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-- This is how you protest transit fare hikes!
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quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Youd be surprised how similar life is in both societies when it comes to economics. The difference is that in Canada we have more stability.

Sorry man, but i gotta scream BULLSHIT! on this one

there are no similarities

The truth is that the stinkin poor in Canada is way better off then the stinkin poor in any other 3rd world country. By a HUGE margin

Yes, canada has more stability, but that makes all the difference.

Like ive alreay pointed out... making 500 bucks a month down tehre is not bad at all! U can have a confortable leaving downthere.

Earnin minumwage here in cadanda, cosidering all the help u can get from the Government (ie. Loans, healthcare etc.) doesnt come close to teh misery of the people that earn minimun wage in Argentina, Brazil, India, Africa... or any other 3rdwold developing coutry.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Ok so we agree then.

on that, yes

i was talking about middle class..but yes the bottom rung of society (ie the unemployed) is much better off here than they are down there.

But students are usually middle class.

But remember we did have tent city here for a number of years which looked no better nor worse than the makeshift ghettos in many of these countries. The only difference is that in Canada we made them take it down.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 i was talking about middle class..but yes the bottom rung of society (ie the unemployed) is much better off here than they are down there. But students are usually middle class. But remember we did have tent city here for a number of years which looked no better nor worse than the makeshift ghettos in many of these countries. The only difference is that in Canada we made them take it down.

Yes, students are usually middle class. But give the pictures on the original argument i dont think those ppl were middle class.

And for the tent city, i doubt it was anything like the gettohs ive seen. And kickin the residents of such communities just doesnt work... Where would they go? U might say build them a place to live. That doesnt work. Quick history lesson: On the 60's, the government on Brazil built a project for victims of a huge flood that lefts many residents of such gettohs homeless. it had something like 7000 units. Pretty good eh? 40 years later it expanded to ~150000 residents making it one the biggest adn dangerous gettos in the country. U can watch a movie on it if u want, "City of God"... if u havent seen it, you shoud, its excellent.

Gots to run... Got an exam tomorrow that i mos def need to study for.

Hey everyone!
So here we go.
I'm a student in Canada, who takes the bus everywhere I have to go. Ok so let's see. I had to go to a co-op placement, which was located in scarborough. Besides the fact that I had to wake up in the middle of the night and catch the first subway to be there by 7 am, it would also take me about 1 hour and 45 minutes to get there, in the morning, but public transportation. On the way back in the afternoon it took me almost 2.5 hours. But ok, that's not the real point. I waste nearly 5 hours of my life that I could either be working, or whatever on my commute, because of the bus schedule that is never correct, because, well buses don't follow it. They show up when they show up.
So while I stand in blazing heat in the summer, or bloody cold in winter in those bus stops, most of the time having no where to hide from the wind, I also get sick. Which of course makes me miss hours and sometimes days of work, school whatever.
With the fare hike, they should at least be offering us something back. But has anyone seen what we've been offered? Personally I haven't.
The other thing. I do buy a metropass, because frankly, I can't pay 10 bucks a day if I need to use TTC more than once. And yes I'm a student who's being supported by my mother, because unfortunately, I physically can't handle a job, and no one will hire a full time student, who's not driving. Yes I've ran in to this. I didn't get the job because I did not have a car. And I can't afford to buy a car and pay insurance because I DON"T HAVE A DAMN JOB.
You wanna talk fair? where is it? where is the fairness?

