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-- Think the banning of smoking is over? Think again!
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social costs of 16K deaths outweight the tax revenues on tobacco.

if half those people work, imagine the lost productivity.

well, theyre banning smoking where it can negatively affect others whether the smoking person wants to or not. i am pro the designated closed indoor area for smoking and if the goverment will decide to ban tobacco use completely then it'll be more of a "choice" issue which i will oppose.

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Originally posted by malek social costs of 16K deaths outweight the tax revenues on tobacco. if half those people work, imagine the lost productivity.

i wonder how many people die of heart disease due to eating fast food. Should we save those people as well?

Where does the save yourself from yourself mentality stop?

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Originally posted by Goashem well, theyre banning smoking where it can negatively affect others whether the smoking person wants to or not. i am pro the designated closed indoor area for smoking and if the goverment will decide to ban tobacco use completely then it'll be more of a "choice" issue which i will oppose.

ok so we agree. They should have DSRs and outdoor patio smoking and the zealots should bugger off...

right?

I dont like smoking either. Im a non smoker. But i do see it in a bigger light. This is trampling people's rights and will have implications in wasy we dont even know yet.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 i wonder how many people die of heart disease due to eating fast food. Should we save those people as well? Where does the save yourself from yourself mentality stop?

I think they should tax it, I would eat less fast food, and help me loose some pounds

from what i understand jayx youre a conservative guy, and conservatives are highly "no-no" on the drugs issue. yet the pro-drugs use exactly the same arguement you are using right now. so whats the deal ?

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Originally posted by Goashem from what i understand jayx youre a conservative guy, and conservatives are highly "no-no" on the drugs issue. yet the pro-drugs use exactly the same arguement you are using right now. so whats the deal ?

although i vote conservative for fiscal issues i am also a libertarian when it comes to rights and freedoms.

There is not one credible party in canada that totally stands for what i believe in.

Basically fiscal responsiblity and a free and liberal thinking society. Sadly even the liberals of this country want to try and restrict your civil liberties at every turn.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 ok so we agree. They should have DSRs and outdoor patio smoking and the zealots should bugger off... right? I dont like smoking either. Im a non smoker. But i do see it in a bigger light. This is trampling people's rights and will have implications in wasy we dont even know yet.

yip as long as people cant be affected by its their choice. but i personaly dont like the patio smoking cuz it is outdoors where people walk by.

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Originally posted by Goashem yip as long as people cant be affected by its their choice. but i personaly dont like the patio smoking cuz it is outdoors where people walk by.

again if thats enough to ruin your health you are going to die anyways...

and if thats enough to ruin your day you are probably about to hang yourself...

so either way you are screwed.

heh its not that extreme but it does annoy me. its not like im making a movement about it or write a letter to the government. but if the goverment decides to ban that, im all for it. just one of those choices i make

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Originally posted by rabbitjoker CBC news (great news organization btw)

you're joking right?

http://www.cbcwatch.ca/



watch the NewsHour with Jim Lehrer instead

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/

i could care less...i dont smoke and it doesnt bother me one bit. I personally don't see the club scene dying cuz of a lack of smoking...maybe if they banned alcohol...but not cigs.

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Originally posted by samhouse i could care less...i dont smoke and it doesnt bother me one bit. I personally don't see the club scene dying cuz of a lack of smoking...maybe if they banned alcohol...but not cigs.

Ive noticed a few changes just based on the current laws. And once they are done with cigs dont worry, fast food and booze will be next.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 fiscal responsiblity (fiscal conservatism) and a free and liberal thinking society (social liberalism).

