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-- Heaven Returns- A Review
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I think Heaven's idea of allowing 18+ in after 1:30 is an excellent idea. We all know it's a major struggle to have a club promotion be 18+. As of now Heaven is going to be 21+ like it used to be. This is a nice compromise. SVG is right, that it will break up some groups, but this is the best compromise that will accommodate almost everybody. 21+ groups can go in earlier on their own, and 21 under can just come later. 21 under groups still get to check out the healiner. Heaven is probably having to pay the headliners extra to spin for 3 hrs as opposed to 2hrs and if Heaven can have the club stay open till 5AM that would really be an accomplishement. It may suck a bit in cordinating some of the groups, but at least 21 under is not left out. That's more than you can say for any of the decent clubs/promotions in the LA area. I personally like the energy that the younger club goers bring to the events. This would keep the club bumping till late.
What would you rather have, 21+ only or 18+ after 1:30 ?
Once again, I think it's a great compromise/resolution.

The under 21 would get no exposure to the resident dj's such as Kristina Sky. Its important to support your local dj's whenever you can. I personally would find it a pain in the ass if I had to wait til 1:30am before I could get into the club with my girlfriend, as opposed to getting in around 10pm, and missing all of the opening acts. I had 40 people on my guestlist that showed up from Santa Barbara. That is a 110 mile trek. Some were under 21 and some were over 21. Thats 40 people that I got to drive 110 miles to see such an awesome event. Changing up the age limit and the hours I think would suck ass and prevent me from organizing carpools and what not to come to the club with all my peeps from Santa Barbara. I am not in support of it.

People are complaining about how having Heaven be an 18+ event is bringing the wrong crowd...I think regardless of the age limit of the club, you are always going to have the bad crowd. Its the type of music that we listen to. Theres always going to be the bad apples as long as you have this type of music. The drugs are always going to be there. No matter what you do.

quote:

Originally posted by fupaking My personal opinion is that I will not attend a club that is 18+. If it's a rock concert or a festival, then I am ok with it...but not in a nightclub. No offense to anyone on the board, but I feel that there are too many people in that age group who are not mature enough to make responsible choices, such as with drugs and alcohol. Note, I am not labeling that whole age group. I am sure there are plenty of responsible people in that age group on this board, it just tends that there are more of them that ruin it for all of you. I don't enjoy tripping over messed up kids or getting hit up for drugs or alcohol. I was immature at that age, too, but I'm just sayin'...

Some of my worst clubbing experiences have been at 21+ events because a lot of adults simply can not make responsible choices when it comes to drugs and alcohol. I am talking about when I have gone to Spundae in LA and SF (Circus Disco, Henry Fonda Theater, 1015 Folsom), Club Heaven @ Arena (when it was 21+), and Giant @ Avalon. I don't enjoy getting elbowed in the head by E'd out older asian couples. I don't enjoy all the times I've had alcohol spilled on me out on the dance floor. I've been hit up for drugs MANY times at 21+ events. This last Heaven event was a more pleasant experience compared to the last few Spundae events I had gone to.

Perhaps there could be a mini-venue the 18-21 year olds could go to from 9pm-130am?

There is a fundemental problem with the 18+ concept, in that many big name DJs are not interested in playing at clubs that they view as being full of candy ravers. I've had chats with a several and they all prefer playing at branded clubs (ie. Godskitchen, Spundae etc) who have supported them. This is an issue that Heaven will have to work out in the long run. My view is that they need to set up the club to bring in bigger and more respected DJs, and that means doing it properly by building a brand, marketing, and ultimately catering to people who spend money.

As I mentioned before, I like the 18+ crowd that tends to go the older "more mature" events. A great example for LA was Tiesto last summer in June. The 2nd show on Sunday, which was 18+, had a better crowd and Tiesto fed off it. Nevertheless, Heaven will probably be 21 over, so at least that offers some compromise. Yup, it would suck for some and create logistical difficulties, but it's better than nothing. I agree that it owuld cool to support the openers, but you can't have everything. Without people paying to get in, there won't even be an opportunity for the openers.
The mini-venue may be an idea. Use the house room for that. Maybe Heaven can explore that idea.

quote:

Originally posted by clubheaven Oh, I hope last week nobody complain about the sound any more. To me the sound we bring last week was fucking amazing, really cloud and clear and you still talk.

