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does it really matter the way al-quaida is organised. the fact is that it exists and is carrying out terrorist attacks. whether or not its another group affiliated to them with another name doesnt make any difference. if anything the fact that the gov group all islamic terrists as 'linked to al-Q' is underplaying the threat. if they went about differentiating the different groups it could be seen to be swarm of islamic terrorism, overbearing on the western world.

as for defence contracts...dont they keep the economy stable? they are one of the few manufacturing industries left in a lot of countries

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Originally posted by svens_bath does it really matter the way al-quaida is organised.

Of course it matters! How can you defeat them if you dont even know how they are organised!?

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the fact is that it exists and is carrying out terrorist attacks. whether or not its another group affiliated to them with another name doesnt make any difference.

So it doesn't matter which terrorist group does it? Thats a bit of an odd thing to say isn't it? Thats like saying there is no difference between attacks carried out by the PFLP and the IRA, they all follow the same ideology afterall, dont they?

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if anything the fact that the gov group all islamic terrists as 'linked to al-Q' is underplaying the threat. if they went about differentiating the different groups it could be seen to be swarm of islamic terrorism, overbearing on the western world.

No because if they differentiated then people might get the idea (Lord forbid!) that these groups all have their own motives and causes that have nothing to do with the West. And where is this proof that there is a "swarm of islamic terrorism, overbearing on the western world"??

I get the impression you are buying into the line that the Islamists are trying to take over the world?

I'll add to that that al-Qaida (ie bin Laden and his close associates, not the freelancers) are using this war on terror as much as Bush is. They seem to form a sybiotic relationship where the more each of them act the more benefits the other stands to gain. Bush wants to exert control over the world (esp Middle East) and bin Laden wants shit loads of supporters for his cause (and no, his cause is not taking over the world or even destroying the "Great Satan" America)

all the islamic terrorists want the same thing. what started as a backlash against the isreal situation has developed into a hatred of American-democracy and the West

im not saying there is a sawarm of islamic terorirsm, but i am saying that thats how it could be perceived if you start differentiating between all the gruops. the terrorist threat could then be exagerated.

i dont think islamists are trying to take over the world...they want to bring down the West that they see is the Devil, in some misguided holywar. thats the reality. i think people have, via distrust of tony blair, begun to disregard the islaimic terrorist threat as a Michal Moore conspiracy. theyre stil out there, and theyre coming to get your flower pots!!!

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Originally posted by svens_bath all the islamic terrorists want the same thing. what started as a backlash against the isreal situation has developed into a hatred of American-democracy and the West im not saying there is a sawarm of islamic terorirsm, but i am saying that thats how it could be perceived if you start differentiating between all the gruops. the terrorist threat could then be exagerated. i dont think islamists are trying to take over the world...they want to bring down the West that they see is the Devil, in some misguided holywar. thats the reality. i think people have, via distrust of tony blair, begun to disregard the islaimic terrorist threat as a Michal Moore conspiracy. theyre stil out there, and theyre coming to get your flower pots!!!

Thats the "reality"? And tell me how they are gonna "bring down the West"?!

And can you yourself differentiate, for example, between al-Qaida and Hizballah? Two Islamist movements...

Also, do you differentiate between the IRA and the PFLP (as I said above)? They both follow the same ideology so by your logic they must be the same. Do you think they are?

i doubt they will take down the West, but that is their aim. like i said groups like hizbollah started with an isreal agenda, but i dont think its too far-fetched to suggest that they have engaged the whole taking down the West cause now.

NI i dont know too much about. if they have the same ideology are they not generally grouped together as unionists or republicans anyway?

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Originally posted by svens_bath i doubt they will take down the West, but that is their aim. like i said groups like hizbollah started with an isreal agenda, but i dont think its too far-fetched to suggest that they have engaged the whole taking down the West cause now. NI i dont know too much about. if they have the same ideology are they not generally grouped together as unionists or republicans anyway?

