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Originally posted by Shakka What's also amazing is how many success stories there are from people who dropped out of school!

Sarcasm? It's very very rare for that to happen.

One other thing to go along with Subey's posts: Don't you think if the kids who go to poor schools and kids in wealthy schools grew up in opposite situations with their parents going through the same school systems a generation earlier, their success rates would also reverse? If people are simply inherently more likely to become successful, then it would mean more kids would reach higher goals even despite disadvantages in their educational opportunities. I tend to think that their SATs would drop quite a bit if they received less preparation for them & didn't have the money to afford extra prep courses.

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Originally posted by wolverine16 Sarcasm? It's very very rare for that to happen.

Not really to an extent, but I don't want to take away from the importance of a good education, so I'll withdraw the statement. I was thinking along the lines of Bill Gates, who probably had good primary schooling, despite dropping out of college to become the wealthiest man in America.

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One other thing to go along with Subey's posts: Don't you think if the kids who go to poor schools and kids in wealthy schools grew up in opposite situations with their parents going through the same school systems a generation earlier, their success rates would also reverse? If people are simply inherently more likely to become successful, then it would mean more kids would reach higher goals even despite disadvantages in their educational opportunities. I tend to think that their SATs would drop quite a bit if they received less preparation for them & didn't have the money to afford extra prep courses.

I don't know what I think about that. It's certainly not illogical, but it is also predicated on some pretty generous assumptions. I for one am more of a believer in proper parenting ultimately contributing to a child's education, motivation and ultimate success and would never want to hang my hopes solely on what a school system will do for a child(though one could probably also make the claim that in an extremely contrarian situation, the child might be so motivated by his parents' complete lack of proper parenting, that he might rise out of his circumstances because he saw the light, but I digress).

I guess ultimately I am an optimist when it comes to people and their ability to adapt to and deal with their environment.(That's probably a lot of Rand coming out in me. i.e "The concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." ).

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Originally posted by Shakka Not really to an extent, but I don't want to take away from the importance of a good education, so I'll withdraw the statement. I was thinking along the lines of Bill Gates, who probably had good primary schooling, despite dropping out of college to become the wealthiest man in America. I don't know what I think about that. It's certainly not illogical, but it is also predicated on some pretty generous assumptions. I for one am more of a believer in proper parenting ultimately contributing to a child's education, motivation and ultimate success and would never want to hang my hopes solely on what a school system will do for a child(though one could probably also make the claim that in an extremely contrarian situation, the child might be so motivated by his parents' complete lack of proper parenting, that he might rise out of his circumstances because he saw the light, but I digress). I guess ultimately I am an optimist when it comes to people and their ability to adapt to and deal with their environment.(That's probably a lot of Rand coming out in me. i.e "The concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." ).

There's clearly no one way that works for everyone and even children in the same family grow up very differently. I share your optimism that people can succeed, I just think I'm very optimistic that many people do try already. I guarantee that there are kids who try harder to do better than their parents, but I also think most people benefit more often from having successful parents, not neccessarily from inheriting their genes, but from their societal influence, of knowing what it will take to succeed, having the knowledge to help with homework, etc. That's why I used a 2nd generation in my hypothetical. There's no one route or exact requirements for success, but I guess all I'm trying to say is while there are people that will find a way to gain success no matter what the obstacle, the majority of people aren't going to overcome significant disadvantages when competing with people with similar abilities who are given advantages.

*Also when I asked if you were being sarcastic, I thought you were discussing high school drop-outs, rather than college drop-outs.

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Originally posted by wolverine16 but I also think most people benefit more often from having successful parents, not neccessarily from inheriting their genes, but from their societal influence, of knowing what it will take to succeed, having the knowledge to help with homework, etc.

When I was a young lad, I had a summer job as a window washer. While I was excellent with computers, I was unable to get my foot in the door at Nortel (the dream summer job at the time).

Ironically, the company I worked for got the contract to wash the windows at Nortel's head office (Gattaca's a great movie by the way). 3 of my classmates had summer jobs at Nortel. All of them had worse computer knowledge than me. Guess what?

