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Originally posted by 3xx3r7 In many states, like Florida, sales tax is the largest level of income. 7% may sound little, but seven percent from almost every transaction combined together is a whole lot.

And I don't disagree. My point was that to say that the average illegal immigrant is minding his business and paying taxes is a bit of a misrepresentation of the truth. 7% is better than nothing, but it absolutely pales in comparison when you look at it in the bigger picture of our total tax liability.

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Originally posted by Shakka And I don't disagree. My point was that to say that the average illegal immigrant is minding his business and paying taxes is a bit of a misrepresentation of the truth. 7% is better than nothing, but it absolutely pales in comparison when you look at it in the bigger picture of our total tax liability.

Who's benefiting is the companies that hire them, they pay them bad wages that no one here could imagine raising their family on. Bush's immigration stance that anger's many conservatives is really a boone for companies that hire illegals. I think that most illegal immigrants employed in the U.S. wouldn't make enough to surpass tax exempt status on their income anyway. We'd get a lot more revenue if companies like Tyco didn't lie and say they're not American to avoid paying any taxes. That's the biggest thing that's shifted the tax burden onto average Americans since WWII.

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Originally posted by wolverine16 Who's benefiting is the companies that hire them, they pay them bad wages that no one here could imagine raising their family on. Bush's immigration stance that anger's many conservatives is really a boone for companies that hire illegals. I think that most illegal immigrants employed in the U.S. wouldn't make enough to surpass tax exempt status on their income anyway. We'd get a lot more revenue if companies like Tyco didn't lie and say they're not American to avoid paying any taxes. That's the biggest thing that's shifted the tax burden onto average Americans since WWII.

I'm not sure I understand your point. This is quite the divergence from the conversation I was having with Biznology where I stated that most illegal immigrants most likely aren't paying taxes like everyone else(aside from sales tax, since it is not traceable to any SSN or address).

However, even at minimum wage, working 40 hours a week, a person is probably taking home about $11,000 per year gross, which paltry as it may be, is above the minimum tax threshold, unless I am mistaken. In any event, not making enough money should not be used as an excuse not to play by the rules.

And btw, you're lying when you say Tyco doesn't pay taxes. What you hopefully meant to say is that they don't pay all of their taxes at the full U.S. rate because they are incorporated in Bermuda. There's a big difference between paying no taxes, paying an average 27% tax rate, and paying a 35% tax rate. Not to mention that many companies pay a lower tax rate than the 35% rate because a large portion of their sales take place internationally(like Tyco), and therefore those sales are subjected to the tax rate of the international destination where the revenues are generated.

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Originally posted by Shakka I'm not sure I understand your point. This is quite the divergence from the conversation I was having with Biznology where I stated that most illegal immigrants most likely aren't paying taxes like everyone else(aside from sales tax, since it is not traceable to any SSN or address). However, even at minimum wage, working 40 hours a week, a person is probably taking home about $11,000 per year gross, which paltry as it may be, is above the minimum tax threshold, unless I am mistaken. In any event, not making enough money should not be used as an excuse not to play by the rules. And btw, you're lying when you say Tyco doesn't pay taxes. What you hopefully meant to say is that they don't pay all of their taxes at the full U.S. rate because they are incorporated in Bermuda. There's a big difference between paying no taxes, paying an average 27% tax rate, and paying a 35% tax rate. Not to mention that many companies pay a lower tax rate than the 35% rate because a large portion of their sales take place internationally(like Tyco), and therefore those sales are subjected to the tax rate of the international destination where the revenues are generated.

People making $11,000 a year supporting a family would not be paying federal income taxes, even if they were citizens. They'd also be entitled to use a lot of government programs, so it's actually a benefit for business and government the way it is. There are some taxes that they would pay if citizens, but nowhere near what the average American does.