The PLFP are Palestinians, but are linked ideologically to the IRA, but you wouldn't group them together would you? And link Hizballah with al-Qaida is even more rediculous but you dont stop there you claim Hizballah want to bring down the West too!! Sorry, you actually claim Hizballah ARE engaging in "bringing the West down"!!!

Er...

Would it be out of the question to ask where you got this little nugget of information from? Link a link or summat? (And when you say "hizbollah started with an isreal agenda" what do you mean by that?)

hizbollah are anti-us right? well isnt that pretty much anti-Western? i dont subscribe to the Hizbollah Herald or nowt, but i think if they had the chance they would want to bring down the West which is the root of their problems. im not saying they are linked to al-Q, just they share a similar general aim as far as im concerned. anti-isreal meaning they formed in response to the isreal invasion of lebanon.

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Originally posted by svens_bath hizbollah are anti-us right? well isnt that pretty much anti-Western? i dont subscribe to the Hizbollah Herald or nowt, but i think if they had the chance they would want to bring down the West which is the root of their problems. im not saying they are linked to al-Q, just they share a similar general aim as far as im concerned. anti-isreal meaning they formed in response to the isreal invasion of lebanon.

There are a lot of people that are anti-American! Not quite all of them are Islamists however And anti-America means anti-American government. Hizballah (in fact I even recall bin Laden saying something similar) has no problems with American citizens and it may come as a surprise to you but I can assure you neither group is trying to "destroy" America (or anywhere else in the world for that matter)

Hizballah are a localised group (albeit the most powerful militant group in the world most probably) that are concerned with Lebanon and getting Israel out (and believe they succeded). After that they are like Hamas in that they are a political party with a complex social network. Comparing Hizballah to al-Qaida is not in the slightest bit useful.

It is exacltly the same as comparing the IRA to the PFLP - the IRA want Irish reunification, and the PFLP want Palestinian independance (yet by your logic they are one and the same)

I assure you bin Laden has no desire to destroy our way of life (if you must know, his aim is first, to see American forces leave Saudi Arabia, secondly to overthrow the Saudi ruling family and thirdly, to establish the Calaphate across the Middle East. Thats it)

I'm not taking the piss or anything, but can I ask you where you are getting your opinions from?

what was 9/11 then..looked to me like an attack on America and its citizens..an attack on a western capitalist symbol..which bin laden took the blame for..so i think his aims have extended beyond the middle east. if the extremist muslims had theyre way they would want to take down the West.

hizbollah are anti-us..so are al-Q, i think theres a valid comparison there.

as for the plfp and the ira they are only thinly similar in ideology of independece..that way you could argue that the snp are like kashmiri separitists. al-Q and Hisbollah are both islamist groups who share a similar islamic outlook on the world..and are therefore more likely to be syspmathetic to each other's cause. muslims identify with the plights of other muslims all over the world.

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Originally posted by svens_bath what was 9/11 then..looked to me like an attack on America and its citizens..an attack on a western capitalist symbol..which bin laden took the blame for..so i think his aims have extended beyond the middle east. if the extremist muslims had theyre way they would want to take down the West. hizbollah are anti-us..so are al-Q, i think theres a valid comparison there. as for the plfp and the ira they are only thinly similar in ideology of independece..that way you could argue that the snp are like kashmiri separitists. al-Q and Hisbollah are both islamist groups who share a similar islamic outlook on the world..and are therefore more likely to be syspmathetic to each other's cause. muslims identify with the plights of other muslims all over the world.

The IRA and PFLP are ideological brothers! You say that both al-Qaida and Hizballah are the same cos they are both Islamist, yet go on to say the IRA and PFLP aren't the same! The PFLP and IRA are more alike than Hizballah and al-Qaida ever will be! (PFLP and the IRA (plus every other Palestinian group before the late 80s, plus most of the other terrorist groups around in the 70s) are both Marxist revolutionary militants so they are not just linked cos they have their own separate independence causes, they are linked through their shared ideology of Marxism)

As for al-Qaida attacking America as 'proof' of their desire to 'destroy' America, perhaps you should look at the three aims I listed above and see how by provoking America might benefit them? (Think recruitment)

Again, I'm gonna have to ask you where your information is coming from?

whther the pflp and ira are close in Marxist ideology or not..muslims will still be sympathetic to the muslim cause, and so i dont think you can explicitly say that they dont have anti-Western sentiments.

ok even if osama bin laden doesnt want to take down the west, hes provoked a reaction from the west that has engaged many disaffected muslim youths who are now taking anti-western stances, and whether he likes it or not, hes provoked a war on islam, which will provoke a reaction against the West

you constantly hear muslims denounce the way of the west. sounds to me like they would take down the western way of life if they could.

