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-- Americans shoot at the freed Italian reporter
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quote:

Originally posted by Blue Balls Iraq Check Points Did you know that check point areas on Iraq roads are not known by Iraqi drivers. No signs. No warnings. Standard protcol that American Soliders use to warn or signal a check point is to shoot in the air upon the oncoming car/traffic. If the car does not stop or slow down after the 'warning' shot, soliders are advised to shot the car and/or the driver. I did not beleive this myself until I saw this practice on TV! I was watching a PBS documentary on the war in Iraq and they showed numerous american solider doing this at various check points. My personaly reaction was ' Wow I can't believe they spent 80 billion dollars on this war but could not buy road signs that say in the Iraqi language WARNING CHECK POINT AHEAD SLOW DOWN etc. or something you would typically see on road to warn drivers to slow down etc.' Are these people in the army that fucking stupid. Seriously. What if you were an Iraqi driving your car. how the fuck are they supposed to know that gun fire means slow down or stop!!! Recently , an Italian CIA agent was killed because of this STUPID policy that the American Army is using at check points. I guess the stupidity in the white house has manifested itself on the battle feild. Amazing!

Well, I guess this explains it then. Really a brilliant policy.

^ you're in PDD
sources or stfu

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew I think this proves that it is very easy to get shot in Iraq for no reason whatsoever.

Altho I doesn't help when your reason for being in Iraq is to expose US WMD use in Fallujah!

Give me a break...she's a journalist.

1. She was in Iraq, a place in which her government told her not to go.

2. She set out with the mission of "showing the real Iraq, not the Iraq shown on TV with it's "false" elections, and fake American signs of hope."

3. She was kidnapped, during which she was "given" prophecies that the Americans would "not be happy" with her return.

4. Upon release, she was shot at, for unknown reasons, by Americans at a checkpoint.

This is the kind of stuff that can make a career, to think she's not going to milk this for everything it's worth is a joke. What happened at the checkpoint will remain a mystery as long as it's keeping her in the spotlight. She's going to make millions out of her "ordeal" and if she can milk a few more million out by bending the truth in her favor, you can bet she will. She set out to show the "evils" of America in Iraq, and right now she's still on her mission.

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow If the soldiers are accurately describing what happened, they didn't stop at the check point, then firing at the car was justified.

heh. for once i agree with you.



>JM<

oh , if by now they dont know to stop when they hear shots while driving on a road, and seeing a ton of American soldiers ahead, then I too will assume they got bombs in that car, and are driving towards the soldiers on a suicide mission.

the shots were justified. end of story. too bad for the injured italian, its the risk you take when you go report news in the middle of a war and dont know what the hell is going on.

>JM<

quote:

Originally posted by JM oh , if by now they dont know to stop when they hear shots while driving on a road, and seeing a ton of American soldiers ahead, then I too will assume they got bombs in that car, and are driving towards the soldiers on a suicide mission. the shots were justified. end of story. too bad for the injured italian, its the risk you take when you go report news in the middle of a war and dont know what the hell is going on. >JM<

Who said there where "tons of american soldiers ahead". Don't many checkpoints have only 2-3 soldiers?

Plus, the driver said they were only going in 45-50 km/h which can't be considered very fast.

Even so, I have a hard time believing this was some deliberate plot by the US forces in Iraq. Don't really care much about conspiracy theories. My take on it is that it was most probably a misstake. The guards screwed up somehow.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj_Irish Who said there where "tons of american soldiers ahead". Don't many checkpoints have only 2-3 soldiers? Plus, the driver said they were only going in 45-50 km/h which can't be considered very fast. Even so, I have a hard time believing this was some deliberate plot by the US forces in Iraq. Don't really care much about conspiracy theories. My take on it is that it was most probably a misstake. The guards screwed up somehow.

