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quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree So I can't use 'Fiberals' or 'Con-servatives' or 'New Dummycrats'?

LOL

I don't know what to really say to this. One of the good points brought up in this thread by Abercrombie is that each party does nothing better, but simply vie for votes through a comparison of others' blunders. Seems kind of weak.

Reading this whole separatist thread gave me shivers. I cannot believe that there is such a strong sentiment to saparatism. Or maybe this is just more misinformation and muddy-water questioning. I cannot believe that the mass populace of this country would be that stupid.

Re: Canada could soon be gone

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf Separatism fought on two fronts Even Clarity Act may not save Canada if Liberals win another election By Licia Corbella -- Calgary Sun Virtually every time Canada's near-brush with separation in 1995 is mentioned......

just fyi...The Calgary Sun is a tabloid newspaper written to be legible even for people without high-school educations. If you want to quote a Western newspaper with remote credibility try the Calgary Herald.

Re: Re: Canada could soon be gone

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Originally posted by pinkphantasm just fyi...The Calgary Sun is a tabloid newspaper written to be legible even for people without high-school educations. If you want to quote a Western newspaper with remote credibility try the Calgary Herald.

A good point is a good point. Trashing the source regardless of how relevant they are to the topic at hand only means that you cannot come up with anything better to say against what the writer is stating. All these proves is that you have lost the debate.

The Calgary sun is indeed credible because they report facts just as the herald does.

I'm actually not trashing the point. It's just that, as someone from Alberta, I understand the horrible reputation of that newspaper. If someone even admits to reading it they'll be teased for being white trash indefintiely.

Re: Re: Re: Canada could soon be gone

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Originally posted by Jayx1 The Calgary sun is indeed credible because they report facts just as the herald does.

Therefore a right wing publication that reports facts with a bias is just as credible as a left wing publication that reports facts with a bias.

Reading "facts" while ignoring their bias is pointless.

But alas the media is predominantly dominated by centre-left bias according to many right wing pundits. *yawn*

Separatism is alive and well in Alberta. Especially, among young, educated professionals who understand that Ottawa has no reverence or interest in understanding western issues. Take this basic analogy under consideration.

Let's say your family has always lived in the same house and moving is out of the question because it's the most beautiful, prosperous place on earth. Your house is in a neighborhood, and the neighborhood is governed by your neighbor, simply because he has the most children. The neighbor lives three doors down, yet he never visits, and rarely calls. This neighbor makes the rules for all the residents, while only consulting his wife and children, never considering your opinion. Then, for the priveledge of living in this neighborhood, and being under his rule, he asks you to give him a pile of money. In the beginning, you like the neighborhood, and want to be neighborly so you give him money year after year, putting up with neglect, stupid decisions and plain ignorance. After a while, you start to notice that the neighbor is irresponsibly wasting your money and giving your money to other neighbors who aren't being fiscally responsible. The next year the neighbor then comes to you and asks you for even more money. What would you do? I think it's only natural to contemplate the thought of halting the payment, putting up a fence, and telling the neighbor to go pound sand

I doubt separation will come to fruition in my lifetime, but please don't be naive and think that Albertans don't consider it.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada could soon be gone

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Originally posted by Time2Burn Therefore a right wing publication that reports facts with a bias is just as credible as a left wing publication that reports facts with a bias. Reading "facts" while ignoring their bias is pointless. But alas the media is predominantly dominated by centre-left bias according to many right wing pundits. *yawn*

MOST of the bias comes from the positioning of headlines and the editorials. Not necissarly the articles themselves.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada could soon be gone

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Originally posted by Jayx1 MOST of the bias comes from the articles themselves. Not necissarly the placement of headlines and choice of editorials.

corrected.

How To Detect Bias In News Media

quote:

Originally posted by Wurm Your argument's strength is diminished every time you use the word 'Lieberal'. Make your point without name-calling. Can't do it? Hmm...

It's done quite on purpose. I want to differentiate principled liberals from the corrupt Liberal Party. Honest liberals shouldn't be tainted by Chretien/Martin corruption and lies.

The Lieberal Party must be deregistered and refounded. The New Liberal Party (NLP) will be one that honest liberals can vote for without hesitation.

Another reason why Alberta could separate....

Report on Business: Canadian
Oil: A new continental divide; CIBC predicts oil prices will create a gap in Canada's regional fortunes
PATRICK BRETHOUR
672 words
20 December 2005
The Globe and Mail
B1
English
All material copyright Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. or its licensors. All rights reserved.

CALGARY -- Welcome to the bowl-shaped economy, where the energy-rich provinces at either end of Canada zoom ahead of a sagging middle.