The sound was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too loud. I wear ear plugs everytime I go out and even then my ears had a slight ring. Everyone that I talked too was complaining about the sound too loud. There is not even a hint of safe sound in that venue. Of course I dont think the design of the place is made for that but we need to take into consideration the volume level of tolerable and insanity. Friday sound = insanity.

It was a tad loud. A simple fix.

quote:

Originally posted by HALO555 As I mentioned before, I like the 18+ crowd that tends to go the older "more mature" events. A great example for LA was Tiesto last summer in June. The 2nd show on Sunday, which was 18+, had a better crowd and Tiesto fed off it.

I was there for that. That night was so much fun. Had that event not been 18+, I would not have been able to experience one of the best nights of my life seeing DJ Tiesto with one of my bestfriends.

quote:

Originally posted by Hypersky There is a fundemental problem with the 18+ concept, in that many big name DJs are not interested in playing at clubs that they view as being full of candy ravers. I've had chats with a several and they all prefer playing at branded clubs (ie. Godskitchen, Spundae etc) who have supported them. This is an issue that Heaven will have to work out in the long run. My view is that they need to set up the club to bring in bigger and more respected DJs, and that means doing it properly by building a brand, marketing, and ultimately catering to people who spend money.

The best thing in a marketing sense for Heaven would be to keep the club 18+ because the 18-20 year olds is a huge market. They are going to come to the event and are going to get hooked. They will support Heaven over the years. This would be the club they will continue to come to even after they turned 21. Its all about building a dedicated following right? I liken this to cigarettes....some kids start off with them early on and are hooked for the rest of their lives...making the cigarette companies RICH!!!

Like I mentioned before, the 21+ clubs are still full of candy ravers. Its the type of music we listen to. There is no getting rid of that problem.

Big name DJ's don't only have fans that are 21+. They have fans of all ages and I think it is bullshit if they wouldn't want to perform for ALL their fans.

quote:

Originally posted by SVGmethod The best thing in a marketing sense for Heaven would be to keep the club 18+ because the 18-20 year olds is a huge market. They are going to come to the event and are going to get hooked. They will support Heaven over the years. This would be the club they will continue to come to even after they turned 21. Its all about building a dedicated following right? I liken this to cigarettes....some kids start off with them early on and are hooked for the rest of their lives...making the cigarette companies RICH!!! Like I mentioned before, the 21+ clubs are still full of candy ravers. Its the type of music we listen to. There is no getting rid of that problem. Big name DJ's don't only have fans that are 21+. They have fans of all ages and I think it is bullshit if they wouldn't want to perform for ALL their fans.

I agree with this to an extent. There is a massive market in the 18-21 range, but again, you would have trouble getting the bigger names booked because they don't want to play at venues with a disproportionate amount of kids. I speak from personal experience, as I was recently in talks with a big DJ to have him come to LA, and he told me he would only play at Godskitchen or Spundae. Obviously in an ideal world this wouldn't be a problem, but given that this is the case with alot of DJs, I think it would be wise for Heaven to consider a 21+ night to build up the brand. They could also do a concurrent 18+ night at a different venue to support more local DJs under a different club night - thus simultaneously hitting all age groups without one or the other feeling like they are getting the short end of the bargin.

Heaven started out as 21+. They built up the brand. Changed to 18+. Further built up the brand. Heaven is the place to go for the 18+. Heaven wants to build up the brand more but cut out the market out that enabled it to grow into what it is now? Make up your mind Heaven.

Re: Heaven Returns- A Review

hey TAs, kristina sky here

All of my text is embedded within SweetCandys original post.

my responses are marked with the *******

and i am responding to the statements I put in quotes.


check it out below

ksky

quote:

Originally posted by sweetcandy girl "I get to the club a little after 10 with Kris there was a pretty long line by the Trailer but with no direction. It took awile to seprate the lines to 3. Then after that it took forever to get threw it. One of the issues was that they person behind the window was checking the names and takeing the money at the same time. At Area we got our tickets and then paied. That made the line a lot faster. Then it was off to wait in another line. All together. VIP people had to wait as long as the GA people. I belive in treating everyone equaly but if I bought a VIP ticket for the event I would expect to go threw faster." **** Sorry for the hassle. This is something Leon and I have already discussed and of course we will try and remedy it as quickly as possible. Like you said, it was the first event at a new venue, new staff new rules etc... & It will take a bit to work out the kinks. ***** "The Sound was awful! It was too loud and there where only a few select areas that it sounded good. The air was also an issue. There where only a few select spots for that too. Iroically it was the area's of the best sound. " *****we are working on the sound, in the next few events we will have the same sound as ICE does and its going to rock your face off. sorry for the loudness, trust me I feel ya, I was having a whole world of sound issues all my own up there on stage when I was playing. my best suggestion to any of the peeps who do think sound is too loud at a venue or shitty, is to just find someone on the staff at the venue and ask them who the sound person is. A lot of these sound problems can be tweaked throughout the night, but if no one is telling anyone that can actually do something about it, then nothing can be done. It seems like a pian in the ass to have to let someone know, but if it means that the sound will get better because they have been made aware, then ultimately that will make you have a better nite. ******** " I went up stairs to check out the house room which was a dark room it was a Joke The Decks where palced on some bricks and some wood. Pretty Getto imo. And the sound up there was awful! ICK." ***** the house room is a work in progress, sorry it wasnt the best on friday but it will get better again with time. not to mention most of us on here are trance heads so the house room shouldnt affect us. i mean, we are there for the main room, so that room is actually for a different crowd. Just dont go up into the lions den til we fix it up ******** "I also went to check out the smokeing patio. It was the same as before but you could not clime up the second set of steps. Nothing speical." ******************************************************************************************* Yes the patio was the same as before in the amount of space blocked off to use, but they did decorate it a bit with the bamboo stuff and torches etc... The reason the other part of the area was closed off is because it is simply too massive. had we opened it up it would have just been a huge open space with people scattered around and being cliquey, couples makin out in corners, etc... having a smaller more cozy space is more effective for a club because it puts people together and forces more intereaction i.e. bummin a cig from the kid next to you, makin the move on the hotty over there, lol etc... and even all that aside, something i would really like to ask all of you... what is so different between the small narrow outdoor smoking area we had (which wasnt really THAT small) and the crack alley smoking area at the Oh So Lovely Avalon?? cuz i just dont see much of one, lol. bottom line, arena and circus have the best outdoor smoking areas in l.a. cant win em all :-( **************************************** "It was nice haveing the Bar downstairs where you could be with the music and Drink but it looked like a cull barn for cattle. A metel gate and red rope seperated us from the others. I like the Vissuals buy the bar though, and there was plunty of room to chill." ****************************** I agree this is kinda weird, but its just the way it has to be right now... every club has its downside.. but i will point out that the 80,000 people that attend Coachella every year don't seem to mind the 21+ corral **************************************** "There have been some changes made to the Q instead of sitting on the cold concreat floor there where nice palces to sit a long the wall. Giving it a more club like appeal. " ******************************************** yeah, you have to admit there was a shitload of leather couches in there and that def made it nicer. the ones along the wall were cool too, the big ass ottomans. **************************************** "Now for the music- The best set of the night belongs to... Kristina Sky!! Why was her set only an hour I do not know she needs 2!!! I loved her hour though " ******************************** wow, thanks girl, thata big compliment and im really glad you enjoyed the set. i know your a tough sell so it means a lot to me. I'm sorry i didn't play longer, you know I wnated to, but it just isnt how the night panned out. I did get to close for ACOSTA when he decided to stop playing at 330. Dont know if you were there, but it was a really fun 30 min **************************************** "When Taylor got up you could tell the energy went down hill. He started off slow. There was no soul or felling beind his music and tracks. No one was really dancing just standing there trying to figure out what they should try to do.I walked around takeing picturs and when I ran into my friends all they could say was.."This guy is boring" or "I am not feeling this guy at all" He picked it up for the last half hour and played "Mr. Brightside" That got the crowd to actully move and dance. Now for Accosta- It is really hard to put into words to tell you how BAD is set was. Like I said in the other thead he was a mess!! He did not mix clean at all. He was all over the place. Like Typical Accosta he would play hard energy banging tracks and hit ya with something mellow and then back to hard again. There was no flow and