All three of them had parents who worked for Nortel. So at the end of that summer my resume said "Washed Nortel's Windows", while their's said "Worked for Nortel". Where I lived, before the bust, Nortel on a resume was the gold standard.

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Originally posted by Shakka I guess ultimately I am an optimist when it comes to people and their ability to adapt to and deal with their environment.(That's probably a lot of Rand coming out in me. i.e "The concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." ).

I can handle you finding Hedberg funny. But quoting Ayn crosses the line for me!

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Originally posted by wolverine16 But do you really think that a school in a poor neighborhood has the same reasources and quality teachers? I honestly don't know how Canadian public schools are funded (I'm guessing not through a property tax system like we have), so maybe they are more equally funded. I completely agree that some people will make it no matter what the odds, but who can honestly say a poorly funded school prepares its students as well as the best schools for the SATs? Additionally even if a high school student puts forth the effort to take public transportation and use what is available at a library across town, aren't they at a disadvantage from when when they were in failing first & second grade classes? There are a lot of people in poor neighborhoods who work multiple jobs to provide for their families as best as possible, but the reality is they cannot afford the housing to live in better school districts. Gentrification often occurs when neighborhoods do become better and funding for schools increases through property taxes. If the resources and opportunities are so sufficient in poorly funded school districts, then why do so many parents try to live in areas with good school districts? There's no way on earth that more kids from poorly funded schools will be accepted to the best colleges than students from prep & magnet schools, no matter how hard they work. C'mon! We're falling behind even France!

There's an assumption here that formal education is the key to wealth.
While formal education is important, it does not assume one will have more or less opportunities than someone with no formal education.
People unfortunately are still brainwashed into thinking education is "the" ticket so they flock to "good schools". Education doesn't guarantee anything other than debt.
The irony is that around the good schools are the wealthy people that have the opportunities and the mindset that people are really looking for.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r There's an assumption here that formal education is the key to wealth. While formal education is important, it does not assume one will have more or less opportunities than someone with no formal education. People unfortunately are still brainwashed into thinking education is "the" ticket so they flock to "good schools". Education doesn't guarantee anything other than debt. The irony is that around the good schools are the wealthy people that have the opportunities and the mindset that people are really looking for.

Yes, but more often than not it is people with a good education that succeed. Who was the last President who didn't go to an Ivy League school? The reason why wealthy people are around the good schools is because they can afford to send their kids there and in the case of solid public schools (like magnets), they can afford to live in those neighborhoods. My neighborhood, Lincoln Park, for example is one of the wealthiest in Chicago, but even 25 years ago, before it was gentrified, it was quite poor and had horrible schools. As the neighborhood came up, more and more people who had lived there could not afford the property taxes and costs of living and very few of those people still live in the neighborhood. This is very certain if you look at the drastic changes in the demographics.

Most often I think education is the ticket because you have to work your way up. What successful business doesn't want people who didn't come from the best schools, have the most experience, the best internships, the best letters of recommendation, the most familiarity with the technology they use? The top paying law firms, a couple of which I have interned at, will only even consider new attorney applicants if they are from one of the top 10 law schools or finish top in their class. Street smarts, personality and other more instinctive traits can also help a lot, but in general these will not solely give people an advantage over people who have highly developed educational skills, especially since many of these peoploe also may have their own intangibles. A good education is not a guarantee for success, but I can't think of any better tool to help foster it. Consistently college and post-graduate degree-holders outearn those without them. If I have to come up with a source that shows that, please let me know, as I guarantee I can find more than a few.