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Originally posted by svens_bath whther the pflp and ira are close in Marxist ideology or not..muslims will still be sympathetic to the muslim cause, and so i dont think you can explicitly say that they dont have anti-Western sentiments.

I'm not saying they dont have anti-western sentiments but you cant have a one size fits all just because a group happens to be Islamist. The marxist groups during the 70s DID help each other (the Palestinians worked with numerous European terrorist groups in their operations, people like Carlos the Jackel for example) The same cannot be said for the Islamist groups. no doubt there is cooperation amongst some, but when we look at the well known ones like Hizballah and Hamas, they have constantly rejected al-Qaida and what they stand for and they even condemned the 11/9 attacks (altho both groups have helped each other out in their LOCALISED cause)

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ok even if osama bin laden doesnt want to take down the west, hes provoked a reaction from the west that has engaged many disaffected muslim youths who are now taking anti-western stances, and whether he likes it or not, hes provoked a war on islam, which will provoke a reaction against the West

Yes it is a traditional tactic to get people on your side. Bin Laden attacked America to get them out of Saudi Arabia, not to destroy them. After that the aim was to prevoke America to take the course of action it is taking now to bolster the ranks for phase two of his objective to overthro the Saudi royal family.

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you constantly hear muslims denounce the way of the west. sounds to me like they would take down the western way of life if they could.

The USSR could not "take down the west" and they had nuclear bombs!!! Bin Laden is not an idiot and neither are his followers. I'm sure they would like to keep the western way of life out of their own countries but as for destroying it in our countries they are not that stupid to even think they could succeed. But thats what the politicians tell you and you lap it all up...

but osama bin laden doesnt control al-Q they are splintered and some may organise under the al-Q banner with their own agenda.this is what my original point is. osama bin laden's aims arent the same as those joining him. go down to your local mosque and im sure youll find a general consensus of a hatred of amemrica and its way of life. like i have said quite a few times, i dont think that they could take down the us, or its way of life..but Ahmed down the mosque probably does.

whther or not they publicly reject al-Q, there are undoubtedly memebers of either gropu that support the al-q cause, and who knows what they could do in the future. after all these groups are a source of power for their leaders. if they settled their local disputes do you think they will just pack in the gun-slinging and go back to selling magic carpets? i dont think so, there is the possibility that they could turn their attention on what they see as global injustices in the muslim world.

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Originally posted by svens_bath but osama bin laden doesnt control al-Q they are splintered and some may organise under the al-Q banner with their own agenda.this is what my original point is. osama bin laden's aims arent the same as those joining him. go down to your local mosque and im sure youll find a general consensus of a hatred of amemrica and its way of life. like i have said quite a few times, i dont think that they could take down the us, or its way of life..but Ahmed down the mosque probably does.

No I dont even think Ahmed down the local Mosque thinks they can destroy America! And the fact that there are loads of different groups all with their own aims suggests you should take them all individually in order to find the best way of dealing with them. The best example I can think of (well two really) is Bosnia and Chechnya. Al-Qaida fought in Bosnia against the Serbs (just like us!!) so inevitably the Bosnian (Muslim) forces are gonna have "links to al-Qaida". But do you think the same solution to the Bosnian crisi was the same as the solutiuon to al-Qaida? Obviously not cos we were kind of on al-Qaida's side then weren't we? We bombed Afghanistan to take out al-Qaida, but we went into Bosnia to protect the muslims. Again in Chechnya, al-Qaida had fought the Russians, but its pretty widely accepted that it is Russian oppression that is the cause. Are we to turn our back and group everyone who is linked with al-Qaida together and treat them the same? No cos they obviously have diffent agendas from al-Qaida and different causes (meaning there is a different solution to each one) If we treated them all as the same we would have taken the Serbian side in the Bosnian war and we would be supporting the Russians in their war in Chechnya, but we dont because they are not the same as al-Qaida despite having links with them and despite having fought side by side with them.