Where I grew up, (yes I am Jayx's friend who grew up in Ukraine) our public transportation was 3 cents then it went to 5 cents, that was nothing because after that we didn't have to pay for government transit. However when I moved further into the bubrs I had to pay startin at 4000 coupons (ukrainian money at the time) which is about 3 dollars to take an express bus, the only regular public transit out of where my parents lived. After a while the 4000 turned into 8, 10, 15, and then 30000 for one way trip.
The prices grew, the salaries didn't. Just like everywhere.
And by the way if Ukrainians had to live with this kind of government I'm pretty sure there would be revolution there and the government would be forced to resign or they'd simply be killed. You've seen what's been going on during last year's presidential election.
Communism was a great idea in concept, but when you have a bunch of hicks running the country as great as USSR used to be, you run it down into the ground. The first bright, intelligent person in power, Gorbachev, was forced to resign, after his house in the south of the country was attacked by a bunch of idiots.....
I studied what communism is, was, was supposed to be. Great concept, everyone and everything equal. But think about it how realistic is that?


So anyways, if you still drive to work, or wherever, that means that you can still afford it. I unfortunately cannot afford another fare hike. BUt what am I gonna do? Nothing, just like everyone here, who has no other means of transportation, I suck it up, and take it. But then again, I do a lot of walking these days....

my two cents

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 I have a friend who grew up in the Ukraine that would diagree with you. You are right about multinationals though. They should adhere to the same work and safety standards as the country they originate. But pay isnt part of that. When you can live off of 1000 pesos a month why should a company be obligated to pay $3000 dollars a month? Communism (repressing people's freedom) is not the answer to anything and people like you scare the hell out of me. Go live under communism and then report back to me about what a utopian society it is. Socialism breeds laziness and lack of incentive. Humans by nature are greedy. Socialism fails to take this in to account. If you can never get ahead or fall behind no matter what you why should you care about the work you do? The answer is you dont.

Being from the Ukraine doesn't qualify somebody to be a credible source on communism. Said person may have gotten their free education in biochemistry, and found it frustrating that they couldn't earn the big bucks for their hard earned study. That makes it totally different from the people who in the Ukraine now are very poor, and yearn for the days of communism that provided food on their table and clean water into their homes. And believe me, there are many people in these former communist nations that wish communism to return. You can't please everybody.

But my point isn't about limiting freedom but self sufficiency. Creating a socialist environment would boost a country that is lagging behind by a large margin in comparison to the first world.

In the film Corporation, which I am sure you have seen, they show a south american nation (I think it might have been Nicaragua as well) that had a privatized, San Francisco based water company. The government sold the water company to the americans, and the americans increased the cost of water. Once again cost of living went up when wages stayed the same, and the people took to the streets. They rioted, used violence, and eventually took over the water system. The people took back the water and provided it to everybody in the name of helping society and not in the name of profit.

And that is the issue. Profit. These nations cannot afford to have their hard earned money flow out of their hands into american hands. They cannot afford to have people profit off them.

Communism has it's flaws, but at least everybody eats and drinks clean water in a society where the government actually looks out for its poor rather than cashing out by selling vital infastructures to rich american corporations.

My argument states that in their situation, communism (no the best situation) is still a better situation than they have now.


Karim

Where in Scarborough do you work? Cause I do the long ass commute to Scarborough every morning too *bah*

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 And for the record, there are as many middle class people there as there are here.

I'd love to see a source on this, considering it's being put on record.


Karim

quote:

Originally posted by karim Being from the Ukraine doesn't qualify somebody to be a credible source on communism.

Ok so what does then?

What qualifies you?

quote:

Originally posted by karim Being from the Ukraine doesn't qualify somebody to be a credible source on communism. Said person may have gotten their free education in biochemistry, and found it frustrating that they couldn't earn the big bucks for their hard earned study. That makes it totally different from the people who in the Ukraine now are very poor, and yearn for the days of communism that provided food on their table and clean water into their homes. And believe me, there are many people in these former communist nations that wish communism to return. You can't please everybody. But my point isn't about limiting freedom but self sufficiency. Creating a socialist environment would boost a country that is lagging behind by a large margin in comparison to the first world. In the film Corporation, which I am sure you have seen, they show a south american nation (I think it might have been Nicaragua as well) that had a privatized, San Francisco based water company. The government sold the water company to the americans, and the americans increased the cost of water. Once again cost of living went up when wages stayed the same, and the people took to the streets. They rioted, used violence, and eventually took over the water system. The people took back the water and provided it to everybody in the name of helping society and not in the name of profit. And that is the issue. Profit. These nations cannot afford to have their hard earned money flow out of their hands into american hands. They cannot afford to have people profit off them. Communism has it's flaws, but at least everybody eats and drinks clean water in a society where the government actually looks out for its poor rather than cashing out by selling vital infastructures to rich american corporations. My argument states that in their situation, communism (no the best situation) is still a better situation than they have now. Karim