Tyco uses the offshore loophole, like many other corporations do to avoid paying what they should owe in taxes. It's no secret they're really an American company. It's technically legal and does not shelter them from paying all U.S. taxes they should, but I would say a lot more unethical and at a far greater cost to the country. It's had a huge impact on shifting the tax burden onto American workers, because corporations today pay much less of the percentage of overall tax revenue than they did 50 years ago, despite continued economic growth.

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Originally posted by wolverine16 Tyco uses the offshore loophole, like many other corporations do to avoid paying what they should owe in taxes. It's no secret they're really an American company. It's technically legal and does not shelter them from paying all U.S. taxes they should, but I would say a lot more unethical and at a far greater cost to the country. It's had a huge impact on shifting the tax burden onto American workers, because corporations today pay much less of the percentage of overall tax revenue than they did 50 years ago, despite continued economic growth.

I'm not defending them, but when the board of directors proposed moving their headquarters back to the U.S., the shareholders loudly rejected the proposal, so surely a lot of blame lies in the hands of the investors--not solely in the hands of Tyco brass.

And if an illegal immigrant is sponging off entitlement programs that are paid for by U.S. tax payers, and intended for U.S. citizens--doesn't it bother you in the slightest that you'd be paying an undue tax burden to subsidize someone who shouldn't even be here in the first place? But I agree--if they were citizens, they would share more public responsibilities and I'd be much more content knowing that at least my tax dollars aren't being spent on illegal alien entitlement programs.

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Originally posted by Shakka Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the average illegal immigrant is probably paying no taxes at all(since he/she would have no SSN and aren't registered with the government, paying taxes would amount to nothing less than a mea culpa). I think that represents a big part of the problem.

In theory, it would be true, but in reality it's not. Did you know that if you go to Columbia Rd in Washington DC, you can buy a SSC for 60 dollars?? Might not be their own number but the money is going somewhere. People that use a fake SSC don't claim their taxes at the beginning of the year like everybody else because of fear of being caught (since it's not their number in the first place- that's the extra bucks the country gets around April)
Also, some workers that get paid under the table but want to pay taxes get a Tax ID number to be able to prove to Immigration (now Homeland Security) at some point that they've been paying taxes.

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Originally posted by claudits In theory, it would be true, but in reality it's not. Did you know that if you go to Columbia Rd in Washington DC, you can buy a SSC for 60 dollars?? Might not be their own number but the money is going somewhere. People that use a fake SSC don't claim their taxes at the beginning of the year like everybody else because of fear of being caught (since it's not their number in the first place- that's the extra bucks the country gets around April) Also, some workers that get paid under the table but want to pay taxes get a Tax ID number to be able to prove to Immigration (now Homeland Security) at some point that they've been paying taxes.

Interesting. Do you have any stats that might indicate how pervasive this is? A few thousand or a few million?

I remember when I used to work on a golf course back in the day...one of the Mexicans on the grounds crew actually had a pretty sophisticated setup to make fake IDs for the immigrant workers. We tried to use our connection to get fake IDs for ourselves, though it never panned out for us.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Great idea

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Originally posted by Trancer-X Well, maybe you should go and study up on the ways of the former Soviet Union and their internal passport system. You seem so vocal about everything that I post here, yet you also want me to hand feed you information that you should probably be researching on your own. I'm personally not about to consent to the further destruction of my Constitutional rights by a co-opted government that intends to systematically destroy each and every one of them. We already have Social Security numbers which are being used for much greater than their originally intended purpose.

That would be because you continuely bring up arguements I have a hard time swallowing yet you figure everyone should just accept them as status quo.
Like this one where we're are comparing two completely different political systems like they were of the same ilk, a terror state and a state under terror.
I guess having a driver's license must really be a really harrowing experience then.
Wait, what about that Blockbuster card!
(I know for a fact that the first thing those communist P.I.s look for when doing skiptracing are Blockbuster memberships).

