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Originally posted by Cal I'm sorry to say that you and few other select people I've met over the course of my life make me feel sad about Hitler failing.

Perhaps you should join a Nazi youth group and try and accomplish what he could not

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Originally posted by Yoepus Contrary to your precieved belief, it was not one man that killed the Jews. No, its not all Hilters fault. And no, its not all the Nazi's fault either. It was a Pan-European, and specifically German fault. I know this is hard for you to understand, but thousands upon thousands, upon thousands of Germans killed millions of Jews. Those rest of the Germansthat didn't actively stood by in support of the genoicide. Reporting Jews where they were spotted in almost all of the cases.

Well, yes, it is true that anti semitism was widely spread throughout the Europe (and partially throughout the US as well). However, it is faulty to say that all the germans either participated in the execution of the jews or quietly stood by. Hitler had many political opponents, especially communists, who wholeheartedly disagreed with his policies. They were, however, either killed or sent to concentration camps together with the jews and slavs.

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This anti-semtism was not Hilter's fault - he did not make it all up - it existed in the people before, and they awoke on it.

I think it's not so much the anti semitism that existed in people as it is inherent desire to feel superior in comparison to every other race. Hitler had to find a scapegoat that was responsible for the bad economic situation in his country, as well as the reason why the superior race was beaten in WW1. He primarily chose jews because they had money.

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So why is it so hard to believe that some people have not forgotten like you have? And do not beleif that one generation can simply wipe its hands clean of the crimes comitted by its fathers? Why is it so hard for you to understand that people who experienced the holocaust are still alive in Israel - they know excatly what the Germans did. I'm talking about the fact that the German's PM's father was probably either an active or passive support of what happened to the Jews. Your talking about on the Israeli sides entire families, with cousins, sibblings, nephews, etc, families of hundreds of which only one or two survived.

Well, yes, but you must realize the nature of that passive support. Germany at the time was not a democracy, you couldn't have just walked out on the street and carry a banner saying "let the jews go free". If you'd do that, you'd be shot. A large part of the population was not really enthusiastic about slaughtering jews, they were simply afraid to protest against it. Besides, Hitler's propaganda claimed the jews were being sent to labor camps, not death camps where they were starved and slaughtered. Average german person really didn't know much about what was happening in those camps.

But ultimately, by that logic, the whole of Africa should hate the US for having black slaves and racial laws back in 1800's and the whole christian world should hate you guys because you killed Jesus 2000 years ago.

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One doesn't forget things such as these quickly. One doesn't forget that the Germans tried to destory the Jewish race from the earth once and from all - and came pretty close.

Yes, well, you shouldn't forget those things happened, but you also shouldn't blame current german population of such acts.

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Originally posted by Flotser why do you put words in my mouth?? i said i hate a race? i said i hate germans? i said anything that sounds like it????. i just explained why what the knesset memners did was not racism.

A fair comeback, I guess I should have maybe it clear that that particular statement was towards the jews that still think the germans still owe them something, but consider this: dictionary.com has one of the definitions of racism as discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race. So, substituting ethnicity in for race in that definition, how is insulting a man only on the basis of him being born to german parents not racism?

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Originally posted by Yoepus Perhaps you should join a Nazi youth group and try and accomplish what he could not

AW rofl stop crying, if you can't piece an arguement together go play in the COR.

And besides, I wouldnt want my descendants to endure the amount of whining that the innocent germans had to deal with for so many years.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, yes, it is true that anti semitism was widely spread throughout the Europe (and partially throughout the US as well). However, it is faulty to say that all the germans either participated in the execution of the jews or quietly stood by.

I never said this. I said a large majority participated or gave their passive/active support to it.

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Hitler had many political opponents, especially communists, who wholeheartedly disagreed with his policies. They were, however, either killed or sent to concentration camps together with the jews and slavs.

This only happend later in Hitler's reign (near when he became Reich), well after Jews were already being attacked in killed in the streets with the tacit consent of the government. Jews were being attacked and discriminated against since the early 30s (like they are now in France but to a larger extend).