No idea whether its a conspiracy but its dodgy as fuck and something is being covered up (also it is emerging the "offical" line as first reported is being constantly unravelled - there was no check point, nobody told them to slow down, etc)

quote:

Originally posted by JM too bad for the injured italian >JM<

Dead Italian.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj_Irish Even so, I have a hard time believing this was some deliberate plot by the US forces in Iraq. Don't really care much about conspiracy theories. My take on it is that it was most probably a misstake. The guards screwed up somehow.

Yea, if there was no offical line, judging from the autopcy I would have said the car simply stumbled into a crossfire (which would explain a good reason to speed, and why the car could continue to the airport after it was shot at, and why only one bullet hit the car) and was not the target of anything.

But I do know I don't believe the commie journalist, but I don't believe the official line either. But I don't know if there is an official line, has the Pentagon really publicly commented on this matter?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley No idea whether its a conspiracy but its dodgy as fuck and something is being covered up (also it is emerging the "offical" line as first reported is being constantly unravelled - there was no check point, nobody told them to slow down, etc)

The number of times the administration has been caught covering up and lying, makes it difficult to believe anything they say. The best-case scenario it was a trigger-happy patrol that made a mistake and at worst it was planned ambush to eliminate an "unfriendly" journalist. Maybe the soldiers were told dangerous terrorist were headed their way and to stop them using whatever force necessary. This way it would look like an accident. All of this is speculation but the US owes Italy and the victims an apology, reparations, and soldiers actions should be investigated and punished if found negligent. Why does the US always have to be dragged kicking and screaming to do the right thing?

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow Then number of times the administration has been caught covering up and lying, makes it difficult to believe anything they say. The best-case scenario it was a trigger-happy patrol that made a mistake and at worst it was planned ambush to eliminate an "unfriendly" journalist. Maybe the soldiers were told dangerous terrorist were headed their way and to stop them using whatever force necessary. This way it would look like an accident.

Some good points, but there is no way we can be certain on what really happened. We can stretch this story to be so unreal if we wanted to just to make money/cover our secrets.

quote:

All of this is speculation but the US owes Italy and the victims an apology, reparations, and soldiers actions should be investigated and punished if found negligent. Why does the US always have to be dragged kick and screaming to do the right thing.

Sadly, you are spot on.

Well here's her version of events...

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Media/...0605sgrena.html

Apparently she has some devestating information on the US in Iraq...

This incident unfortunately does raise some questions on our actions at the checkpoint. Is it time for everyone to put their tin foil hats on? Well, let�s just you maybe might want to see if yours still fits.

Here's some captions from the latest news pieces on this debacle:

quote:

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi demanded explanations from the United States on Friday after American forces in Iraq wounded freed hostage Giuliana Sgrena and shot dead a secret service agent. Berlusconi, a close ally of President Bush, said he was stunned by the shooting and had summoned the U.S. ambassador to explain how American troops had fired on Sgrena as the Italian reporter was being driven to Baghdad airport. "We were turned to stone when the officials told us about it on the telephone," Berlusconi told a news conference. "I immediately summoned the U.S. ambassador ... who will have to clarify the behavior of the U.S. military for such a serious incident, which someone will have to take responsibility for." http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...taly_release_dc

So they ain't happy. And by all accounts we are supposedly cooperating with our Italian allies on the matter:

quote:

"We are working with our Italian allies as we fully investigate the circumstances of this tragedy," Mel Sembler, the U.S. ambassador to Italy, said in an e-mailed statement. "I would like to express the sympathy of the United States of America to our ally the Italian Republic and to the families of the victims of this terrible incident." Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi will explain what happened to the Senate on March 9 while Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini will face the Lower House of Parliament the previous day, the Italian government said in a faxed statement today. U.S. President George W. Bush called Berlusconi late Friday afternoon to express regret about the incident and offer cooperation in the investigation, White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters aboard Air Force One. "The incident is under investigation now and we are cooperating closely with the Italian authorities," McClellan said. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?...i0&refer=europe

Just in case you missed that last sentence of mine, let me state it again - Italian allies, or to be specific, Berlusconi supported our invasion while the vast majority of the Italian citizens did not. Now this relationship with Italy (i.e. supporters of our invasion) does put a bit of an interesting twist on the matter with our alleged motives of shooting at this reporter:

quote:

The attack against Sgrena and Calipari risks rekindling anti-U.S. protests by that part of the Italian population that always opposed the war in Iraq as well as Berlusconi's support to Bush, Italian newspapers including Corriere della Sera reported today. The prime minister has pledged to leave Italy's 3,000 soldiers in the southern Iraqi city of Nasiriyah until the new government in Baghdad asks for a withdrawal. Italy has the fourth-largest contingent of the 29 countries with soldiers in Iraq. Only the U.S., U.K. and South Korea have more. "It was a tragedy determined by fate," Italian Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini told Corriere della Sera in an interview published today. "The opinion on the U.S. must not change in any way." (Same source as above)

And then the conspiracy starts:

quote:

President Bush promised a full investigation into the shooting. The U.S. military said the car she was riding in after her release was speeding as it approached a coalition checkpoint in western Baghdad on its way to the airport. Soldiers shot into the engine block after trying to warn the driver to stop by "hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and firing warning shots," the military said. When The Associated Press in Baghdad asked the U.S. military to see the vehicle on Saturday, the military said it didn't know where it was. http://www.editorandpublisher.com/e...t_id=1000827944

Umm, huh? Starting to smell a tad bit fishy? Evidence missing anyone? Read the rest of that article in Editor and Publisher above. The world media is smelling something a bit foul too.

And then the conspiracy gets even deeper:

quote:

Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena has challenged the U.S. account of a shooting incident that left her wounded and an Italian intelligence officer dead shortly after her release by Iraqi insurgents. And in an article for Sunday's edition of her newspaper, Il Manifesto, she said the shooting, which occurred Friday as agents were taking her to the airport in Baghdad, recalled her captors' warning that "the Americans don't want you to return." Sgrena, who was kidnapped outside a mosque in Baghdad on February 4, said her captors treated her well and took her to meet the Italian security agents after blindfolding her, telling her, "don't give any signals of your presence with us, otherwise the Americans could intervene." At the time, she said, "I considered those words superfluous and ideological. At that moment they risked acquiring the flavor of the bitterest of truths." Sgrena said she "risked everything" to challenge "the Italian government, who didn't want journalists to reach Iraq, and the Americans," who she said did not want the public to see "what really became of that country with the war, and notwithstanding that which they call elections." Il Manifesto, a left-leaning newspaper that has long opposed the Iraq war, even accused U.S. forces on Saturday of "assassinating" Nicola Calipari, who was killed protecting Sgrena from U.S. gunfire. Sgrena's partner, Pierre Scolari, blamed the shooting on the U.S. government, even suggesting the incident was intentional. "I hope the Italian government does something because either this was an ambush, as I think, or we are dealing with imbeciles or terrorized kids who shoot at anyone," he said, according to Reuters. http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europ...iraq/index.html

Now by itself you might easily conclude that she might indeed be "milking" this for financial gain as well as notoriety. Combine it with the damn car being unaccounted for, and I think we begin to move out of the she's-full-of-shit realm. And this doesn't help matters either:

quote:

The companion of freed Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena on Saturday leveled serious accusations at US troops who fired at her convoy as it was nearing Baghdad airport, saying the shooting had been deliberate. "The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home. "They were 700 meters (yards) from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints." The shooting late Friday was witnessed by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's office which was on the phone with one of the secret service agents, said Scolari. "Then the US military silenced the cellphones," he charged. "Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her to survive," he added. When Sgrena was kidnapped on February 4 she was writing an article on refugees from Fallujah seeking shelter at a Baghdad mosque after US forces bombed the former Sunni rebel stronghold. http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=38029

Emphasis mine.

