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-- im getting scared by the EU constitution
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| Originally posted by trancaholic This part I don't get entirely: Could the French parliament have ratified the constitution with no voting? If so, then this is truely ironic - finally Chirac's obnoxious pride lands him in trouble, but he's taking the whole of Europe down with him. |
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| Originally posted by trancaholic This part I don't get entirely: Could the French parliament have ratified the constitution with no voting? If so, then this is truely ironic - finally Chirac's obnoxious pride lands him in trouble, but he's taking the whole of Europe down with him. |
While it is obvious that Chirac wanted to use the constitution referendum for his own personal agenda, it seems that the french people are blinded by wanting to take him down in a way that they don't see how a "no" would cause much more harm to the whole of Europe, including themselves.
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| Originally posted by ShadoWolf What we have here in this case is the people revolting against the elitist political establishment, not unlike the French Revolution (which I believe was one of the greatest tragedies in Western civilization). |
LOL, just read about some research that have been done about french refferendums, and its basically that in every referendum that has been before, 3 factors has always decided the outcome:
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| Originally posted by St_Andrew the problem is that ppl dont think longer than their noose. Its impossible to create a treaty that 25 member countries can be perfectly satisfied with, you gotta compromise to get it to work. Ppl dont realize that (just see of whats happening in france), politicians on the other hand who is more into the politics, do realise it. Thats why almost every paliament is 70%+ for and most countries populations are against. Also, very few have read the constitution and know what it is about. Again, just see whats happening in france, the things they complain about in the constitution is already etablished in current treaties, but yet they vote no because they think that somehow will solve the "problem". Pure ignorance. Democracy do no good here. |
Anyway regardless of how the French vote, the Dutch vote next wedensday June 1st and it seems even more likely than the French that the Dutch will vote no.
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| Originally posted by zig Im sorry but this arguement is ridiculous. A European Constitution which will be set in place without the agreement of its citizens who were to be bound by it, will lack legitimacy. |
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| Anyway regardless of how the French vote, the Dutch vote next wedensday June 1st and it seems even more likely than the French that the Dutch will vote no. |
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| Originally posted by zig A European Constitution which will be set in place without the agreement of its citizens who were to be bound by it, will lack legitimacy. |
you should be given an exam on the constitution before you are allowed vote on it.
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| Originally posted by Michael19 you should be given an exam on the constitution before you are allowed vote on it. |
really interesting comments here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4566965.stm
Indeed some interesting read there.
Read through most of it, this are some of the most interesting i found.
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| I'm tired of people complaining that they aren't informed about the EU Constitution. It's all clearly set out in detail only a few clicks away on the internet. Do we seriously expect our governments to spoon feed us? Why aren't people honest enough to admit they simply can't be bothered to read and understand the document and will instead vote on their ingrained prejudices on what Europe does or does not represent. Depressingly, this leads to the disturbing conclusion that the referenda that have and will take place lack any credibility given the widespread public ignorance of what they are actually voting on. Nick Fraser, Jordan |
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| A no vote will be a sharp and justified rebuke to Euro politicians who have allowed small, economically backward countries into the EU which will undermine jobs and living standards John Widden, Aberdeen, Scotland |
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| As a non-citizen resident of France, I do not have the right to vote Sunday (if I did, I would vote "oui"), but I predict that France will vote "non" for the following reasons: the basic French social/economic model is no longer sustainable, but rather than accept the responsibility, the French people blame "liberalism"; the French people and parts of the ruling elite are nostalgic for the time when France was a powerful player in world affairs, and voting "non" provides the illusion of power and sovereignty and finally the extreme right has raised the spectre of "an Islamic invasion" Although I hope that the "oui" rallies at the last minute, I fear that the "non" will indeed carry the day. Bruce Epstein, Orsay, France |
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| I hope that the French vote No. I am pro-European but against this constitution. 1. It is incomprehensible. It should be simplified. 2. It can only be changed by unanimous vote. This latter point could lead to the break up of Europe in the future. Simon Wells, Brentwood England |
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| I gather from the coverage that the major complaint of the Non camp is that this constitution imposes an Anglo-Saxon model on the economy? Well guys, look across the English Channel - it's a model that evidently works a lot better then your statistic model. If you want more evidence, look further west at Ireland. 3% unemployment is the best guarantee of worker's rights you can possible have, beats any government socialist mandates anytime. Donal, Ireland |
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| I am French, and I personally do not get a single word of what this constitution means or implies. It actually seems to have been written for this purpose S�bastien Menecier, Limoges, France |
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| Originally posted by St_Andrew But ppl dont know what they are voting at!!! The main argument in france for example, seems to be that the constitution is too liberal. But the thing is that the constitution doesnt really change anything here, just look at the article i posted a while back, where you pretty much can see that everything thats about a liberal economy in the constitution is already implemented, IN THE ROME TREATY FROM 1957!!! So france really should leave the EU entirly if thats what they dont like about it, then they would also sooner or later discoer that they were wrong, a liberal economy would be best for france, but thats another discussion entirly. Thing is, either vote yes for the constitution or go out of the EU. Another reason ppl vote no, is because of the current government and that they want to protest it, also very mature way of decideing the future of europe. Neither of these arguments hold any water imo, if the argument would be that france is losing soverignity in some areas where they wont have a veto anymore, then i would somehow understand it, even tho i wouldnt agree with it (since its simply impossible to have 25 countries constantly unamineusly agreeing with each other). But the arguments they have now is simply ridiculous! So i dont think you can defend this refferrendum in any way. Yes, but that wont mean as much as a french no, even tho that referendum is equally as stupid, if not even more. |