Perfection.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 There is not one credible party in canada that totally stands for what i believe in.

yes there is

http://www.freedomparty.ca/htm/en/home.htm

http://www.freedomparty.on.ca/

ok...so this is how it pans out if you look it from a neutral point of view...and this is based on a complete ban on smoking...yup...no more smoking which is what the gov. is trying to achieve..
the money lost from revenues,taxes,unemployed ppl from the tobacco industry etc etc will be more than compensated
by the following:
1. money not lost on health care for tobacco related issues
2. the lives not lost to the same issues, now imagine if these ppl can work and earn and add to the nations GDP etc etc...not to mention the taxes they generate from their incomes..and the money they will spend on food,rent etc
3. overall improvement in the enviroment...leading to everyone being more healthier..living longer lives...earning more money...and generating more taxes...increase in GDP (you get the drift..its a snowball effect)
4. there r so many more reasons and arguments to support it but the above are sufficient...this is rough and pretty watered down idea of how a cost-benefit analysis is done

again...this argument can only really come into effect if there is a total ban on smoking..which i gather is what the gov. is trying to achieve...
the point about fast food and heart related deaths was brought up and though it is true...the ban on smoking is only to eliminate " the biggest preventable cause of death"..they are starting at the top and working their down i would imagine..
as for the matter of choice..well heres a thought...why is it that when it comes to criminals and crime, that defense is not used and we all agree that if one steals,kills etc etc he should be punished...well its because theres a law against it and we all abide by it...now there will be a law against amoking and we should comply by it too...for reasons shown above.

the one real concern should be about encouraging ppl to run our lives...its all good when its for the overall good of everyone..repeat..over all good (there r losses but as long as the benefits outweigh them..its all good) but wht if it eventually leads to ppl in higher places running our entire lives...but who is to say that doent happen already ...think about it

p.s. im sure im missed some point above and made some mistakes...feel free to point them out...cheers

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Originally posted by Sly_Guy That's a good point Jay, but I have to say the science of your arguement is not at all true. Cigarettes smoke is FAR more dangerous to humans than car fumes. If you watched the national tonight you would be able to draw that exact same conclusion, as there was a story on smog causing deaths, and after interviewing a doctor, claimed that cigarettes are far more dangerous to the public than smog. It went as far as to say smog had virtually no effect of the respiratory system of moderately physically fit people.

um...are you sure that wasn't a corporate auto industry advert telling you that?

the smoking bans have gone as far as they can go without infringing on people's rights. We've been pushed outside, which I understand. But the minute anyone starts telling me I can't smoke outside is when the line has to be drawn. You have the whole bar to yourself...if you don't want a hint of smoke, don't come outside to a bar patio.

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Originally posted by Aitizaz ok...so this is how it pans out if you look it from a neutral point of view...and this is based on a complete ban on smoking...yup...no more smoking which is what the gov. is trying to achieve.. the money lost from revenues,taxes,unemployed ppl from the tobacco industry etc etc will be more than compensated by the following: 1. money not lost on health care for tobacco related issues 2. the lives not lost to the same issues, now imagine if these ppl can work and earn and add to the nations GDP etc etc...not to mention the taxes they generate from their incomes..and the money they will spend on food,rent etc 3. overall improvement in the enviroment...leading to everyone being more healthier..living longer lives...earning more money...and generating more taxes...increase in GDP (you get the drift..its a snowball effect) 4. there r so many more reasons and arguments to support it but the above are sufficient...this is rough and pretty watered down idea of how a cost-benefit analysis is done again...this argument can only really come into effect if there is a total ban on smoking..which i gather is what the gov. is trying to achieve... the point about fast food and heart related deaths was brought up and though it is true...the ban on smoking is only to eliminate " the biggest preventable cause of death"..they are starting at the top and working their down i would imagine.. as for the matter of choice..well heres a thought...why is it that when it comes to criminals and crime, that defense is not used and we all agree that if one steals,kills etc etc he should be punished...well its because theres a law against it and we all abide by it...now there will be a law against amoking and we should comply by it too...for reasons shown above. the one real concern should be about encouraging ppl to run our lives...its all good when its for the overall good of everyone..repeat..over all good (there r losses but as long as the benefits outweigh them..its all good) but wht if it eventually leads to ppl in higher places running our entire lives...but who is to say that doent happen already ...think about it p.s. im sure im missed some point above and made some mistakes...feel free to point them out...cheers

So you are willing to have the government tell you what is right and wrong in order to improve overall efficiency of society and productivity? You should go rent the movie "1984".

