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quote:

Originally posted by Shahar Audio editor like 'Wavelab' ?! how can I maximize it there?

if you use wavelab, select whole file (ctrl+a), and press 'y' to analyze the file (maximum level, average level, etc). or 'n' to normalize. do not ever normalize to 0 dB, it is better to normalize to -0.5 dB or some other figure, just not 0.

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Originally posted by thecYrus 1. never use normalize (use compressing and limiting instead) 2. if the master-channel clips you have to lower the single channels until nothing clips anymore! 3. the master channel can go higher than the single channel-levels because sound in the same frequency will be added together. if you have a huge differnece it's most due the lack of bad equalising. just my 2 cents cYrus

1. why not to normalize?
2. is it bad to lower master fader and why? if it is bad, then why is it there in the first place?

quote:

Originally posted by Shahar My compressors\eqs look like this: (first comp\eq go to the first melody channel, second comp\eq go to the second channel)

the settings look pretty much ok. but, there is an issue here - if both these channels play at the same time, there is a problem, because they are both equalised the same. it is never good to play two sounds with similar frequent content in the same time - that's why almost every mixing tutorial gives you advice to eq kicks and drums complementary - boost the low bass on bassline and cut the low bass on the kicks, for example. most probably this boost is making your fader jump too high. and another thing - posting comp settings is completely useless. these setting might work great with some material, and can suck hardly with other input material. it depends on audio you are compressing.

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Originally posted by Shahar when you say 'add limiter or compressor to the master' u mean to the mixer master or to the nn-19 master? btw, every synth im using has a compressor..it's ok?

most probably not. you don't need to compress EVERYTHING, use compression only when needed (for example, the melody is playing, and on some notes it is too loud or too quiet).
it looks like you use compression only because someone said it sounds cool, or it is mentioned as 'the tool professionals do'.
basically, what you are doing here is overcompressing each element of the track, what sucks life out of it. you must have some dynamics left, this is just squashing it down.
so, do the following - first, bypass ALL your compressors, play the main loop of your track, and try setting the level (in the mixer) for each channel so that it sounds good, instead of compressing. after spending some time setting this up, THEN try turning on your compressors, one at the time, and leave only the ones that do good things to your track.
in one of my tracks, i only used compressor on a snare (to add punch), and on a kick-bass group channel (to get that nifty flat bass foundation), and a master limiter - that is on an arrangement with 15 stereo outputs. and it sounds real nice, except on crappy 2x1w pc speakers.
oh, and another thing. if you think your bass, kick, leads, whatever need really heavy processing (eq, compression, distortion), try changing the sounds. you cannot make a pie out of mud.

quote:

Originally posted by h.vox 1. why not to normalize?

Because if you have a peak in a track it will only raise the volumn of the track up to the tracks highest peak volumn ie:




What you want to do is hardlimit or compress it to take those peaks away

Something I agree with Rob.

Infact looking at one of ur channel. The channel is way too high. U might consider to lower even more. Or adjust ur Eq setting of ur gain. U pump up at least to +10dB(I reckon) Try minmize everything on ur volunme channel. I reckon that this is ur starting doing of song, right? Adjust the level now. Whenever you layer more tune, the sound will be cover more and more. From there, U do ur mixdown again. Just make sure you dun go beyond 0dB on ur master dB. U can try normalise it provided you do have alot of peaks. Try Rob way. Just finish the song. For me, I will try to do compressor to reduce the peak and also for other reason.

Good luck mate!

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Originally posted by Rob Because if you have a peak in a track it will only raise the volumn of the track up to the tracks highest peak volumn ie:

i get the point, but i never had any problems with peaks like that. if mix is done properly, those peaks will not occur.

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Originally posted by Rob That's why you need a compressor on the master and possibly even on the lead. Why do you need to compress a lead? Well trance is definitly not a genre where the lead has alot of dynamic range, so you'll want to decrease that dynamic range and most importantly stop it from any having abrupt spikes or peaks(especially the case when you layer lots of leads together to make 1 phat lead). Anyway, back to your problem. Try and set this up(wait a while for it to load as it's animated ): Notice how when I increase the volumn of lead1, the compressor(really a limiter as it's set to the highest ratio) kicks in and compresses the signal source. Result = well set it up yourself and listen to what it does.