I'm being facetious of course but my point is when someone is questioning the logic of an agruement, save the knee-jerked reaction of name-calling for the kids in the playground.
I may seem to be riding you but I'm only curious where the argument will go; devil's advocate if you will.
I'm not totally devoid of the arguements being displayed (and yes, I do try and do my homework before replying) so please excuse me if I'm not the consimate Poli-Sci bookworm.
However most issues here aren't logic based (god knows some of you must breath politics) but of mindset and you know what? That's all right, but before butting heads take a step back and have some empathy.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the average illegal immigrant is probably paying no taxes at all(since he/she would have no SSN and aren't registered with the government, paying taxes would amount to nothing less than a mea culpa). I think that represents a big part of the problem.

This is one of the biggest/worst perceptions of the mainly educated illegal inmigrants, as a matter of fact, a huge portion of them have come here, created a business, and after 9/11, the US gov't has used everything on it's hands to classify the inmigrants as terrorits, have gotten extensions and visas denied, and therefore, what should they rather do?!?!.. Go back to their country with nothing, or stay here illegally?!?!.. this is the most common thing, there is a huge portion thave have come here to invest and pump up the economy. There's also a huge portion of currently illegal inmigrants who DO pay taxes, who do have SSN ( there were ways to get a SSN prior to 9.11 through many ways ) .. and this individuals do pay the taxes, and dont get it back ( this prob. one of the reasons why the US gov't does not DEPORT them in masses, the US economy would crumble. There is also the workers, mainly the Central American's who go and work on the fields.. the big work-force behind all the food on the supermarkets.

Secondly, do you guys KNOW how much it would cost to invest into all the new machinery, training on every driver license center of the country?!?!... they are making regular workers work as an Inmigrant officer... there are many drawbacks on this one card.. and is definetly not a solution. The best solution would be having all illegal inmigrants get this one card as well ( therefore the gov't KNOWS whose in the country ).. without punishing them, or else, it would just keep them underground, think about this, there are more then 15 million illegal inmigrants.. and the Bush team is doing nothing about, and this would just make it terribly worst.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Interesting. Do you have any stats that might indicate how pervasive this is? A few thousand or a few million? I remember when I used to work on a golf course back in the day...one of the Mexicans on the grounds crew actually had a pretty sophisticated setup to make fake IDs for the immigrant workers. We tried to use our connection to get fake IDs for ourselves, though it never panned out for us.

I can easily tell you this goes on for a couple of millions of desperate people that want to work..

Another solution would probably just to make the existing systems talk together better.
Yet another database of redundant information costing untold millions could be asking for trouble when it comes down to stolen identities etc.
I'm going to guess that they're suggesting a whole new system because it would probably cost MORE to revamp the old system(s) than to just create a brand new one from scratch.
Maybe not a great solution but it could be more cost effective with less time taken as long as the process if implementation was well thought out so as to not cause bottlenecks.

Yesterday, HB 418 the REAL ID Act was voted on and passed by the house 261-161. The bill calls for the Dept of Homeland Security to draft the regulations and must include either a magnetic strip or an RFID. All federal employees are to deny services w/o a proper ID.

Lets see how the Senate votes.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X And you're about what, 15 years old? Try asking your grandparents if they were able to roam about Poland and Lithuania so easily.

You can check my age in my profile. And why are we talking about my grandparents ? are you trying to compare USA to a comunist country ?

Can u say 1984?
This is just the first step toward the New World Order.
Good luck America, YOU voted for 'em

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Originally posted by TheVrk Can u say 1984? This is just the first step toward the New World Order. Good luck America, YOU voted for 'em

And people always question how the German's were so easily duped into accepting Hitler as Chancellor of their country.

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0403a.asp

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/gen...19.html#article

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Originally posted by stren You can check my age in my profile. And why are we talking about my grandparents ? are you trying to compare USA to a comunist country ?

It didn't seem like you understood, so I figured that you're grandparents might be able to clue you in on that thing called history. You know, that thing that it's best to try and understand so that we're not doomed to repeat it's mistakes.