Dude, education? FREE? Do you know that I couldn't even get into University of my choice, because my mom didn't have 10000 dollars US to pay for the bribe to the examination committee? Mind you I graduated Highschool with a perfect diploma. Oh and the other thing, every good or excellent grade, even a C back there would cost you money. So How's that normal? How's that a better solution?
You're mistaking communism with dictatorship that we had while the government attempted to build a utopian society. How can you have Utopia when people live in fear?
During that "better" solution, the crime rates were higher than they are now. So believe you me, they're rebuilding the country from the ground up. Hopefully they'll be successful.

quote:

Originally posted by starsearcher Where in Scarborough do you work? Cause I do the long ass commute to Scarborough every morning too *bah*

I don't anymore, it was a co-op part of school. It was Lawrence and Birchmount.

quote:

Originally posted by karim I'd love to see a source on this, considering it's being put on record. Karim

It also depends on what u consider middle class.

Socialists usually consider middle class to have a much lower income than capitalists.

It's a subjective term. To me middle class means you have enough money to pay for food, shelter clothes and transportation. Any more than that is a bonus and any less is poor.

You see for a capitalist i have a pretty socialist view on what makes someone rich or poor.

PS: Karim, Nicaragua is actually a NORTH AMERICAN country, not a south american one.

eeerrmmm...i don't know what you guys are talking about (regard communism in Ukraine) but that to me sounds like a lotta BS

Life in Russia - or USSR back then was really not THAT bad at all

quote:

Originally posted by starsearcher eeerrmmm...i don't know what you guys are talking about (regard communism in Ukraine) but that to me sounds like a lotta BS Life in Russia - or USSR back then was really not THAT bad at all

Really????
when did you leave? and WHY?

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 You are right about multinationals though. They should adhere to the same work and safety standards as the country they originate. But pay isnt part of that. When you can live off of 1000 pesos a month why should a company be obligated to pay $3000 dollars a month?

Companies in Canada and the first world also train their employees with valuable skills. Many even provide education funds and benefits to help improve society. These multinational corporations overseas do not. In many cases, they feed amphetamines to their employees and put them into 14 hour work days 7 days a week. Here's your bowl of rice, now get back to work. Deplorable working conditions that these multinationals are responsible. And even if these factories do not belong to the corporation itself, the fact that they outsource labour to these factories is wrong. Until we create a system where people can clearly identify labour practices with the product (some type of seal on the shoe box from a trusted NGO that inspects workplace conditions to ensure they meet standards) then the situation will not improve. Until then, we in the first world will enjoy paying our $80 for shoes that costed them $3 to make, and Nike will be laughing all the way to the bank, at the expense of the 3rd world.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Communism (repressing people's freedom) is not the answer to anything and people like you scare the hell out of me. Go live under communism and then report back to me about what a utopian society it is.

It's not a utopia by any means, it's better than the way many nations are operating now. Communism was flawed when it's world leaders wanted to rule the world. Their vision of an efficient society where nobody starved was skewed. Idealy, a free society with plenty of social benefits would be a utopia, however such a utopia doesn't come free, and none of these nations can afford it. THE COST OF FEEDING EVERYBODY IS CONTROLLING EVERY ASPECT OF THEIR MARKET TO MAKE SURE THE WEALTH IS DISTRIBUTED IN A WAY THAT AFFORDS EVERYBODY AT LEAST A STANDARD OF LIVING. That is communism. The capitalism that is raping these nations is ignoring the very poor.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Socialism breeds laziness and lack of incentive. Humans by nature are greedy. Socialism fails to take this in to account. If you can never get ahead or fall behind no matter what you why should you care about the work you do? The answer is you dont.