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I think it's not so much the anti semitism that existed in people as it is inherent desire to feel superior in comparison to every other race.

You're applying how you would think in such situation instead of trying to understand how people actually felt and acted.

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Hitler had to find a scapegoat that was responsible for the bad economic situation in his country,

Hitler did NOT have to find a scapegoat. He chose to. And the people accepted it.

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as well as the reason why the superior race was beaten in WW1. He primarily chose jews because they had money.

The Catholic church also had money.

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Well, yes, but you must realize the nature of that passive support. Germany at the time was not a democracy, you couldn't have just walked out on the street and carry a banner saying "let the jews go free".[quote] At what point in time are you talking about? Germany was a democracy while anti-semtism was wide-spread although at that time the systematic killing of the death camps did not happen. Many people carried out "let the mentally insane and physically handicap go free" in the streets. They were not shot. [quote] If you'd do that, you'd be shot. A large part of the population was not really enthusiastic about slaughtering jews, they were simply afraid to protest against it.

On what notion/emotion/fact do you base this statement on?

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Besides, Hitler's propaganda claimed the jews were being sent to labor camps, not death camps where they were starved and slaughtered. Average german person really didn't know much about what was happening in those camps.

There has been varrying research into this subject, however the consenus is that people knew something was happening. They weren't dumb. When you have the sheer number of forces involved (over 330,000 named) in the extermination of million, word gets arounds.

Read: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette...uldTheyHav.html
And:
http://humphrys.humanists.net/fasci...anity.holocaust

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But ultimately, by that logic, the whole of Africa should hate the US for having black slaves and racial laws back in 1800's and the whole christian world should hate you guys because you killed Jesus 2000 years ago.

Ok a couple things:
1) What's wrong with hating if you only discriminate and never use violence? Everybody hates someone in this world. I'm sure you have a few people you despise. Some people hate nations - I hate North Korea, yet I don't hate the North Korean people. In the same way I personally hate what Germany has done to the Jews and many millions of others, yet I don't hate Germany or Germans today for this reason. However I do understand why some people still do.

2) First many Africans still have a grude against slavery and despite the fact that it has been abolished for nearly 150 years now in the USA, there are still "racial" programs such as affirmative-action that prompt the inequalities it caused. The difference I see with that and the holocaust is that you are talking about people who have actually survied the holocaust. The State of Israel still has hundred of thousands of people that went through what the German nation put them through. I don't know of any African man in the USA for instance that suffered slavery and is still alive or that his children are alive.

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Yes, well, you shouldn't forget those things happened, but you also shouldn't blame current german population of such acts.

Look I'm not. I never say I hate the Germans (where do you guys get these ideas? Don't believe just because Cal says it its true.... )

All I am saying is what is so hard to understand about this?

You are not talking about something that happned hundreds of years ago. You are talking about something that happened to people that are alive now. You are talking about parliment memebers who are the children of the survivors of the holocaust.

You do not see them attacking Germans you do not see them harrasing German speakers, you do not seem them vandalizing German owned stores or any ounce of violence. They are protesting against what the Germans did and they are doing so without violence.

That's all. I've never heard an ounce of critisim when UN council members get up and leave there seats when the UN-Israeli ambassador is at the podium. SO WHATS THE BIG FRIKIN DEAL WHEN SOME PARLIMENT MEMBERS IN ISRAELS KNESSET REFUSE TO LISTEN TO THE GERMAN CHANCELLOR OUT OF RESPECT FOR THEIR PARENT'S SUFFERING. WHAT'S THE BIG FREAKING DEAL??

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Originally posted by Cal AW rofl stop crying, if you can't piece an arguement together go play in the COR. And besides, I wouldnt want my descendants to endure the amount of whining that the innocent germans had to deal with for so many years.

I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.

But perhaps its time as you say to "piece an argument together" and get past your ad hominems.

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Originally posted by Yoepus This only happend later in Hitler's reign (near when he became Reich), well after Jews were already being attacked in killed in the streets with the tacit consent of the government. Jews were being attacked and discriminated against since the early 30s (like they are now in France but to a larger extend).