Projecting a major surge in oil and gas prices next year, CIBC World Markets Inc. is forecasting a yawning regional gap in economic growth in 2006, where there is a sharp divide between those provinces that have oil and gas sectors, and those that are merely victims of pricey crude. At one end of the country, Alberta, British Columbia and Saskatchewan will all outpace national economic growth, as will Newfoundland to the east. Everywhere in between � most definitively in Ontario � economic expansion will buckle under the combined weight of high energy prices, rising interest rates and a soaring dollar.

Alberta will be at the top of the bowl, with its economy expanding at more than double the national average � and nearly four times the rate of laggard Ontario, at the bottom. In the world that CIBC envisages, high energy prices are just the first domino in a series whose ultimate impact will be to transform the workings of the Canadian economy. Alberta would become a haven for money and workers fleeing the enfeebled economies of Ontario and Quebec. �People and capital will vote with their feet,� said CIBC World Markets chief economist Jeffrey Rubin.

He said Newfoundland, the poor cousin of Confederation, will find itself doubly blessed by both a major surge in energy royalties and timely concessions from the federal government that allow it to retain its equalization payments despite rising resource wealth. �It certainly challenges the notion of Newfoundland being a have-not province,� he said.

But it is in Alberta where the effects of high energy prices will be most obvious. Mr. Rubin is projecting that oil prices will jump to $70 (U.S.) a barrel next year, a 22-per-cent increase from current levels, with natural gas hitting $13 a million British thermal units. On that basis, Alberta's economic growth will soar to 7.1 per cent next year � and its budget surplus could more than double to touch $19-billion (Canadian).

The Alberta surplus would be the equivalent of a federal surplus of nearly $200-billion.

Such a flood of cash will give Alberta the ability, at least, to eliminate income taxes entirely, Mr. Rubin said.

There will be some tax cuts, he predicted, which will then exacerbate Central Canada's woes as Alberta attracts investment beyond the petroleum sector. �That's as much an economic wedge as high energy prices,� he said, raising the possibility of an exodus of corporate headquarters from Toronto to Calgary.

CIBC's call on prices is more aggressive than other forecasts. Toronto-Dominion Bank, by contrast, is predicting that crude will fall toward $50 (U.S.) a barrel next year, as the United States economy gears down.

But Craig Alexander, TD deputy chief economist, said his outlook is different only in degree. Even with $50 crude, Mr. Alexander said, Alberta will still rack up a budget surplus in the billions, and its economic growth of 3.6 per cent will still outpace Ontario's subpar performance of 2.7 per cent.

The gap between Alberta and the rest of the country holds further woe for Central Canada, according to Mr. Rubin. Inflationary pressures sparked by the rapid expansion of the province's oil sector will force the Bank of Canada to raise interest rates. The blunt instrument of interest rates will have relatively slight impact in Alberta, where it is most needed. But in Ontario, home to interest-sensitive industries such as banking, such hikes will add to the pain of rising energy prices. That is, Mr. Rubin said, a complete reversal from the late 1980s, when the inflationary bubble of Toronto real estate pushed the central bank to inflict high interest rates on the rest of the country.

Lets just F-ing separate & start the war between provinces already!

Then any survivors left after the Great Canadian War will join together & start a new country.
Which I like to call: Netherland Two

quote:

Originally posted by ChadVanDyk Separatism is alive and well in Alberta. Especially, among young, educated professionals who understand that Ottawa has no reverence or interest in understanding western issues. Take this basic analogy under consideration. Let's say your family has always lived in the same house and moving is out of the question because it's the most beautiful, prosperous place on earth. Your house is in a neighborhood, and the neighborhood is governed by your neighbor, simply because he has the most children. The neighbor lives three doors down, yet he never visits, and rarely calls. This neighbor makes the rules for all the residents, while only consulting his wife and children, never considering your opinion. Then, for the priveledge of living in this neighborhood, and being under his rule, he asks you to give him a pile of money. In the beginning, you like the neighborhood, and want to be neighborly so you give him money year after year, putting up with neglect, stupid decisions and plain ignorance. After a while, you start to notice that the neighbor is irresponsibly wasting your money and giving your money to other neighbors who aren't being fiscally responsible. The next year the neighbor then comes to you and asks you for even more money. What would you do? I think it's only natural to contemplate the thought of halting the payment, putting up a fence, and telling the neighbor to go pound sand I doubt separation will come to fruition in my lifetime, but please don't be naive and think that Albertans don't consider it.

I completely understand the will to seperate that exists in Alberta. I find it pretty laughable, however, that there was no such will 50 years ago when Alberta was one of the provinces that perpetually had their hand out. Should the oil dry up or we move away from being a petrolium based economy they will have their hands out again. It's amazing how confederation is a great thing so long as you're the one reaping the benefits but not so nice when you're the one paying out. Ontario has been paying out to the other provinces since 1867! So hey, thanks for finally doing your part.