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| Originally posted by zig The reason people will vote no is probably more to do with a general malaise with the entire European project and European Union politicians in general. A good example would be the Euro, the single currency was sold to people as an example of European Cooperation that would lead to a more prosperous Europe, and yet the opposite has happened, we have rising unemployment and economic stagnation in the Eurozone. Also the enlargement of Europe has left people feeling uneasy, with fears of immigration from new member states, and then we have the percieved rise of Islam throughout Europe and the probable entry of Turkey into the EU. But Europes political failure probably has its roots in the dismal overall economic performance of the last 30 years, and this is due mainly to over regulation and inflexible labour markets. Europes politicans have failed consistantly over the last 30 or so years to reform their economies particularily France and Germany and this has resulted in the present economic mess and inflexible markets and workers that they have pandered to in the past for political gain, so what we have today is an overall economic malaise due to mistakes in the past. So as Europe has stagnated our economic rivals have prospered, America and now other economies such as China and India have taken the advantage and bound ahead. There are many other reasons as to why people are fed up with the European project, they feel European politicans are out of reach and the communication of Treaties and new regulations leave a lot to be desired and this has been a consistant problem as far back as i can remember, people do not feel engaged by the European Project rather they feel alienated because of lack of proper communication with the people. Also their is a lack of democratic control about the European Union particularily about how Commissioners are appointed and how laws are drafted. It will be the politicans own fault if the Treaty on the new constitution is voted down, as i outlined in the reasons above. But this is more of a reason why all people in all member States should be allowed to vote on the European Constitution, to try and get some of the democracy back to the people instead of trusting in politicans who have failed so badly in their stewardship of the project so far. European politicans will have to think again if the people vote no today, what is the point of having a more powerful political union without the backing of the people. What the people want is the European economy to be successful and the EU in general to be more accessable to the ordinary person, without these the people will probably allways reject grandiose plans to make Europe politically more powerful. |
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| I gather from the coverage that the major complaint of the Non camp is that this constitution imposes an Anglo-Saxon model on the economy? Well guys, look across the English Channel - it's a model that evidently works a lot better then your statistic model. If you want more evidence, look further west at Ireland. 3% unemployment is the best guarantee of worker's rights you can possible have, beats any government socialist mandates anytime. Donal, Ireland |
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| I really hope that France will send a clear NO. This constitution is based on competitiveness, concurrence and social dumping, not on collaboration, fraternity and democratic control of institutions. The constitution issue just puts money before people. But I understand that the "French social model" where you live to enjoy time, and don't lose your life while earning it may sound odd to Anglo-Saxons. After all, an economy where the highest income comes from the stock exchange and not daily work and where 20% of the people are under the poverty level is perhaps your definition of a modern society. But it is not mine, and I'm convinced that next Sunday, France will lead the path toward an alternative. Guillaume, Angers, France |
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| Originally posted by trancaholic Can you tell me a constitution which was put in place with the full democratic agreement of the citizens who were to be bound by it? IMO we live in representative democracies because its the practical half-way point between full democracy and dictatorship, where citizens elect representatives on the basis of the values that these claim to fight for, and then leave the resolvement of complex issues to the representatives. The question of whether to adopt the constitution for any single memberstate is way too complex for it to be presented in the two minutes that constitute the attention span of the average news watcher. But, expecting a "no" from France and the Netherlands, I really really hope that the remaining states will continue down this path, with the option of the two sceptical countries to join later if they want to. |
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| Originally posted by zig Well can you tell me when twenty five nations have sat down in the recent past and agreed a single constitution without consulting the people that elected them.....it hasnt happened, what we have here is an unprecedented situation, unique, something that all citizens of Europe will live by for future generations. As i outlined in my reply to St_Andrew their is a general feeling across Europe that the project hasnt been a success so far, that we are going to quickly, that people feel left behind in these political ideals, all that has been promised has not been delivered and Europe as an economy is in a malaise and this will not change with the passing of a Constitution for political ideals. I am not a Eurosceptic btw, and have voted yes in all European treaties since i have been eligable to vote, but this is the reality of how people think, they see The European Union as something alien to them although it effects everything they do every single day, their is definatly a communication problem with the EU Administration, but at the end of the day the people that vote no are probably correct in some sense, in that it will be a wake up call for the EU as a whole that you cannot carry on a major project with global implications if ordinary people do not feel a part of in a real sense. But will the politicans learn from past mistakes and implement the reforms that are nescessary to make Europe a success...probably not, and will push on regardless alienating the people further and causeing more euroscepticism until the project untimatly fails due to lack of communication and consultation. Political ideals are well and good, but without economic success and proper reform to achieve them a European Constitution will mean little without the backing of the people. |