I hardly think that a few isolated anti semitic attacks in France can be equated to what went on in early 30s in Europe.

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You're applying how you would think in such situation instead of trying to understand how people actually felt and acted.

Well, I don't know, people usually demand for someone to be blamed when the economy goes bad and rarely accept the fact that it may be their own fault.

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Hitler did NOT have to find a scapegoat. He chose to. And the people accepted it.

Well, he did not have to be a nazi either, nobody forced him to do any of the things he did. But wihtout having a scapegoat like that it would be much more difficult to convert people to his ideas.

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The Catholic church also had money.

Yes but they were much more powerful than jews. You guys were much easier to rob.

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At what point in time are you talking about? Germany was a democracy while anti-semtism was wide-spread although at that time the systematic killing of the death camps did not happen.

I'm talking about the time when Hitler gained absolute power. Before that, although antisemitism was existant, it was not encouraged by the state.

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On what notion/emotion/fact do you base this statement on?

On the fact that Hitler executed every single political opponent he had.

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Ok a couple things: 1) What's wrong with hating if you only discriminate and never use violence? Everybody hates someone in this world. I'm sure you have a few people you despise. Some people hate nations - I hate North Korea, yet I don't hate the North Korean people. In the same way I personally hate what Germany has done to the Jews and many millions of others, yet I don't hate Germany or Germans today for this reason. However I do understand why some people still do.

Well, I agree with the part about your personal opinions, but I don't see how you can rationalize the hatred that some people feel towards modern day Germany. I mean, it's currently one of the most anti-nazi countries in the world. Besides, by hating germans now you become more like what they were 50 years ago.

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2) First many Africans still have a grude against slavery and despite the fact that it has been abolished for nearly 150 years now in the USA, there are still "racial" programs such as affirmative-action that prompt the inequalities it caused. The difference I see with that and the holocaust is that you are talking about people who have actually survied the holocaust. The State of Israel still has hundred of thousands of people that went through what the German nation put them through. I don't know of any African man in the USA for instance that suffered slavery and is still alive or that his children are alive.

Yes, those people have a grudge against slavery, nobody said jews shouldn't have a grudge against the holocaust, but they don't have a grudge against the US in a way that they would walk around the streets and burn US flags.

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Look I'm not. I never say I hate the Germans (where do you guys get these ideas? Don't believe just because Cal says it its true.... )

No, I wasn't talking about you, I was speaking in general terms.

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All I am saying is what is so hard to understand about this?

It's not that hard to understand, I'm not pretending here that I don't understand why those people did that. But it shouldn't be viewed as acceptable simply because it is understandable.

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You are not talking about something that happned hundreds of years ago. You are talking about something that happened to people that are alive now. You are talking about parliment memebers who are the children of the survivors of the holocaust. You do not see them attacking Germans you do not see them harrasing German speakers, you do not seem them vandalizing German owned stores or any ounce of violence. They are protesting against what the Germans did and they are doing so without violence.

All I'm saying is that it's kinda stupid to hold a grudge with modern day Germany because of what happened during nazi dictatorship.

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That's all. I've never heard an ounce of critisim when UN council members get up and leave there seats when the UN-Israeli ambassador is at the podium. SO WHATS THE BIG FRIKIN DEAL WHEN SOME PARLIMENT MEMBERS IN ISRAELS KNESSET REFUSE TO LISTEN TO THE GERMAN CHANCELLOR OUT OF RESPECT FOR THEIR PARENT'S SUFFERING. WHAT'S THE BIG FREAKING DEAL??

It's not a big fucking deal. In fact, if it weren't for all those posts saying that Europe is becoming a big antisemitic nazi fortress led by evil and soon to be muslim France, I wouldn't have posted it at all. It was just to portray that there are people on the other side with exactly the same mindset.

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Originally posted by Yoepus I've never heard an ounce of critisim when UN council members get up and leave there seats when the UN-Israeli ambassador is at the podium. SO WHATS THE BIG FRIKIN DEAL WHEN SOME PARLIMENT MEMBERS IN ISRAELS KNESSET REFUSE TO LISTEN TO THE GERMAN CHANCELLOR OUT OF RESPECT FOR THEIR PARENT'S SUFFERING. WHAT'S THE BIG FREAKING DEAL??

