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-- George Smiley and 9.11 = absurd
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Originally posted by tiesto14 Yes i live in fear....as a matter of fact i live in a bomb shelter with my tin foil hat wearing a bullet proof jacket and a wet suit in case terrorists blow up a dam.......i also have a radar station in my shelter which tells me if any aircraft come near me so i can dive under my bunk gripping my helmet nice and tight.

Sucks to be you

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Originally posted by tiesto14 George Smiley's World (cus i know he will bring the Jews in sooner or later) Jews killed Christ for purposes of eradicating Christendom and establishing a Talmudic pan-Judaism. The plagues that ravaged Medieval Europe were the result of Jewish mass poisonings of Christians.................

I must say, plageurism is a bit unbecoming. The least you could do is cite your rant:

http://www.downloadfreetrial.com/bo...rys-future.html

Straw man arguments aren't very pretty either. I do have to agree a little bit with George on this one - you do tend to create a ghost-like argument from the other side, then proceed to beat it down as if your debator held that argument in the first place. I think you're placing George a bit too far into the conspiricist corner, which is a bit unfair at this point.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Sucks to be you

ya its a real bitch lemme tell ya...i get kind of lonely down in this bunker...but at least i will be safe when the next attack happens...cus the next one, according to FOX news, will be a doozie...it might even wipe out western civilisation...but thats ok i am down here and i CAN repopulate America....i have actually came up with a plan before coming down here...i brought bunny rabbit eggs from a female bunny...i plan on using my sperm and bunny eggs to create a new human being...well a new human bunny....which is good because i dont think bunnies get the attention they deserve anymore....so the new world will be amazing.

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I must say, plageurism is a bit unbecoming. The least you could do is cite your rant: http://www.downloadfreetrial.com/bo...rys-future.html Straw man arguments aren't very pretty either. I do have to agree a little bit with George on this one - you do tend to create a ghost-like argument from the other side, then proceed to beat it down as if your debator held that argument in the first place. I think you're placing George a bit too far into the conspiricist corner, which is a bit unfair at this point.

I never said it was mine...it just sounds better saying it that way...then saying from another persons...

but thats cool..u wanted to look smart for knowing the source

George IMPLIED Bin Laden was jus a cash man....which is not true...i created no straw man.

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Originally posted by George Smiley I have never said bin Laden or "al-Qaida" weren't involved, I said they didn't come up with the plan, they merely financed it. Nothing you have said has countered that.

And nothing u have said has backed up your thoughts that he only financed it and NOTHING else.

And u are still wrong by saying Sheik Mohammed WASNT the 3rd guy in Al Qaeda...because he WAS!!!!

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Originally posted by tiesto14 And u are still wrong by saying Sheik Mohammed WASNT the 3rd guy in Al Qaeda...because he WAS!!!!

Ok well who says Sheik Mohammed is their number 3? Those news papers you quoted? And where did they get their information from? All I am doing is presenting an alternative theory of al-Qaida (constructed by experts) that is different to the one the US government (and others) pushes on us. Dont you even find it a little bit interesting that experts are challenging what your government is telling you? I would find it pretty sad if you didn't...

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Originally posted by tiesto14 And nothing u have said has backed up your thoughts that he only financed it and NOTHING else.

But you have failed to either watch or comment on the documentary I posted so why should I provide any more information when you dont even do the courtesy of examining what has alread been presented to you?

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Originally posted by tiesto14 I never said it was mine...it just sounds better saying it that way...then saying from another persons...

It is a bit of courtesy to post links to your material when used. Intellectual honesty is nice to have, esp. here in the PDD when making an argument. I realize you're merely being a bit facetious when posting such a rant from someone else (and then subbing in George's name), but it does further demonstrate that you are creating a straw man fallacy against George in doing so, all kidding aside.

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but thats cool..u wanted to look smart for knowing the source

Anyone can Google - nothing "smart" about that really. As for my looks, well admittedly I could use all the help I can get in that category, so looking "smart" could help I suppose.

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George IMPLIED Bin Laden was jus a cash man....which is not true...i created no straw man.

He hasn't actually implied bin Laden being more or less a cash man - he's directly come out and said pretty much just that. This was not what I was addressing, however. Rather, this was:

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but u IMPLY he wasnt very much involved and shouldnt be a concern to authorities.