Trotsky's financiers were for the most part American, so it doesn't take a great deal of intellect to figure out that those ideas have been established here for quite some time. America's very own Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) has it's roots in the Fabian Society, a Socialist debating group.


Anyway, I'm comparing ideologies - NOT countries. I figured that your grandparents would have told you a few stories in regards to the days of Fascism, but I guess I was wrong.

If i was American, u'd NEVER get me to get a radio-transmittable ID.
God i feel for ya (kinda)

Well in all liklihood an RFID id card would be passive as opposed to active, unless your id card is attached to some kind of power generator. So in a sense, unless there's an antenna transmitting from no farther than 5 meters away to induce an electrical current with a radio-frequency scan, the RFID sits there doing nothing. It's just like the ez pass system you use in your cars so you can pay tolls electroncally. It's really quite impractical for the governemnt to track your every movement with an RFID id card unless you think that they'll set up an ez pass scanning system on every street corner. Practically, the only areas I could conceivably imagine a systematic set up of scanners would be on borders. So my view is that I'm relatively unconcerned ... especially if the ID system is not mandatory.

Oddly enough, one of the leaders in the implementation of RFID technology is in fact ... Europe:

http://www.informationweek.com/show...icleID=57703000

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Originally posted by Zild Yesterday, HB 418 the REAL ID Act was voted on and passed by the house 261-161. The bill calls for the Dept of Homeland Security to draft the regulations and must include either a magnetic strip or an RFID. All federal employees are to deny services w/o a proper ID. Lets see how the house votes.

Read it would be tougher on the Senate though

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Originally posted by Trancer-X It's saddening to think about how naive people really are.

Not naive, just products of Pavlovian responses induced upon by electronic medium through enhanced diet.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X But that license should read, "Tim Osman"

How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.
Adolf Hitler

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Originally posted by Zild Would you want to be forced to carry a national ID card when you travel in your own country that has a radio chip that lets the government know where you are?

Pretty soon it will be sub-dermally implanted. By then in order for that to catch on there would have to be a worldwide disaster, such as a epidemic beyond the death tolls of war.

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Originally posted by Yoepus I don't know - if they could make a national id card a national driver's license card I think it'd be acceptable. As long as the government doesn't force it on people its not a violation of their constitutional rights.

It would take to humans better if there was a perceived problem of identifying people beyond that of normal conditions today.

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Frankly I'd rather get a national id card then a state drivers license because I wouldn't have to take a test everytime I move to another state.

Typical Pavlovian response. (No offense to you personally)

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Its not like the US government doesn't have one massive database right now anyway that can piece together info on all the citizens. This step would just streamline I think interstate trade.

Carnivore or any other computer dbase would have already been online. Don't forget the internet was actually the brainchild of DARPAnet, a secret military project from as early as the 1950's.

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Ideally I'd be against it, but if its optional I think the economic benifits will defintely out way any privacy concerns. And the government won't be able to do much even with an optional national id system since there will always be people like Trance-X that won't use the system and keep the rest of us safe from governmen t by doing so.

It's just a stepping stone to the next step.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the average illegal immigrant is probably paying no taxes at all(since he/she would have no SSN and aren't registered with the government, paying taxes would amount to nothing less than a mea culpa). I think that represents a big part of the problem.

Neither are the rich and famous paying their fair share. Also do you see the Bush twins holding any jobs at The Gap and MacDonalds?

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka And I don't disagree. My point was that to say that the average illegal immigrant is minding his business and paying taxes is a bit of a misrepresentation of the truth. 7% is better than nothing, but it absolutely pales in comparison when you look at it in the bigger picture of our total tax liability.

And just who is liable for income tax? Answer this but looking in US Code 26 AKA the Tax Code or Internal Revenue Code.

quote:

Originally posted by TheVrk Can u say 1984? This is just the first step toward the New World Order. Good luck America, YOU voted for 'em

If it were Kerry that would be President the country would still be under the same script for it's future.