Here�s some more on her companion:

quote:

Scholari: �The Americans shut down the cell phones of our agents who were with Giuliana. They shut them off while they [the agents] were speaking with Silvio Berlusconi, they prevented the emergency medical technicians from approaching the wounded," Scolari recounts, basing himself on the eyewitness testimony of the Italian secret service agents at the scene. But how is it possible that all this was allowed to happen?" In that moment I shouted at the premier [Berlusconi] that your war is to blame for this. This war is madness and these are the results that it produces.� Scolari dismisses as ridiculous the official story-line that has been circulating in US military circles that "the car was driving at full speed toward the American check point" where the shooting took place: �Giuliana and the other people who were there told me that the American attack was completely unjustified. They had allerted the whole chain of command, the Italian troops were awaiting them at the airport. Any yet, they fired 300, 400 rounds. Why?� Then the accusation: �Giuliana is in possession of information that is inconvenient for the Americans, it was an ambush directed against her.� The anguished ravings of an aggravated and aggrieved boyfriend? Or is there something more to this story then we yet know? Meanwhile, Piero Fassino, secretary of the DS (Democrats of the Left), commenting publicly on the incident, stated: �It's incredible that a man [Calipari] who was engaged in the difficult work of saving a life was killed by those who claim to be in Iraq in order to protect the lives of its citizens. Was there - or wasn't there - coordination between our intelligence serivces in Iraq and the other intelligence services of the forces of the coalition? Were their information-sharing procedures that were agreed upon in advance between our intelligence services and the American military forces? And,if so, why did the check point start firing?� http://www.unita.it/index.asp?SEZIO...&TOPIC_ID=41250

So now her conspiracy theory doesn't just involve herself, but her companion, Italian Secret Service, and PM Berlusconi's office? And I�m sorry, but I really don�t buy the the notion that there was NO mention of her coming through our checkpoint by the Italians to our military. And if for some blind reason that was the case, this only demonstrates further just how uncoordinated and fucked up things are there in Iraq.

So let's just say it - if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck,

IT JUST MIGHT BE A FUCKING DUCK!

And it appears this is scoring some bonus points for Italy's political opposition group:

quote:

Opposition leaders raised questions about the incident. "Was there coordination between our intelligence service and the others in Iraq?" asked Piero Fassino, who heads the Democratic Left, the largest opposition faction. "Was the unified command in Iraq informed that a car was traveling to the airport with the just-liberated kidnapped person? What information was exchanged between our agencies and American forces?" "Don't believe a word of the U.S. version," said Oliviero Diliberto, secretary of the Italian Communist Party. "There's an attempt to mask what actually happened. The Americans deliberately fired on the Italians." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...7-2005Mar5.html

And this does, indeed leave some unanswered questions:

quote:

How many people were wounded? The Americans said two civilians: Sgrena and an intelligence agent. Italian authorities said two agents were wounded besides Sgrena. Italian military officials declined to clear up the discrepancy and Berlusconi's office did not respond to a request for information. Were the Americans told by the Italians of Sgrena's imminent release or that she would be taken straight to Baghdad airport? Italians will likely be expecting answers early next week when Italian authorities, including Berlusconi, are to brief parliament on the abduction, release and shooting. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=554726

This stinks, period. What say you, oh dear Bush apologists?

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 And I�m sorry, but I really don�t buy the the notion that there was NO mention of her coming through our checkpoint by the Italians to our military. And if for some blind reason that was the case, this only demonstrates further just how uncoordinated and fucked up things are there in Iraq.

Exactly, it's all starting to seem a bit murky now. Ultimately this incident might have some pretty serious consequences on Berlusconi's position and on the Italian stay in Iraq...

Maybe the Americans didn't expect the car at the checkpoint because the Italians didn't tell us about it.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/2005...20131-5769r.htm

I disagree I think, regretably, that the status quo will prevail. Apparently though the particular unit involved (3rd Inf) is pretty well known for this kinda thing.