Which George said or implied nothing of the sort. What George did actually state was this:

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Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying he was not involved cos he clearly was, and I'm not saying it was wrong to take him out, cos he is clearly a danger, but my objection is t the notion of what al-Qaida is (or isn't). And it isn't an international network of terrorists. There are terrorist cells in most countries, probably planning attacks - but these are not al-Qaida cells, they are all individual cells (some of whom may very well ask bin Laden for financing)

So let's all take a deep breath and try to address each other's arguments at hand. Deal?

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Originally posted by tiesto14 ya its a real bitch lemme tell ya...i get kind of lonely down in this bunker...but at least i will be safe when the next attack happens...cus the next one, according to FOX news, will be a doozie...it might even wipe out western civilisation...but thats ok i am down here and i CAN repopulate America....i have actually came up with a plan before coming down here...i brought bunny rabbit eggs from a female bunny...i plan on using my sperm and bunny eggs to create a new human being...well a new human bunny....which is good because i dont think bunnies get the attention they deserve anymore....so the new world will be amazing.

might as well hide in a cave and watch fox news (because you know they never lie) all day

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Originally posted by George Smiley Ok well who says Sheik Mohammed is their number 3? Those news papers you quoted? And where did they get their information from? All I am doing is presenting an alternative theory of al-Qaida (constructed by experts) that is different to the one the US government (and others) pushes on us. Dont you even find it a little bit interesting that experts are challenging what your government is telling you? I would find it pretty sad if you didn't...

Every news source in the world says he was number 3...i am sure everyone here would agree with me on AT LEAST that. I even posted a link to the BBC who said he was...and u seem to trust the BBC.

I understand what u are trying to say....and yes it makes sense...but to be honest i think all of these nut jobs should be gathered up...call them Al Qaeda, The Base or anything else...they are a threat to civil societies.

Even if Bin Laden was just a financier he is still GUILTY...so it really makes no difference if he planned it or payed for it...he still needs to come down...along with the rest of these idiotic dipshits who think they will go to paradise if they do this or that.

And no, i do not beleieve everything my government tells me, nor do i beleive every book i read (yes i do read lol) and no i dont beleive every documentrary i see because EVERYONE has their own ajenda...whether it is to further their politcal career, get more oil, become famous or sell a shit load of books.

Personally i gave up caring.....too much hype over it all...two thing i do know is, one,this world is majorly fucked...and, two, i cant do a thing about it.

All the ranting and raving Chomsky aka looney boy, Zinn aka sick bastard and Moore aka fat boy have done has brought zero results....the world will alway be fucked...i jus live in my little space and hope no one fucks with mine.

And to be honest...if what u say is true about Bin Laden, why is that Al Jazeera hasnt come out and made major remarks against what American gov. says? YOu would think they would. Just a thought.

Anyway...like i said...u could be right or you could be wrong...but does it change a damn thing? And please save the rheotic that if everyone cared then the world would be better or all that every vote count bullshit.....i have lived 30 years on this planet...and i have never seen anyone with the "TRUTH" make a shit of difference in the way things go down.

There will always be sickos in this world...there has been the begining of time and nothing will chnage that...and certainly not some BBC documentrary or kids on a trance site who claim to know the truth because they tripped upon the truth while trolling the internet. You dont know the truth, Opus doesnt know the truth, Renegade doesnt know the truth, OCC doesnt know the truth and i sure as shit dont know the truth of what shit happens behind the scenes....and to be honest i gave up trying to find it...it too damn depressing and i got better shit to do....

I used to be all into this crap, till i realized life is too damn short to worry....i live my life the best i can and dont hurt other people and thats all that anyone could ask for.

Sorry for flaming ya...i knew what u meant the whole time...it was jus a rainy day here and i felt like fucking with u all day...lol...sorry...

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 He hasn't actually implied bin Laden being more or less a cash man - he's directly come out and said pretty much just that.