Hah are you for real?

The difference is the UN members are expressing their opposition to the present government tactics of Israel VS the knesset members expressing their opposition to a man who comes from a country that had an oppressive regime that was dismantled over 50 years ago. How the hell does it qualify as being out of respect if the guy had nothing to do with the holocaust? Oh wait, it doesnt, because its actually racist. Youd think jews would be the biggest advocates for eliminating racism, but I guess that only comes second, with the first priority being looking out for number one at all cost, doesnt it?

Those things they say about you people don't seem all that off now, so thanks for the proof.

And by the way, all of my abusive ad hominems that I have ever said in my life are chump change compared to this masterpiece:

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Originally posted by Yoepus I'm talking about the fact that the German's PM's father was probably either an active or passive support of what happened to the Jews.

They need to build you a statue. Fuck I feel dumber after reading that sentence again.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I hardly think that a few isolated anti semitic attacks in France can be equated to what went on in early 30s in Europe.

These attacks are common to what has been done historically. However, as I pointed out they are minor to the extend and scope of antisemtic attakcs back in the 30s.

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Well, I don't know, people usually demand for someone to be blamed when the economy goes bad and rarely accept the fact that it may be their own fault.

Right and we are all trying to exterminate Bill Clinton or George Bush at his kin at this present moment...

Its obvious how Americans during the great depression simply had to persecute ... err.. emmm... hmmm...

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Yes but they were much more powerful than jews. You guys were much easier to rob.

They weren't more "powerful". Don't forget we ruled the world at that time They were simply more popular... hence my position.

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I'm talking about the time when Hitler gained absolute power. Before that, although antisemitism was existant, it was not encouraged by the state.

You didn't take a look at those links did you?
You are misinformed in this regard.

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On the fact that Hitler executed every single political opponent he had.

German Catholics weren't executed. There were many parties that could have done a lot more with their influence to prevent what did happen. Very few tried. Indeed, most actively or passively encouraged it.

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Well, I agree with the part about your personal opinions, but I don't see how you can rationalize the hatred that some people feel towards modern day Germany.

Sure, the decendants are living off the wealth they stole and the crimes they committed against the Jews. Reperations pale in comparision to the profit Germany has encoured at the cost of the Jews and others. Thats not hard to rationalze this hate, what Germans commited 50 years ago still has ramification till this day this should come as no suprise.

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Besides, by hating germans now you become more like what they were 50 years ago.

Its a magnitude of difference, but yes, slightly. I believe this hate agains the German Nation is more akin to how most people that are against gay-marriage or gays feel. They won't go and kill a homosexual or even harass them for it but they still beleive it to be wrong.

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Yes, those people have a grudge against slavery, nobody said jews shouldn't have a grudge against the holocaust, but they don't have a grudge against the US in a way that they would walk around the streets and burn US flags.

No, but I do see people in the USA going around and burning/desecrating the Confederate flag. Guess there goes that argument of yours...

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No, I wasn't talking about you, I was speaking in general terms.

Oh ok, that wasn't clear. Apparently Cal believes I hate Germans though.

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It's not that hard to understand, I'm not pretending here that I don't understand why those people did that. But it shouldn't be viewed as acceptable simply because it is understandable.

I'm neither against it or for it. I think it can easily be viewed as acceptable and not just understandable. Admittedly there are those fanatics who burned the flag - they obviously still hold a serious grudge against the German nation, and they might have acceptable reasons to do so too. However, leaving your knesset seat when the Leader of the German Nation lectures the Jews on how to run their affairs, if its important to the guy, I can respect him for that decission. Its not a big deal for me, I'm not going to condemn him because he thinks gay marriage is wrong, nor will I condemn him if he thinks it is disrespectful for the Leader of the German nation to lecture Israeli parliment on their affairs while a large part of their constituency are holocaust survivors and so decides to leave.

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All I'm saying is that it's kinda stupid to hold a grudge with modern day Germany because of what happened during nazi dictatorship.