You don't have any problem with the compressor with it's automatic gain?
For me a normal compressor and a normalize is different then a compressor in reason on the mix which will give some volume dips.
But I haven't tried your setting so you'll hear about that later.

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Originally posted by h.vox 1. why not to normalize? 2. is it bad to lower master fader and why? if it is bad, then why is it there in the first place?

1) It takes it to the level of the highest peak- if you are close to clipping or do actually soft clip, then it will sound shit. Its also another process of signal processing- and each process will add noise and degrade the signal further.

2)Gain structure. And noise.

Your gain sturcture is terrible. You may lower a fader to say -10, but by adding a total +15 of boost you have then pushed it past where it was before, meaning you have to drop it even further. No problem with this on one or two channels in a full mix, but when it is on every channel and you drop the master to compensate, all you have done is increased the noise floor by quite a lot.
Cutting the remaining frequency band has the same effect as boosting the one band.

I cant help with any diagrams- i work with analog sound in real studios, not virtual studios, so no screen grabs to show you but the principals are exacty the same. In fact they are more critical in digtal/virtual studios due to the nature of digital clipping and headroom and the lack of soft headroom you get on an analogue set up.

the whole point of good gain structure is to reduce any potential undue increase in the noise floor in the signal at every stage of the chain.

ghetto diagram:

!
. is the signal out of one piece of equipment, where '!' is the music, and '.' is the signal noise

it then goes into the desk where you boost it in eq and gain and it then looks like this:

!
!
.
. Not only have you increased the signal level, you have also

increased the noise level as it is part of the signal. Now imagine this happens with every input and gain stage you go through- think how much noise vs signal is present at the end.
And then, when you drop the master, you are decreasing the signal/noise level even further

like i say, ghetto digram (not accurate by any means) but hopefully my point is made


If you fancy googling it its called 'unity gain' or 'gain structure'

quote:

Originally posted by Freak 1) It takes it to the level of the highest peak- if you are close to clipping or do actually soft clip, then it will sound shit. Its also another process of signal processing- and each process will add noise and degrade the signal further.

it will sound shit because you changed gain? that's crap. it will sound quiet, maybe. but not shit. then again, RMS-based normalizing will get rid of those peaks. btw i once made an analysis of the noise it adds to the process - the noise it adds (if it adds it at all) is about -100 dB, which is far below audible. and that's in digital world. in analogue, that is just riding the master fader of your desk.

quote:

2)Gain structure. And noise. Your gain sturcture is terrible. You may lower a fader to say -10, but by adding a total +15 of boost you have then pushed it past where it was before, meaning you have to drop it even further. No problem with this on one or two channels in a full mix, but when it is on every channel and you drop the master to compensate, all you have done is increased the noise floor by quite a lot.

so? when lowering the channels volume you lower the noise floor, but by raising the master fader you still raise the level of mixed noise from all channels. basically the same thing, the only difference is that you do not get noise from master fader. in a good quality desk, this master should not be too much anyway, right? btw, what we are talking about here is reason, not an analogue mixing desk, which is somehow being forgotten. anyway, you must do SOMETHING to prevent the sound from clipping, right?

quote:

Cutting the remaining frequency band has the same effect as boosting the one band.

pretty much, yes, when you compare those two after getting the same rms levels. but what happens to noise in that case? anyway, you must agree that equalizing is a must-have process in getting a good mix, at least one eq is always needed. personally, i would rather use 5-6 eqs (or how many is needed) to balance the elements and introdude eq noise than making a mix without them.

quote:

I cant help with any diagrams- i work with analog sound in real studios, not virtual studios, so no screen grabs to show you but the principals are exacty the same. In fact they are more critical in digtal/virtual studios due to the nature of digital clipping and headroom and the lack of soft headroom you get on an analogue set up.

that headroom is exactly the reason he is being advised to lower the master fader. i do not think he likes the sound of digital clipping.

quote:

the whole point of good gain structure is to reduce any potential undue increase in the noise floor in the signal at every stage of the chain. If you fancy googling it its called 'unity gain' or 'gain structure'

i just as well might do that, since that is one area of my interest. thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by h.vox that headroom is exactly the reason he is being advised to lower the master fader. i do not think he likes the sound of digital clipping.