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Italian allies, or to be specific, Berlusconi supported our invasion while the vast majority of the Italian citizens did not. Now this relationship with Italy (i.e. supporters of our invasion) does put a bit of an interesting twist on the matter with our alleged motives of shooting at this reporter:

I'd agree motives for foul play point more to Berlusconi than the US. The only positive out come to this is it adds to the likelyhood Berlusconi will be voted out and troops will be withdrawn from iraq. But since he is wed to Bush I doubt we will see any change in Italy's role in Iraq while he remains in power. Look for Bush to throw him a bone, whether that's to find a scapegoat, discredit the woman, or make up a plausable excuse to explain the soldiers actions.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Maybe the Americans didn't expect the car at the checkpoint because the Italians didn't tell us about it. http://www.washtimes.com/world/2005...20131-5769r.htm

It seems the headline of the far, far, far, far, far (have I said far?), Right-leaning Moonie Times is a bit misleading. Upon further reading we see this:

quote:

Mr. Calipari and another senior SISMI operative concluded the deal for her release on Friday in Abu Dhabi and then flew to Baghdad aboard a secret service Falcon executive jet to collect her, La Stampa said. At the airport, they met an Italian military liaison office,r and U.S. military authorities issued them passes allowing them to travel around Baghdad carrying weapons, the newspaper said citing SISMI sources. The sources said the Italians explained "the terms of the mission" and "the exact nature of the operation" to U.S. officials at the airport. Sources also said an American officer was instructed to wait at the airport for Mr. Calipari and the freed hostage. But La Stampa also quoted diplomatic sources saying vital information was withheld from the Americans. "Italian intelligence decided to free Sgrena paying a sum to the kidnappers without informing American colleagues in Iraq who, if they had known about this, would have had to oppose it, to have impeded the operation," sources said. "If this was the case, it could explain why American intelligence had not informed the American military commands about the operation and thus the patrol did not expect the car with the Italians." Whatever the truth�..

Hehe, I liked that last line, �whatever the truth�. As if the Moonies really live and die by the truth. I find this particular citation interesting, because, unlike the rest of the Moonie times which relies solely on factual data, they give heavy credence to unnamed sources being cited.

And the Conservatives give Sy Hersh a hard time citing unnamed sources? The problem with their criticisms towards Hersh, however, is that he tends to be pretty damn spot on every time, but I digress. This story, of course, remains to be seen.

Furthermore, did anyone else notice a spelling error above? Really fucking nitpicky, I know, but it really almost seems like the journalist, Phillips, was in such a hurried writing frenzy to show immediate Bush Administration support. Like I said, pretty damn small and nitpicky, sorry.

The content, however, is interesting. The Italians met with US MILITARY AUTHORITIES, who issued them passes and allowed them to travel around. And then what�s speculated by the Moonie writer to have occurred?:

quote:

The sources said the Italians explained "the terms of the mission" and "the exact nature of the operation" to U.S. officials at the airport. Sources also said an American officer was instructed to wait at the airport for Mr. Calipari and the freed hostage.

So regardless of the explicit details of the Italians paying off to free the hostage, THE AMERICAN MILITARY AUTHORITIES KNEW �THE EXACT NATURE OF THE OPERATION�, as well as an American officer being told to wait at the airport for them to return.

So who exactly kept whom in the dark? Was it the Italians keeping the Americans in the dark? Or was it the Americans keeping the Americans in the dark? What seems clear is that we likely did know, but did not pass this down to the military grunts doin� the checkpoints. Which if this is the case, this falls back on our severe lack of communication with one another WITHIN our own military.

But then from the sources I cited earlier, we run across this:

quote:

Knight Ridder reported: The U.S. military did not describe the nature of what it called a checkpoint, such as whether it was marked or well lighted. When stopping a car or investigating a possible bomb, U.S. patrols often set up makeshift checkpoints by parking Humvees in the middle of a darkened highway and treating any vehicle approaching as hostile. Iraqi drivers sometimes don't realize they are upon an American position until it is too late. Dozens and perhaps hundreds of Iraqi civilians have been killed in the last two years after failing to stop while approaching military convoys or checkpoints, including at least nine in the last two months, according to news reports and U.S. military statements. According to a Bloomberg News dispatch: Sgrena told Rome prosecutors Franco Ionta and Pietro Saviotti that the shots didn't come from soldiers standing at a checkpoint. "It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol that started shooting after pointing some lights in our direction," the Ansa news agency cited Sgrena as telling the prosecutors. "We hadn't previously encountered any checkpoint and we didn't understand where the shots came from." http://www.editorandpublisher.com/e...t_id=1000827944

So was it a checkpoint or wasn�t it? How does one even describe it when it was merely a patrol open firing?

