for what they believed in - Arian nation. Sure, just like in any army - you have "soft hearted" soldiers or those who don't share the ideology. However, I find it hard to justify the execution of women and children as "those were my orders". personally, faced with a choice - I'd rather shoot my commanding officer and take my chances with the consequences than kill innocent beings. But that's just me... Of course, history also tells us of legions of Ukrainian soldiers who joined German forces to fight the "Bolsheviks" and "Kikes"... Those were probably not subject or too opposed to german orders, being volunteers and all... Ooops, sorry - breached a sensitive subject here.

Northern neighbours....severe brain frostbite.....interesting...

On battlefields soldiers fight for their lives. There's no remorse by one side or the other about casualties because the combatants are merely fighting for their lives. Luckier, or more skillful, or maybe better led soldiers survive. They were thrust in harm's way by powers higher than them and only worried about survival when faced with an enemy trying to kill them. The emerging stories shed a better light on things and I think that gives us a better understanding down at the soldier level of what actually happened when the waring masses collided.


[[[smoke]]]

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What is it about our northen neighbors that so many folks have a Nosevere brain frostbite??? I'm sorry - all this nonsene about following orders. I'd say that those who were just following orders constituted less than 10% of the total force. This also included the cowards who believed in cause but didn't want to die for it and surrendered to the allies whinnying "We follow orders! we don't want to kill!" ... The rest were ready to die for what they believed in - Arian nation. Sure, just like in any army - you have "soft hearted" soldiers or those who don't share the ideology. However, I find it hard to justify the execution of women and children as "those were my orders". personally, faced with a choice - I'd rather shoot my commanding officer and take my chances with the consequences than kill innocent beings. But that's just me... Of course, history also tells us of legions of Ukrainian soldiers who joined German forces to fight the "Bolsheviks" and "Kikes"... Those were probably not subject or too opposed to german orders, being volunteers and all... Ooops, sorry - breached a sensitive subject here.

First of all, the motivation behind a soldier following orders is irrelevant.

Second of all, the Ukrainian nationalists fought against Stalin's tyranny to gain independence for Ukraine from Soviet rule.

Third of all, are you jewish?

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Originally posted by zig Northern neighbours....severe brain frostbite.....interesting...

he's obviously not taking into account hats.

hey h@@xor, not every german was wanting the extermination of jews (and i'm wearing earmuffs). next time you want to say that soldiers were fighting for an arian nation, translate that into the 21st century's usage of "freedom". you don't hate freedom, do you?

[upon review, i hereby realize the flame potential from the coulter fans in the audience.. but i don't give a shit, it's the friggin truth]

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Originally posted by Cal Here's something from the Forrest Gump script A DRILL SERGEANT is in Forrest's face as Forrest stands in line with the other recruits. DRILL SERGEANT Gump! What's your sole purpose in this Army? FORREST To do whatever you tell me, Drill Sergeant! DRILL SERGEANT Godamnit, Gump! You're a goddamned genius! That's the most outstanding answer I've ever heard. You must have a godamned I.Q. of a hundred and sixty! You are godamned gifted, Private Gump! Just think about that for a minute

It is fine to apply this to soldiers who are already in the army, but soldiers who join the army during a war time are fighting for something, not just taking orders. Look at the influx of soldiers after Pearl Harbor bombing in the US, they wanted to fight the japs that did that to our country and wanted to kill the "krauts" in germany (and this was before anyone even knew of the holocaust). The same is true with Germany, their standing army before world war II was much smaller then they suddenly had millions and millions of troops willing to take over the world.

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: are u an idiot?? it is true, that in the beginning of the war, the drug of victory and of the fuhrer bringing victory upon the soldiers did intoxicate the soldiers. many might have been fighting for the fuhrer in the beginning. but, 1941 onwards, the vast majority of soldiers fought for each other and for their country, and no longer for the fuhrer. the SS Einsatzgruppen were the ones carrying out aryan purification of europe. not the wehrmacht or waffen SS.

You can make the claim about the Army soldiers following orders but remember most regular army personnel did not participate in the "final solution" they were simply fighting on the front lines. It was the SS and Reserve Police Battalions who guarded the trains and rounded up the jews. A very interesting book on the subject is
Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland which attempts to explain how average people (this is the reserve we are talking about) can be turn into heartless killers of innocents. Another very interesting book is On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society which discusses killing is not specific to the Holocaust or WW2.