I think your master fader should sit at o db on the mixer. In reason that's al the way up. Then you have to adjust the channel faders to keep from clipping. What do you guys think?
Lowering the masterfader will shorten your dynamic range, the amount of different volumes you can use, or do I miss something here?

quote:

Originally posted by MadThijs I think your master fader should sit at o db on the mixer. In reason that's al the way up. Then you have to adjust the channel faders to keep from clipping. What do you guys think?

maybe on an analogue desk. in reason, it does not really matter much.
of course it should be at around 0 dB, but if it is not, that's the least of your problems. in cubase, you can boost master + 6dB.

quote:

Lowering the masterfader will shorten your dynamic range, the amount of different volumes you can use, or do I miss something here?

master fader is not a compressor you know. if you lower the fader, you will basically lower your volume, with noise level remaining the same. this might lower your dinamic range by a bit, but that is not nearly as serious as you think it is.
but, internal mixers in reason, cubase and fruity do not introduce any noise of their own (except quantisation noise) so this is out of the question. the only noise you have there is from your samples, not from the mixer. if host works internally at 24 or 32 bit, and you render your output to 16bit, even quantisation noise dissapears.

quote:

Originally posted by MadThijs You don't have any problem with the compressor with it's automatic gain? For me a normal compressor and a normalize is different then a compressor in reason on the mix which will give some volume dips. But I haven't tried your setting so you'll hear about that later.

Nope. But then again, you don't compress the whole mix like that at once.

You compress your percussion like that. Then your leads + vocals, which to me also includes the upper freqeuncies of the bassline. When I have the bassline playing alone and I bring in a lead, the bassline will fade into the background from the compressor. Again, it's not entirelly evident and often goes unoticed, but more a subtle effect that you can't really do without. Same goes with the vocals. Once the vocals are brought in, the leads are compressed, giving the vocals lots of space to sit in the mix. Take the vocals out and the leads are full again.

quote:

Originally posted by MadThijs Lowering the masterfader will shorten your dynamic range, the amount of different volumes you can use, or do I miss something here?

Dynamic range only refers to the peak to average ratio of a track. The only way you can shorten the dymamic range of a complete track is to use compression and/or limiting. By lowering the masterfader all you're doing is decreasing the volumne. The dynamic range will still be exactly the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob That's why you need a compressor on the master and possibly even on the lead. Why do you need to compress a lead? Well trance is definitly not a genre where the lead has alot of dynamic range, so you'll want to decrease that dynamic range and most importantly stop it from any having abrupt spikes or peaks(especially the case when you layer lots of leads together to make 1 phat lead). Anyway, back to your problem. Try and set this up(wait a while for it to load as it's animated ): Notice how when I increase the volumn of lead1, the compressor(really a limiter as it's set to the highest ratio) kicks in and compresses the signal source. Result = well set it up yourself and listen to what it does.

Ok I've tried it but It doesnt looks like yours, my compressor is +24DB and I dunno why...I set it up like yours. yours is 0db and mine is 24db...
look:


btw, can someone explain me what is the masterfader? it's the NN-19 master or the Mixer1 maser?

quote:

Originally posted by h.vox If host works internally at 24 or 32 bit, and you render your output to 16bit, even quantisation noise dissapears.

I beg your pardon?

Reducing bitdepth will induce quantisation noise. That's what's dithering is for, to mask the problem.

Ok not I noticed that when my track is play, the compressor stands on 0db...its ok?!

but the fader on the mixer still too low...I cant take it up coz it will clip.

Edit:
I think the only way to fix the problem is to disable my current eq and to low the bass \ treble of the melody channel..but these things make my melody alive so I must remove them.....?