Here's what i think (to clear anything up)

Al-Qaida is not the huge organisation we are led to believe. That idea came from a dodgy whitness who later said he made the whole thing up. But that idea stuck and it was useful for the American government to peddle that line. Bin Laden had gone to Pakistan during the Afghanistan war where he acted as a staging post for people passing through to fight the Russians. He then went to Afghanistan and helped (along with his number 2, who actually appears to be the number 1) set up training camps cos he was rich (construction companies). After Afghanistan, the training camps stayed and people still came to them (bin Laden did not run or finance ALL of them, nothing of the sort, there were many different groups there who had gone to fight the Russians) cos they wanted training so they could go back to their own countries to overthrow the governments (as they believed they could after seemingly defeating the Russians). Indeed bin Ladens objective is the overthrow of the Saudi royal family (as they rejected him in favour of the Americans defending Saudi Arabia from Saddam in the Gulf War). So bin Laden carried on hosting these training camps and giving them training for use in their own country. There were no plans to overthrow any countries other than those in the Middle East (and possibly wider Muslim world) These people who came to the camps cannot be considered members of "al-Qaida" cos that group did not exist. There was an "al-Qaida" hardcore which consisted of bin Laden and his close associates and that is all. The people at the training camps belonged to local terrorist groups with the objective of overthrowing their local governments. Some, terrorist groups did however harbour a desire to attack the United States (support for Israel, troops in the sacred sites of Islam, etc) and that is where Sheik Mohammed came into it. He had a plan to crash planes into the Twin Towers. He came to bin Laden (the man people came to when they needed funding for terrorist operations) and presented his plan. Bin Laden will have checked through the details of the plan and decided this was a good idea. Bin Laden's ideology stood to gain enourmously from the publicity of the attack (and also the likely subsequent actions of the US). Following the attack, the US flushed bin Laden and the terrorists at the training camps out of Afghanistan for the most part. What is left now is NOT an international network of al-Qaida terrorist cells in the form we are told exists by the governments. What exists now is the ideology (the "al-Qaida ideology") and that is what is dangerous. There are groups all over the world inspired by 9/11 and will probably have the idea to attack western nations (esp ones involved in Afghanistan or Iraq - see Spain) But these groups are not under the command of bin Laden and never have been. They are all autonomous and the reason we are led to believe they are part of an "al-Qaida network" is because of their ideology and possibly asking for bin Laden funding. In fact, many terrorist groups that have carried out attacks have done it in the "name of al-Qaida" which leads us obviously to believe they are members of al-Qaida. I dont think the threat is as dangerous as it is made out to be (it will be very hard to get the funding and planning for another 9/11 hopefully due to the operation in Afghanistan (which in my opinion was neccessary and justified)) but it will be a lot harder to deal with (if they are all individual and autonomous) but if they are all individual and autonomous then we always knew there were loads of terrorist groups out there. And if we also knew that the vast majority of terrorist groups "linked with al-Qaida" have no desire whatsoever to attack the West and it is their local governments that were the target the neo-cons would never be able to pursue the policies they are pursuing today - so they promote the image of al-Qaida that was made up by that dodgy whitness because it suits their objectives...

I thankyou!

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 Every news source in the world says he was number 3...i am sure everyone here would agree with me on AT LEAST that. I even posted a link to the BBC who said he was...and u seem to trust the BBC. I understand what u are trying to say....and yes it makes sense...but to be honest i think all of these nut jobs should be gathered up...call them Al Qaeda, The Base or anything else...they are a threat to civil societies. Even if Bin Laden was just a financier he is still GUILTY...so it really makes no difference if he planned it or payed for it...he still needs to come down...along with the rest of these idiotic dipshits who think they will go to paradise if they do this or that. And no, i do not beleieve everything my government tells me, nor do i beleive every book i read (yes i do read lol) and no i dont beleive every documentrary i see because EVERYONE has their own ajenda...whether it is to further their politcal career, get more oil, become famous or sell a shit load of books. Personally i gave up caring.....too much hype over it all...two thing i do know is, one,this world is majorly fucked...and, two, i cant do a thing about it. All the ranting and raving Chomsky aka looney boy, Zinn aka sick bastard and Moore aka fat boy have done has brought zero results....the world will alway be fucked...i jus live in my little space and hope no one fucks with mine. And to be honest...if what u say is true about Bin Laden, why is that Al Jazeera hasnt come out and made major remarks against what American gov. says? YOu would think they would. Just a thought. Anyway...like i said...u could be right or you could be wrong...but does it change a damn thing? And please save the rheotic that if everyone cared then the world would be better or all that every vote count bullshit.....i have lived 30 years on this planet...and i have never seen anyone with the "TRUTH" make a shit of difference in the way things go down. There will always be sickos in this world...there has been the begining of time and nothing will chnage that...and certainly not some BBC documentrary or kids on a trance site who claim to know the truth because they tripped upon the truth while trolling the internet. You dont know the truth, Opus doesnt know the truth, Renegade doesnt know the truth, OCC doesnt know the truth and i sure as shit dont know the truth of what shit happens behind the scenes....and to be honest i gave up trying to find it...it too damn depressing and i got better shit to do.... I used to be all into this crap, till i realized life is too damn short to worry....i live my life the best i can and dont hurt other people and thats all that anyone could ask for. Sorry for flaming ya...i knew what u meant the whole time...it was jus a rainy day here and i felt like fucking with u all day...lol...sorry...