Right but less and less of a grudge will be handled over time.
My grandfather for instance (a holocaust survivor) refused to buy anything German, visit it/etc for about 40 years, but even he has softened. Last he flew through Germany on Luftansa to the USA to visit my family here. He complimented their service and friendliness.

Time heals all wounds, all I'm saying is don't be suprised that for some people the wound hasn't healed. It will in good time and till then, just as you wouldn't force a man with a borken leg to run, don't force a man with a broken soul to forgive.

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It's not a big fucking deal. In fact, if it weren't for all those posts saying that Europe is becoming a big antisemitic nazi fortress led by evil and soon to be muslim France, I wouldn't have posted it at all. It was just to portray that there are people on the other side with exactly the same mindset.

Well I don't think Europe is becoming a nazi fortress - I don't know what thread specifically you are talking about but I do believe Europe has to be ever vigelant as they have an inherient predisposition to become anti-semitic, and I'm not (nor do I believe they should be) confident that they have gotten rid of it just yet.

And I don't think the few Jews who still hold a grudge against the nation of Germany are comparable to those anti-semites that do currently exist. I believe you are talking about a magnitude of a couple factors of difference.

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Originally posted by Cal Hah are you for real?

Nah I'm pulling one over on you! HAHAHAHAHAHA LOOLROOLL ROFLFOA HAHAHAHAH

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The difference is the UN members are expressing their opposition to the present government tactics of Israel VS the knesset members expressing their opposition to a man who comes from a country that had an oppressive regime that was dismantled over 50 years ago. How the hell does it qualify as being out of respect if the guy had nothing to do with the holocaust?

The German leader repersents the German Nation. Just as the Israeli ambassador the UN repersents the State of Israel. It shall come as no suprise to you to learn that the Israeli Ambassador to the UN is not personally and actively engaging in the oppression of the Palestinains - yet he is condemend for it all the same.

Similarly, the current German leader is not personally and actively engaging/having engaged in the obliteration of the Jews - yet he is condemend for it.

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Youd think jews would be the biggest advocates for eliminating racism

Well its obvious your not the biggest advocate...

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Those things they say about you people don't seem all that off now, so thanks for the proof.

Glad I could do my part to confirm your anti-semitic ideology for you.

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And by the way, all of my abusive ad hominems that I have ever said in my life are chump change compared to this masterpiece:

Guess you've never heard anyone use the phrase "probable fact".

I wouldn't cross my fingers on those LSAT score...

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They need to build you a statue.

Well at least we agree on one thing.

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Fuck I feel dumber after reading that sentence again.

I don't know, I have a sense you were quiet dumb before reading that sentance, but whatever I can do...

wow look at all those caps and smileys, I really got to you didnt I

most anti-semetic country aww,,,i think POLAND...jews and poland=destruction. there are so many jews in poland that have their backgrounds hidden for the fact...for instance our president Aleksander Kwasniewski, his real name on his birth certificat is Itzak Stolzmann, can't get any more jewish than that...maybe 20% of poles are like that, so take 40 million and you got the biggest jewish population in the world...Amazing...no wonder poles are so disgusted of the jews

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Originally posted by crazyadas most anti-semetic country aww,,,i think POLAND...jews and poland=destruction. there are so many jews in poland that have their backgrounds hidden for the fact...for instance our president Aleksander Kwasniewski, his real name on his birth certificat is Itzak Stolzmann, can't get any more jewish than that...maybe 20% of poles are like that, so take 40 million and you got the biggest jewish population in the world...Amazing...no wonder poles are so disgusted of the jews

Riiiiight...not sure why that would mean Poles are disgusted at Jews? Did somebody try to blame them for poisoning the water or summat?!

So george, we should burn the UK down for that huh? .. so anything against some jewish fegure, not intended to the race.. is anit-simetic anyways?..

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Originally posted by LiquidX So george, we should burn the UK down for that huh? .. so anything against some jewish fegure, not intended to the race.. is anit-simetic anyways?..

Burn the UK down for what?

ask a jew this question:
whos responsible for the holocaust?

8/10 will say poland!

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