Also, as with nearly any war where the soldiers do not particularly believe in the cause, they quickly begin fighting for not only themselves but also their friends.

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Originally posted by auujay You can make the claim about the Army soldiers following orders but remember most regular army personnel did not participate in the "final solution" they were simply fighting on the front lines. It was the SS and Reserve Police Battalions who guarded the trains and rounded up the jews. A very interesting book on the subject is Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland which attempts to explain how average people (this is the reserve we are talking about) can be turn into heartless killers of innocents. Another very interesting book is On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society which discusses killing is not specific to the Holocaust or WW2. Also, as with nearly any war where the soldiers do not particularly believe in the cause, they quickly begin fighting for not only themselves but also their friends.

good point made. but, regarding the SS. many veterans from the waffen-SS have tried, usually to no avail to separate themselves from the einsatzgruppen and police battalions of the SS because the Waffen SS were combat soldiers, fighting just like a soldier. sure there were atrocities committed, but all sides committed them, its just the waffen-ss have been singled out 1. because they lost the war, 2. because the SS organization ran the concentration camps. 3. because the waffen-ss were usually the most feared and fierce soldiers to fight.

i get hooked on stories of allied soldiers describing the anxious bahavior of their comrades when they knew they would be going up against an SS unit.

Saying the germans are all evil nazis is plain stupid. What happend in Germany during the 30's and 40's could happen anywhere under the right (or wrong) circumstances. People are basically the same anywhere on this planet.

Most of us here lives in a safe enviroment and we can't even begin to understand what hell World War II was like. When you're on the battlefield, all you do is fighting for your life and the lives of your friends.

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil It is fine to apply this to soldiers who are already in the army, but soldiers who join the army during a war time are fighting for something, not just taking orders. Look at the influx of soldiers after Pearl Harbor bombing in the US, they wanted to fight the japs that did that to our country and wanted to kill the "krauts" in germany (and this was before anyone even knew of the holocaust). The same is true with Germany, their standing army before world war II was much smaller then they suddenly had millions and millions of troops willing to take over the world.

Well I know where my nomination for "dumb fucking post of the day" is going...

Re. the German army being smaller before WW2...

One, have you heard of the Treaty of Versailles?, two, conscription tends to make your army slightly bigger than it was before THATS THE WHOLE POINT!!!

Jesus Fucking Christ sometimes people on this forum make me wanna SCREAM!!!!

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It is fine to apply this to soldiers who are already in the army, but soldiers who join the army during a war time are fighting for something, not just taking orders. Look at the influx of soldiers after Pearl Harbor bombing in the US, they wanted to fight the japs that did that to our country and wanted to kill the "krauts" in germany (and this was before anyone even knew of the holocaust). The same is true with Germany, their standing army before world war II was much smaller then they suddenly had millions and millions of troops willing to take over the world.

there is a reason for joining the war, and there is a reason why u stay fighting on the frontlines even though 99% of your mind and body is telling u to run, and run, far far away. but u usually dont, and the reason for that? its not patriotism, or the "cause for which we fight". its for your own survival, to avoid dishonor by staying with your comrades so that you all may survive.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well I know where my nomination for "dumb fucking post of the day" is going... Re. the German army being smaller before WW2... One, have you heard of the Treaty of Versailles?, two, conscription tends to make your army slightly bigger than it was before THATS THE WHOLE POINT!!! Jesus Fucking Christ sometimes people on this forum make me wanna SCREAM!!!!

Did you wake up with a hangover by any chance.....LOL..

Well, my jew friends always come up to me and tell me that they rule the world ( or thats their puerpose ) .. hope that's only their immature point of view, but if thats what majority thinks, then there's a reason why there's so much hatred tours no?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well I know where my nomination for "dumb fucking post of the day" is going... Re. the German army being smaller before WW2... One, have you heard of the Treaty of Versailles?, two, conscription tends to make your army slightly bigger than it was before THATS THE WHOLE POINT!!! Jesus Fucking Christ sometimes people on this forum make me wanna SCREAM!!!!

I aim to please, Your arrogance has the exact same effect to me.

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil I aim to please, Your arrogance has the exact same effect to me.

Whats worse? Arrogance or ignorance? Can arrogance be excused in the face of ignornace?

It is only ignorant not understanding the context of a comment and passing it off as "a dumb fucking post". Get over yourself for once.