I just spent fuckin ages writing that last post and when I finish I find you have posted just before saying you dont care!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Balls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally posted by George Smiley I just spent fuckin ages writing that last post and when I finish I find you have posted just before saying you dont care!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Balls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL sorry man...but if it makes u feel better i just painfully read your post...u need to use paragraphs...i think i broke a blood vessel in my eye reading it...lol

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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds. � Samuel Adams

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We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts � not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution. � Abraham Lincoln

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Originally posted by Trancer-X

ya well i am not them....i got a full day, everyday...they sat around making quotes, chopping wood and riding ponies...i got a jobby job and bills to pay...lol

The truth behind 9.11!

its a pointer to November...

November is the 9th month in name, and the 11th in time.

Thus November is 9.11

Problem solved.

I am pleased that I could clear up any confusion.

Now if only I could remember how much an electron weighed.

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Originally posted by tiesto14 ya well i am not them....i got a full day, everyday...they sat around making quotes, chopping wood and riding ponies...i got a jobby job and bills to pay...lol

OKay, so you occupy the majority of your time chasing the almighty dollar, but are you actually saying that makes it okay for you to turn a blind eye to the corruption, inequity and political misdirection?

You obviously spend considerable time posting on TA - so instead of perusing this board everyday, you could actually read some books (educate yourself) so that you could become a better informed and/or more knowledgeable citizen.

Also, if you knew more on the backgrounds and history of those who are now in power, it would also be much easier for you to make sense of both their artifices and their convoluted webs of deceit.

That's just my $.02

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I cannot help fearing that men may reach a point where they look on every new theory as a danger, every innovation as a toilsome trouble, every social advance as a first step toward revolution, and that they may absolutely refuse to move at all for fear of being carried off their feet. The prospect really does frighten me that they may finally become so engrossed in a cowardly love of immediate pleasures that their interest in their own future and in that of their descendants may vanish, and that they will prefer tamely to follow the course of their destiny rather than make a sudden energetic effort necessary to set things right. - Alexis Tocqueville, Democracy in America

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Originally posted by Trancer-X OKay, so you occupy the majority of your time chasing the almighty dollar, but are you actually saying that makes it okay for you to turn a blind eye to the corruption, inequity and political misdirection?

You say chasing the almighty dollar like that is a bad thing...didnt you and I have the convo about money once before?

I dont turn a blind eye to it all...i just dont get all enraged and frustrated like i used to...because it gets me nowhere.

I mean tell me this...out of everything u have read and everything u know...has it made one ounce of difference in foreign affairs? I didnt think so.

This world has always been corrupt..be it politics, religion or business..people are corrupt on all levels...yes i can read about it...but i wont go chasing down every thing i can to have a perfect knowledge on the subject....i personally have a life to live of my own and cant be head over heels in middle east affairs or how governments are doing X and Y.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X You obviously spend considerable time posting on TA - so instead of perusing this board everyday, you could actually read some books (educate yourself) so that you could become a better informed and/or more knowledgeable citizen.

TA is my down time from work and hectic life...it is an escape...the way TV is for people at night after a long days work....In other words fun time. I do read...i just started reading Robert Ingersol and Thomas Paine and am about to start reading the AntiChomskyReader.

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X Also, if you knew more on the backgrounds and history of those who are now in power, it would also be much easier for you to make sense of both their artifices and their convoluted webs of deceit. That's just my $.02

Your 2 cents is appreciated...and nice to see didnt turn to a flame war.

People of power get to be in power, more often than not, by deciet. I knew the backgrounds of all the people running for president this past election....i have a little knowledge...i just cant be bothered knowing it all....its all too depressing and time consuming.

I choose to enjoy life and not look down every corner and back alley for the lies and corruption....it makes life less enjoyable.

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