If everyone in a socialist society works hard, the benefits are shown in long term prosperity. People in this very rushed society care about instant results, and that's not how it works in socialism. People working together for the sake of them and their neighbours rather than for themselves.

Bring a poor nation up to a certain standard, where you have efficient markets, and qualified workers and then let it compete in capitalist society. China's trying this by creating free market hot spots. Of course China has alot of poverty and ghetto's, but that is the situation when you have over a billion people for the government to take care of.

I personally love free markets, and the luxuries and opportunities that it affords me. My argument stems on me being convinced that some of these developing countries would be better off if they made themselves self sufficient, because as it stands, they aren't getting much better, and the gap between them and the first world is growing at an alarming rate.


Karim

quote:

Originally posted by ~Delicious~ Dude, education? FREE? Do you know that I couldn't even get into University of my choice, because my mom didn't have 10000 dollars US to pay for the bribe to the examination committee? Mind you I graduated Highschool with a perfect diploma. Oh and the other thing, every good or excellent grade, even a C back there would cost you money. So How's that normal? How's that a better solution? You're mistaking communism with dictatorship that we had while the government attempted to build a utopian society. How can you have Utopia when people live in fear? During that "better" solution, the crime rates were higher than they are now. So believe you me, they're rebuilding the country from the ground up. Hopefully they'll be successful.

Poland, when communist, had free education to qualified students. Or minimal cost which didn't break the bank.


Karim

quote:

Originally posted by ~Delicious~ Really???? when did you leave? and WHY?

I moved to Israel with my family when I was really young...like 6-7 years old. Why - well my grandfather is Jewish and it was a big deal for him when the doors opened to move to Israel so most of my family (his brothers and etc) did too.

In fact I'm not really sure if things are better at all now than what they were before. Now there is a very small group of extremely corrupt people that are holding the majority of power (both financial and sometimes political) in the country...

In fact Putin just the other day said that the collapse of the Soviet Union is "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century"...and although he's an ex KGB weasel, and you never know what he's really up to...he's probabbly right about that.

Anyway bottom line is - I don't know about Ukraine but things were never as bad as some might describe here back in the days of the USSR.

The gap between developing nations and the industrialized world is closing. Look to china, india, and may parts of south america for proof of this. In fact the reason why gas prices are so high is because of the rapid growth in india and asia.

As for china, many people died and suffered under mao and its only by opening the doors to multinationals that they have managed to grow richer. In fact it wasnt long ago that the sweat shops you mention were actually in china. They probably do still exist somewhat but there is no denying that china is emerging from poverty thanks to capitalism.

As i said socialism doesnt work because people desire to get ahead. Greed is a human trait that is not factored into socialism.

quote:

Originally posted by karim Poland, when communist, had free education to qualified students. Or minimal cost which didn't break the bank. Karim

But living in poland doesnt qualify you to be an expert on communism

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Ok so what does then? What qualifies you?

The study of political science and various sources I have read. Doesn't make me fully qualified, but it does provide me the opportunity to present an argument with at least some merit.

I pointed out your "I have a friend from..." point in your argument because more often then not, in arguments, this doesn't necessarily constitute a strong one. Not specific to ~Delicious~, but many times, the "I know somebody that..." statement holds very little credibility. I've seen an entire documentary on people in russia who are in worse shape now after the fall of communism, that have a very positive impression of communism.

~Delicious~, you might have a certain impression on communism, but there are people who share your background but don't share your views.