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whther or not they publicly reject al-Q, there are undoubtedly memebers of either gropu that support the al-q cause, and who knows what they could do in the future. after all these groups are a source of power for their leaders. if they settled their local disputes do you think they will just pack in the gun-slinging and go back to selling magic carpets? i dont think so, there is the possibility that they could turn their attention on what they see as global injustices in the muslim world.

How many times can could I say to you that none of these groups want to destroy the west!? And no, Hamas and Hizballah do not support al-Qaida or their aims! Hamas and Hizballah are political parties (just like Sien Fein) who are concerned about their own country. Bin Laden is the same, he is concerned about saudi Arabia, Hamas with Palestine and Hizballah with Lebanon. Next you'll be telling me all the Palestinian groups are the same cos they want liberation from Israel?

You have to take each group separately cos if you dont you wont find the right solution to deal with them...

well if theyre polticial parties then they arent to be included as terrorist gropus and so wouldnt be linked to al-q. but if they are terorist gropus all im saying is that you cant rule out the possibility that one day they make decide to take on the west. there is strong anti-western setniment in the muslim world, which is why your seeing a return by many muslims to a greater observence of their religion.. i think that this could translate into an anti-western stance by members of any islamic group.

you will never be able to get rid of this islamic threat. its here to stay until the end of time now. many muslims see this as a sign of the end of the earth; judgement day. also niether party will budge on their demands.

bosnia wasnt a terorist threat. it was a humanitarian situation, the muslims did not create a threat, so you wouldnt regard them as an islamist threat. i amn't saying lump all muslims as terrorists..just the ones that make bombs.

we wil have to agree to disagree on our assessment of the threat of islamist terror..ive finished studying for the night so im off.

peace in the middle east

pressed submit by acident there..im editing it to finish it off

somebody blew up tiesto!

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Originally posted by svens_bath well if theyre polticial parties then they arent to be included as terrorist gropus and so wouldnt be linked to al-q. but if they are terorist gropus all im saying is that you cant rule out the possibility that one day they make decide to take on the west. there is strong anti-western setniment in the muslim world, which is why your seeing a return by many muslims to a greater observence of their religion.. i think that this could translate into an anti-western stance by members of any islamic group.

Well if you adhere to the theory that there are an infinite number of alternate universes which means there are an infinate number of possible futures, then there is very little that you can rule out. However, if we talk about probablility then it is extremely unlikely that Hamas, Hizballah, whoever will turn their attentions against the West - why would they? They might not like the policies of the West (or America) but neither do I yet do you see me emptying a bag of fertilizer in my bath tub?!

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you will never be able to get rid of this islamic threat. its here to stay until the end of time now. many muslims see this as a sign of the end of the earth; judgement day. also niether party will budge on their demands.

Well you could only make that kind of statement based on the sentiments of the people in the Arab world, but as democracy is probably a more popular ideology amongst the masses than Islamism then I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion?

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bosnia wasnt a terorist threat. it was a humanitarian situation, the muslims did not create a threat, so you wouldnt regard them as an islamist threat. i amn't saying lump all muslims as terrorists..just the ones that make bombs.

Yea...like the Bosnians then?

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z somebody blew up tiesto!

Sadly, terrorists don't do favours

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Originally posted by Lira Sadly, terrorists don't do favours

hehe I guess that can be interpreted in more ways than one. I was being corny. Tiesto means flowerpot in spanish. DJ Flowerpot

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z hehe I guess that can be interpreted in more ways than one. I was being corny. Tiesto means flowerpot in spanish. DJ Flowerpot

You learn something new everyday..........

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