It is obvious we both dislike each other so I will leave it at that. Continue to berate if you wish, it is up to you.

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil It is only ignorant not understanding the context of a comment and passing it off as "a dumb fucking post". Get over yourself for once. It is obvious we both dislike each other so I will leave it at that. Continue to berate if you wish, it is up to you.

I have nothing against you! It's just that that particular post was dumb!

Anyway, being right all the time is different from being arrogant...

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Originally posted by Cal If you're in the army you do what your superior officer tells you to, it's a simple as that. That's the corner stone that allows the army as a whole to exist. So stop hassling the germans, they are the same as any other country's soldiers in WW2. They followed their orders. If you want to blame someone, blame Hitler, but the soldiers should be honoured for doing their duty.

Seems like you don't know much about how the German occupation was. Read some historical books, ask the living witnesses and you'll find out that the German soldiers wasn't just doing their orders. It was not the regular front army but the police forces that slaughtered the Warsaw Arise in 1944, killed hundreds of thousands of citizens and turned the whole city into ruins.

I recommend you this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...032840?v=glance

see the description below

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: there is a reason for joining the war, and there is a reason why u stay fighting on the frontlines even though 99% of your mind and body is telling u to run, and run, far far away. but u usually dont, and the reason for that? its not patriotism, or the "cause for which we fight". its for your own survival, to avoid dishonor by staying with your comrades so that you all may survive.

Well, yea, but sometimes it's also because you have SS and NKVD operatives behind your back with orders to shoot anyone who tries to retreat

Anyway, about the other stuff mentioned here, the truth is kinda in the middle. Yes, the average german soldier did fight because he was ordered to, he didn't do it because he had a bloodlust for jews, but he also believed in the aryan ideology that was being fed to him. The problem was that the ideology was a wee bit more brutal and agressive than other ones available, so it's kinda reasonable to have less understanding for their actions than for those of other soldiers. But aside from that, it's pretty much how it goes in every war. I think there was a research that showed that about 30% of the soldiers actually like war for the joy of killing, while the rest is pretty much pulled along by that 30%. Blame it on human stupidity and lack of reason and knowledge. It's the same as with americans of whom majority believed that Iraq was connected to 9-11, or with serbs here who thought that croatian independence will result in concentration camps and ethnic cleansing (well, they were kinda right about that to a degree)...

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Originally posted by vmc Seems like you don't know much about how the German occupation was. Read some historical books, ask the living witnesses and you'll find out that the German soldiers wasn't just doing their orders. It was not the regular front army but the police forces that slaughtered the Warsaw Arise in 1944, killed hundreds of thousands of citizens and turned the whole city into ruins. I recommend you this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...032840?v=glance see the description below

If it's SOLDIERS we are talking about why are going off on a tangent with POLICE FORCES

SOLDIERS are not the same as the POLICE are they einstein?

EDIT

You just have to understand one thing about the military. When you join up, you surrender your sense of reason, your morality, your individuality. You become an unthinking tool of your superior officer to wield as he wishes, nothing more, nothing less. In return your commanding officer takes all the moral implications of your actions on his soul FOR THE CONSEQUENCES OF HIS ORDER.

So if a soldier is ordered to execute a prisoner or a million prisoners by his captain, that is acceptable because that is how ANY country's army works and how war is.

But if a soldier of his own free will goes out and shoots up a couple of civilians or prisoners because of some personal views and ideas, he should be court marshalled because he broke the law, so to speak.

The guy in the article manned his post like he was ordered. If you blame him, you blame all other good soldiers on BOTH sides for doing what soldiers are supposed to do.

Cal, you're right, but you didn't understand what my post was about. You see, the soldiers are to obey orders whatever they're like and so on, but the police are just the ordinary members of the German society during that time, right? I was trying to show that there weren't the mythical "nazis" who did all that war crimes, it was most of the German nation in the yearly XX century who followed their leader without any criticism, gave permission to all he was about and take part in commiting his crimes, their crimes. They took advantages of hundreds thousands of force labour working in their factories.

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Originally posted by LiquidX Well, my jew friends always come up to me and tell me that they rule the world ( or thats their puerpose ) .. hope that's only their immature point of view, but if thats what majority thinks, then there's a reason why there's so much hatred tours no?

I think your friends need a swift reality kick to their ass. Neither myself, nor my Jewish friends EVER make comments such as those.

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