Karim

Gas prices have nothing to do with developments in Asia...gas prices are controlled by OPEC who do as they please to influence nations and world events

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 PS: Karim, Nicaragua is actually a NORTH AMERICAN country, not a south american one.

Then I'm sure the country in the movie was Equador. I remember them mentioning a south american nation, however the name slipped my mind.


Karim

quote:

Originally posted by karim The study of political science and various sources I have read. Doesn't make me fully qualified, but it does provide me the opportunity to present an argument with at least some merit. I pointed out your "I have a friend from..." point in your argument because more often then not, in arguments, this doesn't necessarily constitute a strong one. Not specific to ~Delicious~, but many times, the "I know somebody that..." statement holds very little credibility. I've seen an entire documentary on people in russia who are in worse shape now after the fall of communism, that have a very positive impression of communism. ~Delicious~, you might have a certain impression on communism, but there are people who share your background but don't share your views. Karim

thats because opinion varys about everything in every society. Her views are no less valid then yours. And just because you have some degree doesnt exactly qualify you either. Life experience is what counts and people speak from their experiences.

While i respect your opinion i simply dont agree with them based on my life experience and neither does delicious and i suspect most of the rest of the world. Communism had it's day and it failed miserably.

quote:

Originally posted by starsearcher Gas prices have nothing to do with developments in Asia...gas prices are controlled by OPEC who do as they please to influence nations and world events

funny u should say that:

quote:

India, China account for high oil prices: [ TUESDAY, APRIL 26, 2005 09:02:40 PM ] WASHINGTON: India is moving center-front with China in the world's geo-strategic and economic discourse. Lubricated by their rising oil and energy consumption, the elephant and the dragon are being invoked together repeatedly in political and economic discussions, even though the gap between them is significant. President Bush was waiting for the Saudi Crown Prince Abdulla at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, on Monday when he bantered with the media eager to know the agenda of the meeting at a time when gas prices in the U.S has become a matter of everyday chatter. "Sir, do you think gas prices will be any lower than it is today?" a correspondent asked him amid nationwide huffing at gas prices that now average $ 2.25 per gallon price (about Rs 27 per litre). "That depends on the supply and demand," Bush, who once dallied in the oil sector before entering politics, said. "One thing is for certain: The price of crude is driving the price of gasoline. The price of crude is up because not only is our economy growing, but economies such as India and China's economies are growing." In economic discussions in the US, one often hears of the scorching growth rates of China and India as the top reason for high crude prices - a sentiment that has shades of envy, concern and admiration. "India is increasingly linked with China as the two bellwethers of the world's economic and geopolitical future," the investment agency Moody's said in a report released Monday. This, despite the fact that India and China account for only 3 per cent and 6 per cent respectively of the global oil consumption, compared to the more than 20 per cent that the US uses. Demand in the U.S is mostly driven by the addiction of its consumers to cheap gas to fuel thier humongous SUVs (mini-trucks masquerading as cars). Despite a slowdown SUVs account for nearly 25 per cent all vehicular sales. Although the American intelligentsia has begun to realize this ("We have met the enemy, and he is us," one newspaper editorialized recently), there is still a knee-jerk tendency to point at China and India every time the subject of crude oil prices comes up. Besides, consumption rates in India and China are going up by 8 per cent annually compared to less than 5 per cent in the US. While the booming economies of China and India mean cheaper goods and services for the US, Americans are also looking askance at the latest growth forecast for the two countries issued on Monday by the United Nations Economic and Social Commission for Asia and Pacific (ESCAP): 7.2 per cent for India and 8.5 per cent for China. Not that they wish it was any less or lower. At Crawford, Bush, whose approval rating have been slipping rapidly, is said to urged long term measures, including higher oil production. "A high oil price will damage markets, and he knows that," Bush told reporters, in remarks that held good for the US, China and India.

The only problem with this article is that it ignores speculators as well. Any sign of a decrease in availabilty is just as good as an actual shortage when it comes to futures prices on the cost of oil.

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