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Thy I beg your pardon? Reducing bitdepth will induce quantisation noise. That's what's dithering is for, to mask the problem.

you are right. however, i am not talking about that. my point is - you want to mix six 16bit audio tracks. the levels vary, so additional quantization noise is introduced. if you mix internally in 24 bit, and render the output in 16bit, the noise introduced in mixing stage will be audible in 23rd or maybe 22nd bit, but those bits are cut off when rendering to 16 bit. i hope this is clear now. and, of course, that is why the dithering noise is being introduced in the mastering stage.

quote:

Originally posted by Shahar Ok not I noticed that when my track is play, the compressor stands on 0db...its ok?!

level or gain reduction? if gain reduction stands on 0 dB then compressor aint working. if it's the level, then, it should be ok, since reason compressor has automatic gain.

quote:

but the fader on the mixer still too low...I cant take it up coz it will clip.

try not to look at the fader. if you burn your music on the cd, do you think anyone will think about position of master fader? it should not clip, think about that only. render your file to 24bit, limit/normalize/compress your track, and then render to 16bit. if it is nearly as loud as commercial tracks, you are on the right way.

quote:

Edit: I think the only way to fix the problem is to disable my current eq and to low the bass \ treble of the melody channel..but these things make my melody alive so I must remove them.....?

remove all bass below 60-70 Hz, that might help.

quote:

Originally posted by h.vox if gain reduction stands on 0 dB then compressor is not working. try not to look at the fader. if you burn your music on the cd, do you think anyone will think about position of master fader? it should not clip, think about that only. render your file to 24bit, limit/normalize/compress your track, and then render to 16bit. if it is nearly as loud as commercial tracks, you are on the right way. remove all bass below 60-70 Hz on the melody, that might help.

quote:

Originally posted by Shahar Ok not I noticed that when my track is play, the compressor stands on 0db...its ok?!

Is that compressor routed to the lead synth channel? You probably should set the threshold somewhat lower than that.. Maybe around -5dB, or -10dB - depends on how the sound is really. Set the compressorlevel to the point where the sound is compressed thoroughly. Add a little gain to compansate the loss of volume.

quote:

Originally posted by Shahar but the fader on the mixer still too low...I cant take it up coz it will clip.

As said earlier, you must add a comp to the masterchannel of your mixer, or a limiter. This will fix the problem with clipping.

quote:

Originally posted by Shahar Edit: I think the only way to fix the problem is to disable my current eq and to low the bass \ treble of the melody channel..but these things make my melody alive so I must remove them.....?

You don't need to do that. Just make sure everything sounds ok in terms of eq, volume, the sounds fitting the mix properly. I use a limiter, then I normalize it in a waveeditor, and then I apply the mastering to it. Hardlimiting the track, so I get the maximum level out of the track without it clipping.

quote:

Originally posted by h.vox level or gain reduction? if gain reduction stands on 0 dB then compressor aint working. if it's the level, then, it should be ok, since reason compressor has automatic gain. try not to look at the fader. if you burn your music on the cd, do you think anyone will think about position of master fader? it should not clip, think about that only. render your file to 24bit, limit/normalize/compress your track, and then render to 16bit. if it is nearly as loud as commercial tracks, you are on the right way.

about your 1st question - gain reduction stands on 0db..

how can I 'render the file to 24bit' ?

quote:

Originally posted by Beijer As said earlier, you must add a comp to the masterchannel of your mixer, or a limiter. This will fix the problem with clipping.

how can I link a comp to the masterchannel of the mixer?

This thread pisses me off lol.

Shahar: If you want me to have a look at your track and try and fix something up, PM me and I'll see what I can do. My last post on this thread.

Peace out

quote:

Originally posted by Shahar how can I link a comp to the masterchannel of the mixer?

Like I did in the pic. The top mixer is my Master mixer. The bottom mixers connected to the compressor, and the compressor is then sent to the master mixer.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Like I did in the pic. The top mixer is my Master mixer. The bottom mixers connected to the compressor, and the compressor is then sent to the master mixer.

I've sent u a pm...

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