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Originally posted by wolverine16 Yes, but more often than not it is people with a good education that succeed. Who was the last President who didn't go to an Ivy League school? The reason why wealthy people are around the good schools is because they can afford to send their kids there and in the case of solid public schools (like magnets), they can afford to live in those neighborhoods. My neighborhood, Lincoln Park, for example is one of the wealthiest in Chicago, but even 25 years ago, before it was gentrified, it was quite poor and had horrible schools. As the neighborhood came up, more and more people who had lived there could not afford the property taxes and costs of living and very few of those people still live in the neighborhood. This is very certain if you look at the drastic changes in the demographics. Most often I think education is the ticket because you have to work your way up. What successful business doesn't want people who didn't come from the best schools, have the most experience, the best internships, the best letters of recommendation, the most familiarity with the technology they use? The top paying law firms, a couple of which I have interned at, will only even consider new attorney applicants if they are from one of the top 10 law schools or finish top in their class. Street smarts, personality and other more instinctive traits can also help a lot, but in general these will not solely give people an advantage over people who have highly developed educational skills, especially since many of these peoploe also may have their own intangibles. A good education is not a guarantee for success, but I can't think of any better tool to help foster it. Consistently college and post-graduate degree-holders outearn those without them. If I have to come up with a source that shows that, please let me know, as I guarantee I can find more than a few.

What you do say is true however those "A" students are working for the "B" students who are working for the "C" and "D" students that own the business.
I know at least 2-3 people in my grad class alone where this is true.
This isn't the case always, however if education is better than it's ever been, why is it that people that followed this path (for the most part) don't truly succeed?
Why is it that there are people out there that want to own their own business when they're already working for one that's stable?
I like what I read once, "The banks don't ask for your report card".

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r There's an assumption here that formal education is the key to wealth. While formal education is important, it does not assume one will have more or less opportunities than someone with no formal education. People unfortunately are still brainwashed into thinking education is "the" ticket so they flock to "good schools". Education doesn't guarantee anything other than debt. The irony is that around the good schools are the wealthy people that have the opportunities and the mindset that people are really looking for.

Taken from the 1991 Canadian Census for Canadians of British Ethnic Background - INCOME

With No degree being the base
No degree = Base
High school diploma = +13.2%
Trades Certificate = +16.8%
Other Non-University Certificate =+21.3%
University Certificate below bachelor =+27.3%
Bachelor =+39%
University Certificate above bachelor=+47.4%
Masters=+58.3%
Earned Doctorate=+76.6%

Woohoo! I found a use for my Sociology textbook

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Originally posted by Subey Taken from the 1991 Canadian Census for Canadians of British Ethnic Background - INCOME With No degree being the base No degree = Base High school diploma = +13.2% Trades Certificate = +16.8% Other Non-University Certificate =+21.3% University Certificate below bachelor =+27.3% Bachelor =+39% University Certificate above bachelor=+47.4% Masters=+58.3% Earned Doctorate=+76.6% Woohoo! I found a use for my Sociology textbook

I'm assuming these are salaries, in which case the census won't take into account business gains or portfolio incomes.

It's not about how much you make, it's about how much you keep.
Sure a doctor can make more than me, but after they've paid for their expenses and other obligations, how much are they making then?

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C'mon! We're falling behind even France!

Actually if I remember right, of all the Industrialized Democracies the United States' test scores are one of the lowest. So my guess is we've been behind France for a long time.

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Originally posted by wolverine16 Yes, but more often than not it is people with a good education that succeed. Who was the last President who didn't go to an Ivy League school? The reason why wealthy people are around the good schools is because they can afford to send their kids there and in the case of solid public schools (like magnets), they can afford to live in those neighborhoods. My neighborhood, Lincoln Park, for example is one of the wealthiest in Chicago, but even 25 years ago, before it was gentrified, it was quite poor and had horrible schools. As the neighborhood came up, more and more people who had lived there could not afford the property taxes and costs of living and very few of those people still live in the neighborhood. This is very certain if you look at the drastic changes in the demographics.

Lincoln Park is sweet. I'm looking you up the next time I'm in Chi-town (Wife's family is in the process of leaving Hinsdale but we still have several friends living downtown/Lincoln Park area).

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Originally posted by wolverine16 Most often I think education is the ticket because you have to work your way up. What successful business doesn't want people who didn't come from the best schools, have the most experience, the best internships, the best letters of recommendation, the most familiarity with the technology they use? The top paying law firms, a couple of which I have interned at, will only even consider new attorney applicants if they are from one of the top 10 law schools or finish top in their class. Street smarts, personality and other more instinctive traits can also help a lot, but in general these will not solely give people an advantage over people who have highly developed educational skills, especially since many of these peoploe also may have their own intangibles. A good education is not a guarantee for success, but I can't think of any better tool to help foster it. Consistently college and post-graduate degree-holders outearn those without them. If I have to come up with a source that shows that, please let me know, as I guarantee I can find more than a few.