Now, if Alberta wants a greater say in how the country is run the solution is quite simple.... support a party that will represent a balance of interests between all regions of the country or at very least Alberta and Ontario (because we have all the seats). Honestly, if the CPC would put a red tory in the leadership they would win a majority government hands down, however, so long as the CPC is led by someone who's values are in opposition to the Ontario electorate a majority CPC government is an impossibility. I understand that Alberta is tired of being ignored, however, simply whining that the idiots in Ontario always vote Liberal won't help you. Much like the west votes CPC because they represent their interests Ontario votes Liberal because they look out for Ontario. This is only natural. So long as this continues the west will always play second fiddle in parliment. Fair? Maybe not. True? Absolutely.

Of course the other option is to find a way to drastically increase your population, however, this will likely take quite a while.

^Actually, the Reform party was seen as the 'western' party... Makes you wonder...

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I completely understand the will to seperate that exists in Alberta. I find it pretty laughable, however, that there was no such will 50 years ago when Alberta was one of the provinces that perpetually had their hand out. Should the oil dry up or we move away from being a petrolium based economy they will have their hands out again. It's amazing how confederation is a great thing so long as you're the one reaping the benefits but not so nice when you're the one paying out. Ontario has been paying out to the other provinces since 1867! So hey, thanks for finally doing your part. Now, if Alberta wants a greater say in how the country is run the solution is quite simple.... support a party that will represent a balance of interests between all regions of the country or at very least Alberta and Ontario (because we have all the seats). Honestly, if the CPC would put a red tory in the leadership they would win a majority government hands down, however, so long as the CPC is led by someone who's values are in opposition to the Ontario electorate a majority CPC government is an impossibility. I understand that Alberta is tired of being ignored, however, simply whining that the idiots in Ontario always vote Liberal won't help you. Much like the west votes CPC because they represent their interests Ontario votes Liberal because they look out for Ontario. This is only natural. So long as this continues the west will always play second fiddle in parliment. Fair? Maybe not. True? Absolutely. Of course the other option is to find a way to drastically increase your population, however, this will likely take quite a while.

well said.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Honestly, if the CPC would put a red tory in the leadership they would win a majority government hands down, however, so long as the CPC is led by someone who's values are in opposition to the Ontario electorate a majority CPC government is an impossibility.

Wrong, a Red Tory leader would lose the West. Case in point: Joe Clark's PC Party from 1998-2003 (arguably also Mulroney/Campbell in 1993).

Playing regions against each other is a Lieberal game. It's time to end it.

Lieberals/Red Tories try to appease Quebec - that's the wrong approach, as it further alienates the West. What Harper is proposing is giving Quebec or any other province what's rightfully theirs under the British North America Act. If the federal government stops interfering in matters under provincial jurisdiction, we'd be half way to solving the separatist problem. All of a sudden, the conditions would be right to amend the Constitution: bring in a Triple-E senate and have Quebec sign the Constitution. Every region would benefit - that's the right approach.


BTW, Harper's values are more in tune with Ontario's than Martin outside of Toronto. Martin is way outside of the mainstream on issues like same-sex marriage.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politic...16/1355517.html

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I completely understand the will to seperate that exists in Alberta. I find it pretty laughable, however, that there was no such will 50 years ago when Alberta was one of the provinces that perpetually had their hand out. Should the oil dry up or we move away from being a petrolium based economy they will have their hands out again. It's amazing how confederation is a great thing so long as you're the one reaping the benefits but not so nice when you're the one paying out. Ontario has been paying out to the other provinces since 1867! So hey, thanks for finally doing your part. Now, if Alberta wants a greater say in how the country is run the solution is quite simple.... support a party that will represent a balance of interests between all regions of the country or at very least Alberta and Ontario (because we have all the seats). Honestly, if the CPC would put a red tory in the leadership they would win a majority government hands down, however, so long as the CPC is led by someone who's values are in opposition to the Ontario electorate a majority CPC government is an impossibility. I understand that Alberta is tired of being ignored, however, simply whining that the idiots in Ontario always vote Liberal won't help you. Much like the west votes CPC because they represent their interests Ontario votes Liberal because they look out for Ontario. This is only natural. So long as this continues the west will always play second fiddle in parliment. Fair? Maybe not. True? Absolutely. Of course the other option is to find a way to drastically increase your population, however, this will likely take quite a while.

I was about to write the same along these lines...

When you're poor, you want in, when rich, you want out.

Being from Calgary the Alberta Separtist movement is overplayed in the media and by Ralph Klein. No one I know that lives here talks steadfastly about seperatism nor do I want to seperate. Its overblown because Klein is always making comments on how Alberta doesn't want to give its money to Ottawa and for Ottawa to back off.