So what about when the government deems clubbing to be anti-productive? What if we are only allowed to eat government issued food rations since anything with too much salt or cholestorol is deemed harmful to society? Seriously, what you are presenting here is a scary scenario. I know some people dont like smoking but the way they are thinking when it comes to this topic has very scary precident setting implications for a whole host other things that will come back to affect their lives.

this is why as a non smoker i cannot support the discrimination against and trampling of smoker's rights. I know that if they get away with this, one day they will use the same model to control the things i enjoy. It's one thing to try and protect non smokers (to a reasonable point that is), its another thing to try and save people from themselves. Adults should be given the facts and allowed to decide for themselves. If people decide to smoke, thats their business. If i decide to have a big mac, thats my business. And neither of us need some 2-bit ex smoker who suddenly saw the light to try and tell us differently.

lol..dude....u seem hellbent on not agreeing to the points that have been in made in support of the argument...and no offense but u seem also to be somehwat of a conspiracy theorist...with all those 'what if' scenarios....but you really are making a mountain of a molehill...if you're really against the govt. telling you what to do...why is that you mention only the explicit choices?

with what you are saying...heres a thought...we live in a society where stealing,killing,beating your wife and kids etc etc is against the law...and u get punished if u get caught doing it....thr was a time when beating your wife wasnt against the law...frowned upon but not illegal; smoking is pretty much the same thing...its been frowned upon for many yrs...and now they r taking steps to banish it...were you against the law protecting a womens rights too? or that made sense to you because we all agree that its not right to beat them etc...but u dont like the fact that smokers should no longer smoke...personal preference?

all this really has nothing to do with the real argument going on...its pretty simple...look at it for it just is...they are trying to eliminate " the biggest preventable cause of death"...and why not?


P.S. i used to be a smoker but i quit and for the right reasons too...and i support this new campign for it really is...

beating your wife is a little different than having a smoke or drinking. The government is not trying to protect others anymore. The activists are using it as a guise to promote their own zealous agenda. They are hellbent on telling YOU how to live even if it doesnt affect them. Its the same mentality as people who spread the word of religion. Their way is right and yours isnt just because they said so.

And you may not realize it but this will have an impact on you in the future. Especially with the types of arguements being used here. I often find it interesting that those left leaning people who often resent religious organizations for trying to inflict their beliefs on others actually do the exact same thing in different ways. "our way is right and yours is wrong" is the wrong approach.

Let people live their lives. If they want to smoke in certain places that you dont have to be in then let them. If they want to have a happy meal let them. If they want to ride a bike without a helmet, thats their business.

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P.S. i used to be a smoker but i quit and for the right reasons too...and i support this new campign for it really is...

aaah so you are one of them

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If people decide to smoke, thats their business. If i decide to have a big mac, thats my business. And neither of us need some 2-bit ex smoker who suddenly saw the light to try and tell us differently.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 yeah but it has moved on to even more bans so the topic is not going away anytime soon.

"More bans"??

Is this not that same ban voted on YEARS ago that's just finally coming to fruition?
This isn't news at all...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r "More bans"?? Is this not that same ban voted on YEARS ago that's just finally coming to fruition? This isn't news at all...

patio smoking bans and banning smoking in enterances is brand new. It has nothing to do with the law that was just passed.

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Let people live their lives. If they want to smoke in certain places that you dont have to be in then let them. If they want to have a happy meal let them. If they want to ride a bike without a helmet, thats their business.

so assuming there wasnt a law against drunk driving...if ppl wanted to drink and drive you would be all for it right? it shouldnt affect the rest of us because we don't have to take the same highway,route,road etc as them right? ...do you know what you are really saying? do you really wanna go down this road? ( no pun intended)

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