direction to his set. It was so Bad!!! " ******************************** I'm gonna have to say no comment on this one. I was running around all night and definitely did not experience these other DJs like you guys did on the floor, but I felt Acosta did what he came to do and despite everyting said about him and against him, he seemed to pull the numbers in. I think he knows exactly what HIS crowd wants and maybe that is why you werent feeling his set, because you are not a fan. He definitely plays an old skool trance sound mixed with a harder edge and faster BPM, which may make some tracks seem harder than they actually are. He dropped the tunes that crowds love, i.e. delerium- silence , PLanet Soul etc.. I guess he didnt win ya over, but thats ok, better luck next time **************************************** "The Vibe- I love Heaven don't get me worng. I miss Arena. The vibe here at the Vangard was the old tecknotibe vibe. Candykids, light shows and Dance circles. I felt like I was at a mini rave and not a club It felt like the majory of the people where on something. That is fine by me but it was very very odvious. The vibe was differnt. But then again it was the growd that Accosta tends to bring... " *************************************** I miss Arena too, we all do.. but we gotta just make do with what we got. I'll quote my boy dave matthews on this one... See, you and me Have a better time than most can dream Have it better than the best And so can pull on through Whatever tears at us Whatever holds us down And if nothing can be done We'll make the best of what's around Turns out not where but who you're with That really matters... as long as each group goes with goodfriends then it should be fun no matter what. and sorry to burst the bubble because I know a lot of people on here are pissed about these "dance circles" and "light shows" etc... but... If you have ever walked in to the back of the main room at spundae on almost any given night(minus the pure house nights).. what do you see?? dance circles, glow sticks, light shows, fucked up people, peeps in puddles etc... i mean, it is not some new thing that just happened at Heaven. We listen to trance music and glow gear and dancing like that, well, whether people like it or not, its part of the trance culture and history and personally i am glad to see that some people are still keeping that part alive. not to mention that these acts really have no real reflection on who these people are. dancing is an art form. it is one of the main reasons why we do what we do and why we are in the scene we are in. more power to anyone who comes to a club and feels comfortable enough to express themselves through dancing, regardless of what type of dancing. who are you or I to get down on people who dance, even if it is with a glow accessory? its not like those people are forcing their evil ways upon us.. they are just doing their thing... and I also find that the majority of these people are really really into the music and the night and bring a good energy. the majority of people prolly WERE on something, and we have all been part of that majority one time or another. A HUGE Majority of people at avalon are on coke but no one seems to bitch about that.. maybe because coke is more "acceptabel" more "mature" or "high class" ? I dunno.. drugs are drugs and clubs are clubs. this is nothing new and nothing that should come as a surprise. it was a grand opening night at a new location and i do think people use that type of thing as an excuse to go "all out" i'm sure it will settle down. ************************************************************************ "The Bathrooms- OFG!! Is there anyone takeing care of them!!! WTF No TP no Seat covers and they smelt worse then an outhouse. EWWW EWWW!!" ************************************ errr.. im sorry about that and so is the rest of the heaven crew. again, that was just one of the kinks. now we know and we will fix that asap. itll smell better, be cleaner and be better equipped ASAP **************************************** "The Staff- Since I was at a new venue it was time to get to know a new staff. I have to hand it to them I found them to be really nice!! Much better then what they had a the Q. Much much better!! :" ************************************* I agree with you, the staff was really cool for the most part and I think it has a lot to do with not being under the most insane surviellance(sp?) ever like at circus and arena. that is a lot of pressure on those staff workes feeling like they were constantly being watched. there is a more relaxed environment at Vanguard and these guys seem really cool so far. ******************************** "Over all I had a great time..What made this a great night for me was hanging out with all of My friends and danceing with them! I also met some really cool new people. That totlay made a new vibe and zone for me Welcome Back Heaven. I know this was opeaning night and the kinks will be worked out and I know my Memorial Day weekend the venune will compleaty done ( 3 more renavations are still in the works)I took a lot of amazing fun picutrs last night.. But I will post them after my Disco nap """ ******************************************* cool, well in the end after all your bitching you had fun j/k but for real, thanks for the review, we will do our best to take care of this stuff. i really think all in all this was a nice nite. i did see a lot of new faces and personally i like that because it means a chance to make new friends and for me it also means I can play my music to new ears. the pics look great and i really appreciate everyone who captured memories from that night for us. thanks to taylor and george for coming out. a huge thank you to every single body that showed up to support us after what has been a very rough couple of months. we really needed that support and you guys showed us so much of it. this could be one of the longest posts ever aside from micheles initital review.. so I will end this one here. im gonna keep going thru the thread and comment on everyone else too. ************************************************