Merely saying for Alberta to have its say, we should vote red, is a comment that fuels resent and sepratism. It comes off as very arrogant (Just like Ralph Klein ). If the west voted red there would be little opposition in parliament (which I believe is not very good). In my opinion Alberta seperatism is way overblown and is a hollow threat.

quote:

Originally posted by malek I was about to write the same along these lines... When you're poor, you want in, when rich, you want out.

I'm not sure we ever wanted in. Alberta has been prosperous since the second World War, excluding the early 80's due to the NEP and overall global economic downturn. Without federal intervention, we will continue to be rich until long after I die.

quote:

Originally posted by tempoman Being from Calgary the Alberta Separtist movement is overplayed in the media and by Ralph Klein. No one I know that lives here talks steadfastly about seperatism nor do I want to seperate. Its overblown because Klein is always making comments on how Alberta doesn't want to give its money to Ottawa and for Ottawa to back off. Merely saying for Alberta to have its say, we should vote red, is a comment that fuels resent and sepratism. It comes off as very arrogant (Just like Ralph Klein ). If the west voted red there would be little opposition in parliament (which I believe is not very good). In my opinion Alberta seperatism is way overblown and is a hollow threat.

I believe everything in the media is overhyped..it's their job. I'm not sure what kind of circles you run in and given the average demographic of TA, you're probably new to your career or in school so I wouldn't expect many of your mates expelling the benefits of separatism. However, if you spoke with the majority of Albertans between 30-65, especially rural Albertans, I'm sure you'll find a solid third would support separation. As for voting red, it was a red PC leader being referenced earlier in the thread, Alberta will never vote Liberal...never.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I completely understand the will to seperate that exists in Alberta. I find it pretty laughable, however, that there was no such will 50 years ago when Alberta was one of the provinces that perpetually had their hand out. Should the oil dry up or we move away from being a petrolium based economy they will have their hands out again. It's amazing how confederation is a great thing so long as you're the one reaping the benefits but not so nice when you're the one paying out. Ontario has been paying out to the other provinces since 1867! So hey, thanks for finally doing your part.

The oil in Alberta is going to take a very long time to dry up - The tar sands are the second largest bitumen oil reserve on the planet. If oil becomes scarce enough and the price of oil rises enough, it will become feasible to exploit it.
And, when the oil does dry up, Alberta will be a province with a massive surplus and other industries to subsist on (engineering, construction, medical research/biotechnology, agriculture, information/communication technologies). Oil's not the only industry in the West.

quote:

Originally posted by ChadVanDyk I believe everything in the media is overhyped..it's their job. I'm not sure what kind of circles you run in and given the average demographic of TA, you're probably new to your career or in school so I wouldn't expect many of your mates expelling the benefits of separatism. However, if you spoke with the majority of Albertans between 30-65, especially rural Albertans, I'm sure you'll find a solid third would support separation. As for voting red, it was a red PC leader being referenced earlier in the thread, Alberta will never vote Liberal...never.

You got me. 19 and third year university student. I'll get back to you when I am making a reasonable amount of money in Alberta But my parents both fit in the age demographic and one is an engineer. I've never hear much about seperatism except what comes from the media. I worked in and around Grand Praire this summer and my co-workers (roughnecks) never mentioned much either. Maybe because they didn't vote

quote:

Originally posted by tempoman You got me. 19 and third year university student. I'll get back to you when I am making a reasonable amount of money in Alberta But my parents both fit in the age demographic and one is an engineer. I've never hear much about seperatism except what comes from the media. I worked in and around Grand Praire this summer and my co-workers (roughnecks) never mentioned much either. Maybe because they didn't vote

You should ask your dad about his thoughts on the subject. Might be interesting dinner conversation. Poor bastard...stuck in Grande Prairie for the summer with rigpigs. I'm sure politics didn't come up at "Showgirls".

Ah, good old UNfair.org, dedicated to criticizing any media that doesn't follow the liberal status quo. For a while I thought I'd seen the last of that trash pile, but no, leave it to TOTA's Marxists to remind me that it still exists...

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Ah, good old UNfair.org, dedicated to criticizing any media that doesn't follow the liberal status quo. For a while I thought I'd seen the last of that trash pile, but no, leave it to TOTA's Marxists to remind me that it still exists...

Well Aaron we finally agree. UNfair.org is a pile of crud cause they report facts based on their own biases (just as the National Post is for doing the same). Every side has its own bias, slant and opinion. The point is one must realize that. Not to take ANY form of media at its face value. Try to wade through the bullshit from ALL sides, mix it with your own biases and formulate your OWN opinion. And in the end RESPECT the opinions of others.

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