I don't disagree with you. Many firms (particularly some of the ones at the higher end of the food chain) simply want to attract the best talent and use education as a filter to weed out the bulk of the applicants. It generally works, as the chances of hiring a bad apple from such an elite pool of the educated is such a low risk strategy for them. That's not to say that they might not find an equally if not more qualified person if they were to do some deeper digging downstream, but that does have incremental costs and risks associated with it. I believe that a private firm maintains the right to hire who they want, regardless of how they want to sort through the applicants.

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Originally posted by Shakka Lincoln Park is sweet. I'm looking you up the next time I'm in Chi-town (Wife's family is in the process of leaving Hinsdale but we still have several friends living downtown/Lincoln Park area).

Nice, I was just in Hinsdale a couple weeks ago because I have some family there too. I'm right by the huge string of bars in the heart of LP on Lincoln Ave. if you're in the area sometime soon. 50 cent drinks on Mondays & Thursdays!

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I don't disagree with you. Many firms (particularly some of the ones at the higher end of the food chain) simply want to attract the best talent and use education as a filter to weed out the bulk of the applicants. It generally works, as the chances of hiring a bad apple from such an elite pool of the educated is such a low risk strategy for them. That's not to say that they might not find an equally if not more qualified person if they were to do some deeper digging downstream, but that does have incremental costs and risks associated with it. I believe that a private firm maintains the right to hire who they want, regardless of how they want to sort through the applicants.

Oh, absolutely firms should hire the people with the best credentials. I just think that some of the most talented people don't make it to the top because of disadvantages and it's possible to look at the issue from the same way many conservatives view the necessity to provide business with the tools needed to make our country competitive in the world. I think we could benefit greatly in the same way from the most gifted people get access to the best education they can, so that we can have the best and brightest in business, law & science. Certainly grants, scholarships and other means do help some of them to do so, but it does concern me a bit to know that many other countries we compete against do much more and outperform U.S. students overall greatly due, in my opinion, to the lack of disparity in their educational structures. Just an area I think is becoming more important, particularly with the ever-growing importance of global markets & technology.

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Originally posted by wolverine16 Nice, I was just in Hinsdale a couple weeks ago because I have some family there too. I'm right by the huge string of bars in the heart of LP on Lincoln Ave. if you're in the area sometime soon. 50 cent drinks on Mondays & Thursdays!

We rented out McDuff's or Duffy's or whatever it's called when I got married in Chicago last fall. The place flooded, and I got hosed on my credit card bill, but I think people had a lot of fun. There are definitely some good bars around there.

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Originally posted by Shakka We rented out McDuff's or Duffy's or whatever it's called when I got married in Chicago last fall. The place flooded, and I got hosed on my credit card bill, but I think people had a lot of fun. There are definitely some good bars around there.

oh my!

If anything, they'll remember it

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Originally posted by Shakka We rented out McDuff's or Duffy's or whatever it's called when I got married in Chicago last fall. The place flooded, and I got hosed on my credit card bill, but I think people had a lot of fun. There are definitely some good bars around there.

Ah, I know Duffy's, on Diversey Parkway. That's gotta be really expensive for a wedding party, but it's worth it for a once in a lifetime event. I once grabbed a huge construction horse from the street in front of there on the way home and I don't think I've gone back since then, because I vaguely remember people laughing at me who were watching through the window. Durkin's down the street is still one of my favorites.

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Originally posted by wolverine16 Ah, I know Duffy's, on Diversey Parkway. That's gotta be really expensive for a wedding party, but it's worth it for a once in a lifetime event.

Allow me to clarify. Duffy's was rented out for a late night drunk-fest after the rehearsal dinner. The place got trashed. Good times were had, indeed. The rehearsal dinner was at the CAA which was sweet if I may say so. The view of Millenium Park and Lake Michigan was unreal.

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