Kristina, your sky has so much sunshine You're the best!

quote:

Originally posted by DaveT I personally hate with a prog DJ opens for a trance DJ and makes no effort to lead his set appropriately into trance. I hate when I go out on nights with this setup and the floor will be dead because the crowd is there for the trance and not for the prog stuff. The floor can even be full but very few people will be dancing because they just don't want that crap. I get the feeling that Taylor is this type of DJ...not just from most of the accounts i'm hearing about last night, but from other nights at other places as well. The sad thing is, though, that while lots of crowds tend to hate this setup, major headlining trance DJs are often against the DJ before him playing trance....and thus promoters are scared to book opening trance DJs. There's very few DJ who know how to start with prog and lead into edgy trance properly that seems to make the crowd happy and the headlining DJ happen...one of them that does it proper is Gianni up here in SF. I still consider him the best local trance opener around here...and better than anyone I've heard down in LA thus far, too. The man is beautiful at pumping up the music just right to get the crowd to be way into it right when the headliner is set to come on. Wish more openers were like him.

wow dave, you are my brother from another mother I think, lol.

you could not have put to words any better some of the thoughts I have sometimes about this topic.

i have this battle in my head all the time, since I am one of these opening djs you speak of.

when opening for trance headliners at heaven, i tried to play proggy to proggy trance and then move into some more melodic lower bpm trance to try and lead in to the headliner.

i agree with you 1000% on hating openers that have nothing to do with the genre i am there to hear.

but as you said, sadly enough, it works exactly the opposite way on the business side of things.

as a dj i am constantly thinking, ok, the clubbers wanna hear this, but the promoter would like me to play this.. and its tough to choose a side sometimes.

because in my eyes ultimately all that SHOULD mater is what the people on the floor want, not what the guy after mewants or the promoter etc...

a very successful dj/producer once told me that warm up djs should not worry about what they are going to play too much, and that they should just play what they do best, play their hearts out and do their thing, because a HEADLINER should be able to outshine ANY warm up DJ, that is why they are the HEADLINER.

He told me if a headliner cant put on a show after a really good warm up dj, then they should not be a headliner.

Now, I'm not saying anyone has to agree with thi.

Im just throwin it out there because it did ring a lot of truth.

Doesnt change the politcal rules or aspect of it.. but if you break it down to its purest form..

DJs are supposed to do what they do to play the best tunes possible to as many people as they can.

I find that it is a very hard mission to be on, when as a warm up DJ you are made to feel like you have to play down, and play "worse" than you normally would, or perform less than you normally would, or play a different style than your chosen genre.

whatever, i could go on forever..

i guess in the end its about finding some balance.. but that is so much easier said than done.

...

anyway, random.

ive heard of gianni but still have not had a chance to see him. im curious now.

ok, thats that.

we missed u at the club dave.

ur good vibes.

I thought Hoj (?) did a good job of opening up for JOOF on new years day at 1015.

Re: PICTURE TIME

quote:

Originally posted by Global-Trance Well well. Finally I get around to doing this! I took a bunch of pictures at Heaven last night and I think I would like to share it with the people here. Many thanks to Leon for letting me take pictures. I had a blast at Heaven and will try to make it as many Heaven events as possible. KICKED IT A BIT WITH KRISTINA SKY! I took a ton of pics, but these are the only ones that I thought turned out decent. I'm still trying to get to know my camera a bit better... hard to focus in on stuff when it's dark. In either case, I had tons of fun... hearing the Mr. Brightside remix got me crazy and the whole night just progressively more fun as the night went on.

thank you so much for taking the photos on Fri.

its really cool when we get to see these pictures because so many people at the club have cameras and take pictures all night but we never get to see most of them because no ne shares

and we are so busy running around that we dont have the chance to alwasy take pics of every event.

anyway thank you thank you thank you

glad you had fun and u better come back soon!

quote:

Originally posted by GodMadeTrance I didn't get to see all of his set, but what I saw I really liked. There was one track that he spun that I still remember but can't find!

what track???

quote:

Originally posted by St. Michael Kristina, your sky has so much sunshine You're the best!

are u being sarcastic with me mister?

quote:

Originally posted by fupaking My personal opinion is that I will not attend a club that is 18+. If it's a rock concert or a festival, then I am ok with it...but not in a nightclub. No offense to anyone on the board, but I feel that there are too many people in that age group who are not mature enough to make responsible choices, such as with drugs and alcohol. Note, I am not labeling that whole age group. I am sure there are plenty of responsible people in that age group on this board, it just tends that there are more of them that ruin it for all of you. I don't enjoy tripping over messed up kids or getting hit up for drugs or alcohol (as what happened to me consistently at the Chem Bros concert Friday). I was immature at that age, too, but I'm just sayin'... I have only been to Heaven once, since I live in SF, so maybe my opinion doesn't count as much, but if I am in LA on a weekend, I won't be choosing to spend my Friday night at a 18+ club, that is going to draw more 21-, and less 21+ because of it. Also I don't enjoy not being able to enjoy my beverage wherever I chose in the club, if that is the case. Sorry just me 2 cents Leon.

there are just as many irresponsible adults as there are peple in that age group.

they are just irresponsible in different ways sometimes.

but in any case the ratio of that age group at heaven to the 21+ group is very small...

and as a music lover, you would miss one of your favorite djs just because of that samll group?

i dont get it...

it isnt like dance music is big here that we get the opportunity to see these people play often...

if i didnt work at heaven and if i wasnt resident dj, i would still be going to every single heaven event because i am trance. and heaven is trance.

and there is barely anything around like it that brings these artists, even with avalon and spundae combined for trance events in a year, there still arent that many opporunities compared to other regions of the world.

ill take what i can get for now and just skip stones off the puddles and move on.

i mean really...

how long has it been since you or I or many others on this board were 20?

not very long most likely...

its not like they are little kids.

these are people that can vote.

people that can drive.

people that can choose to smoke.

but we aren't ok with them coming to a club and partying with us? dancing? listening to music?

i mean, all of a sudden.. i am starting to feel like we are back to the rosa parks days...

...
..
.

anyway, no offense to you at all(fupaking), just my piece.

this has been a topic on these boards for long before your post, just thought i would jump in now

quote:

Originally posted by GodMadeTrance I hope that the club doesn't have to go back to being 21+, every time I bring more of my 18+ friends to it they have loved it and want to go back asap. Thanks for your efforts to bring the music to everyone Leon, and all the other Club Heaven crew!

u rock for spreading the word.

the 18+ are the 21+ of the future and we most definitely need you guys!

any club would be silly to not realize the longterm value of somehow embracing that age group so that they could develop it.

quote:

Originally posted by starboy I only got to see Kristina do her thing behind the decks for a short while after GA, and i have to be honest... i was really fucked up @ that point and don't really remember. But i do remember meeting her, very cute, and she gave me one of her mixes, ive heard it a couple times so far and love it! great track selection and great transitions.

lol about how fucked up you were...

hahahah what if your parents just randomly found this thread and found out that their little boy was actually starboy on TA and he was just too fucked up to remember hahahhahahahahhah

anyway, lol, glad you got to listen to my mix and that you are enjoying it.

theres a bunch of other sets for download on my site.

hope you get to come back to the club soon.

we love havin the outta state flavor up in the mix!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Th3On3 Personally I had a great night and I'm glad Club Heaven is back, and like sweetcandy girl said, GA wasn't the best but its certainly better than silence. My favorite part of the night by far was Kristina Sky (PvD - Crush hit me pretty hard lol), save the best for last I guess.

hey we are glad to be back

and im glad you came back.

thank you soooo much for the insanely kind words about my short but sweet sets.

it was a tough call what to play for the few minutes I was given after acosta went off..

but i went with my heart and knew acosta had worked the room pretty hard so i figured it was pointless to try and bring it up even more...

when i came on he was playing at 145 bpm

so i just slowed it down just a bit and brought the volume which was blasting and distorting down a little bit and rocked a few tracks i thought would be nice for your ears.

i dropped Crush because i have a very very rare version and i loooooove hearing it on big systems, so i wanted to see how it sounded at the vanguard...

I'm stoked you were feeling it like i was.

I will be at the next one to take a zillion pics as usual

quote:

Originally posted by djskyhigh u rock for spreading the word. the 18+ are the 21+ of the future and we most definitely need you guys! any club would be silly to not realize the longterm value of somehow embracing that age group so that they could develop it.

Yeah! What Kristina said! While you guys are working out the politics, I'll just focus in on the fun. lol Peace.

quote:

Originally posted by djskyhigh are u being sarcastic with me mister?

By no means am I sarcastic. Of course - I mean it!

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