All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.
Shakespeare

To all those worried about the National ID card....no need...apparently Choicepoint will sell it to you...

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Database giant gives access to fake firms Consumer frustrated by notification The letter urges consumers to check their credit reports for suspicious activity. "We believe that several individuals, posing as legitimate business customers, recently committed fraud by claiming to have a lawful purpose for accessing information about individuals," it reads. "You should continue to check your credit reports frequently for the next year." The two-page letter offers details on how to spot fraud, but no additional information about the incident, or what information may have actually been stolen. "ChoicePoint has apologized for any inconvenience this incident may cause," said ChoicePoint spokesman Chuck Jones. "But ChoicePoint has no way of knowing whether anyone's personal information actually has been accessed," or used to commit identity theft, he added. California consumer Elizabeth Rosen, who received the ChoicePoint letter Friday, was upset that the company only provided sketchy details about the incident to her. "They gave a toll free number to call, but when I called, the person just read from a script ... they said disclosing too many details may hurt an ongoing investigation," Rosen said. "I'm not happy about this. I didn't even know who ChoicePoint was." That reaction is common, according to Solove. "Even though you might not have heard of ChoicePoint, they've heard of you. They are playing a role in your people's lives whether they know it or not," he said. Privacy consultant Larry Ponemon, who operates the Ponemon Institute, said he was surprised criminals were able to pose as ChoicePoint clients. "What really concerns me is when low-tech methods are used to gain access, than you really have problems," said. "Obviously this is very surprising, given that they are in the data business." Jones said ChoicePoint had adjusted its procedures to "help protect against a repeat" of the incident. Bob Sullivan is the author of Your Evil Twin: Behind the Identity Theft Epidemic.

I like the way you think ogvh5150.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 Neither are the rich and famous paying their fair share. Also do you see the Bush twins holding any jobs at The Gap and McDonalds?

So what do you think the "fair share" is for the rich? Typical diffusion of responsibility(no offense to you).

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Originally posted by Trancer-X Trotsky's financiers were for the most part American, so it doesn't take a great deal of intellect to figure out that those ideas have been established here for quite some time. America's very own Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) has it's roots in the Fabian Society, a Socialist debating group.

Close but no cigar.

Remember, remember, remember. There always has to be a boogeyman to blame.

Someone had to start the CFR which is a sister to the RIIA.

It's all smoke and mirrors.
Bread and circuses.

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Originally posted by Zild I like the way you think ogvh5150.

Thank you.

I don't think, I just let other people get good information. What they intend to do with it is up to them.

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Originally posted by Shakka So what do you think the "fair share" is for the rich? Typical diffusion of responsibility(no offense to you).

It is easy for someone to say that "illegal" aliens have to pay their share since they are not in the system than for companies that use the "offshore loophole" to bypass paying taxes. If it's ok for a company to fatten it's bottom line from paying their fair share why should anyone else with less to offer offset the balance?

The responsibility to the tax system should not just fall on the average citizen whether illegal or not but also to companies that skirt the tax laws because they have a few people named John Q. Public Esquire on their payroll that look for the loopholes.

Until you read the Internal Revenue Code then you will understand more.

Knowledge makes a man unfit to be a slave.
Fredrick Douglass

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 It is easy for someone to say that "illegal" aliens have to pay their share since they are not in the system than for companies that use the "offshore loophole" to bypass paying taxes. If it's ok for a company to fatten it's bottom line from paying their fair share why should anyone else with less to offer offset the balance? The responsibility to the tax system should not just fall on the average citizen whether illegal or not but also to companies that skirt the tax laws because they have a few people named John Q. Public Esquire on their payroll that look for the loopholes. Until you read the Internal Revenue Code then you will understand more. Knowledge makes a man unfit to be a slave. Fredrick Douglass

That's great, but you didn't answer my question. What exactly is a "fair" share in your opinion.

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