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| Originally posted by zig The reason people will vote no is probably more to do with a general malaise with the entire European project and European Union politicians in general. |
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| A good example would be the Euro, the single currency was sold to people as an example of European Cooperation that would lead to a more prosperous Europe, and yet the opposite has happened, we have rising unemployment and economic stagnation in the Eurozone. |
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| Also the enlargement of Europe has left people feeling uneasy, with fears of immigration from new member states, and then we have the percieved rise of Islam throughout Europe and the probable entry of Turkey into the EU. |
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| But Europes political failure probably has its roots in the dismal overall economic performance of the last 30 years, and this is due mainly to over regulation and inflexible labour markets. Europes politicans have failed consistantly over the last 30 or so years to reform their economies particularily France and Germany and this has resulted in the present economic mess and inflexible markets and workers that they have pandered to in the past for political gain, so what we have today is an overall economic malaise due to mistakes in the past. So as Europe has stagnated our economic rivals have prospered, America and now other economies such as China and India have taken the advantage and bound ahead. |
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| There are many other reasons as to why people are fed up with the European project, they feel European politicans are out of reach and the communication of Treaties and new regulations leave a lot to be desired and this has been a consistant problem as far back as i can remember, people do not feel engaged by the European Project rather they feel alienated because of lack of proper communication with the people. |
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| Also their is a lack of democratic control about the European Union particularily about how Commissioners are appointed and how laws are drafted. |
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| It will be the politicans own fault if the Treaty on the new constitution is voted down, as i outlined in the reasons above. |
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| But this is more of a reason why all people in all member States should be allowed to vote on the European Constitution, to try and get some of the democracy back to the people instead of trusting in politicans who have failed so badly in their stewardship of the project so far. |
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| European politicans will have to think again if the people vote no today, what is the point of having a more powerful political union without the backing of the people. |
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| What the people want is the European economy to be successful and the EU in general to be more accessable to the ordinary person, without these the people will probably allways reject grandiose plans to make Europe politically more powerful. |
some say it is very close!!!
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| Originally posted by St_Andrew What reforms do you think are necisarily? I mean really, the EU is a quite open instution, a lot more than we belive to think anyway. The problem is that ppl simply do no care about the EU, but then when it comes to a refferendum like this, they blame the politicians they havent been educated enough on the EU, when it really is no others fault than the ppl itself. That is how it works in sweden at least, all the info are there, all the ppl willing to share it to average joe is there etc, but average joe simply do not care. And im going to reply to your other posts soon too. |
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| Originally posted by zig Well can you tell me what happened in the European Parliment last week? |
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| Originally posted by zig I cant, but i can tell you what happened in the Irish parliment and even the British parliment last week, yes i know its more local and will get more coverage but that is not really the point, the point is that the European Parliment are making decisions everyday that people are unaware of, their is definatly a problem with communication between the people and the decision making Parliment, perhaps in Sweden your media and government agencies do a better job than we do in Ireland, but i know Ireland is not unique in this respect, i would say the same could be said of many countries. |
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| Originally posted by zig As regards reforms within the eurozone their are the obvious economic ones, over the last few decades Europe has slowly built up more inflexability in its labour markets particularily in Germany and France as i have pointed out allready, it has also become over regulated and again this has stifled enterprise to the economic advantage of others particularily America, and this has been a political failure that has seen the Eurozone economy stagnate where average unemployment is nearly 10% across the Eurozone, hardly an achievement. And we consistantly underperform the US in growth rates year after year. |
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| Originally posted by zig But other reforms are needed across the Eurozone of which we are well aware the CAP being the obvious one, year after year it is renegotiated to seem that something is being done, but at the end of the day it is still there propping up uneconomic enterprises all over Europe, this is hardly reform that will make us economic leaders. |
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| Originally posted by zig The bigger Economies of Europe renegotiated the rules about government borrowing only a couple of months ago because it didnt suit them but lectured the smaller economies about fiscal rectitude the year previous (Ireland got a nice lecture from the European Central bank) so it is no wonder people are sceptical. |
... and it's a wrap.
http://www.france2.fr/
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| Originally posted by trancaholic ... and it's a wrap. http://www.france2.fr/ |
I'm just being economical with the threads. If we all started them in your shooting spree fashion, this place would quickly deteriorate into the COR.
Besides, my news was on actual vote counts (which indicate a higher proportion of "Non"-votes) rather than a silly exit poll.
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| Originally posted by trancaholic I'm just being economical with the threads. If we all started them in your shooting spree fashion, this place would quickly deteriorate into the COR. Besides, my news was on actual vote counts (which indicate a higher proportion of "Non"-votes) rather than a silly exit poll. |
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| Originally posted by St_Andrew and i dont know french so i just thought that it was exit polls too! |
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| Originally posted by trancaholic Oh, yeah, Marie you didn't have anything to do with this disaster - did you? I trust that you did your part in trying to prevent it... |
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