And let me reiterate one previous post in particular:

quote:

The companion of freed Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena on Saturday leveled serious accusations at US troops who fired at her convoy as it was nearing Baghdad airport, saying the shooting had been deliberate. "The Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Pier Scolari said on leaving Rome's Celio military hospital where Sgrena is to undergo surgery following her return home. "They were 700 meters (yards) from the airport, which means that they had passed all checkpoints." The shooting late Friday was witnessed by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's office which was on the phone with one of the secret service agents, said Scolari. "Then the US military silenced the cellphones," he charged. "Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her to survive," he added. When Sgrena was kidnapped on February 4 she was writing an article on refugees from Fallujah seeking shelter at a Baghdad mosque after US forces bombed the former Sunni rebel stronghold. http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=38029

Emphasis mine. So it does seem likely that we knew they were coming, and the Americans cutting communications with Berlusconi�s office and his secret service agents is pretty damn suspicious.

Just like in the Abu Ghraib, everyone knew yet no one knew. I don't expect this investigation will rise above the foot soldiers who pulled the trigger even though the whole thing stinks of a coverup.

Doesn't anyone ever get tired of the administrations favorite side stepping routine of "yes, but no, but yes"?

quote:

Knight Ridder reported: The U.S. military did not describe the nature of what it called a checkpoint, such as whether it was marked or well lighted. When stopping a car or investigating a possible bomb, U.S. patrols often set up makeshift checkpoints by parking Humvees in the middle of a darkened highway and treating any vehicle approaching as hostile. Iraqi drivers sometimes don't realize they are upon an American position until it is too late. Dozens and perhaps hundreds of Iraqi civilians have been killed in the last two years after failing to stop while approaching military convoys or checkpoints, including at least nine in the last two months, according to news reports and U.S. military statements.

Gee, and I wonder why Iraqis don't like americans and why terrorism is flourishing there.

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Gee, and I wonder why Iraqis don't like americans and why terrorism is flourishing there.

Terrorism was already there...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Oh yea??? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...03/MN117862.DTL We're so trigger happy we'll even shoot ourselves! So nobody mess with us!

HHAHHAAAAAAA!!!!!
Heard they laid 300-400 rounds into the Italians. That'll teach 'em to obey the speed limit at a check point.


[[[smoke]]]

300-400 rounds huh?

Only one dead?

This stinks to high heaven no matter which way it gets sliced and diced:-

Basic questions:-

1. Did the Italians tell the Americans about the operation?

2. Did the chain of command pass this info down to the guys on the street?

3. Was the car speeding? Did it stop?

4. How is it all the occupants didn't die? If this was an assasination attempt it was botched royally..

5. Who would stand to gain from her being dead? Why?

6. how many shots were fires? from where?

I'm afraid I can't swallow that 300-400 rounds were fired at the car. It seams a little high if she's still alive... That car would be cheese, along with eveyone in it. So I'm inclined to doubt that tally for the shots (These are supposedly highly trained soldiers here, not star wars Imperial Stormtoopers with a miss rate bordering on the ludicrus).

Mind you it's not looking good for them. Unless it's proven that the car rushed the checkpoint (so close to the airport I'd imagine it was a fixed point, not mobile. Think about it.

Either they're assasins, and not very competant ones at that. Very unlikely IMHO.

They're trigger happy yobs.. Unlikely, but you never know.

Or the car indeed rushed the point, possibly due to a miscommunication (They thought the patrol knew).

What ever happens a man is dead (Odd how this gets us wound up, but this kind of shooting is a daily occurrance in Iraq).

It's going to be interesting watching the spin on this..

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Terrorism was already there...

Ya Al Queda has always been there I forgot


Are you gonna start the whole Saddam was a evil dictator story?

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