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-- British police murder innocent Brazialian
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It's easy for you to talk, but try to understand that suicide bombers are the most difficult/trickiest problem security personnel/police can ever encounter. You're in a huge dilemma: You hardly ever know for sure that the suspicious person is actually about to carry out an attack (unless you can clearly see both his belt and his intention to immediately blow himself up). On the other hand you've got only one way to stop a possible attack, and that is by neutralizing him the way the London policemen did.t
If you guys can come up with the ideal solution to this problem , go on, I'm sure people all aover the world would be interested to hear it.
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| Originally posted by TranceGiant It's easy for you to talk, but try to understand that suicide bombers are the most difficult/trickiest problem security personnel/police can ever encounter. You're in a huge dilemma: You hardly ever know for sure that the suspicious person is actually about to carry out an attack (unless you can clearly see both his belt and his intention to immediately blow himself up). On the other hand you've got only one way to stop a possible attack, and that is by neutralizing him the way the London policemen did.t If you guys can come up with the ideal solution to this problem , go on, I'm sure people all aover the world would be interested to hear it. |
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| Originally posted by Goashem demon is that marduk in your avatar??? that guy sucks! worst player! anyway, what the hell was the guy thinking? lets run from the cops whats the worst that can happen?! |
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| Originally posted by TranceGiant It's easy for you to talk, but try to understand that suicide bombers are the most difficult/trickiest problem security personnel/police can ever encounter. You're in a huge dilemma: You hardly ever know for sure that the suspicious person is actually about to carry out an attack (unless you can clearly see both his belt and his intention to immediately blow himself up). On the other hand you've got only one way to stop a possible attack, and that is by neutralizing him the way the London policemen did.t If you guys can come up with the ideal solution to this problem , go on, I'm sure people all aover the world would be interested to hear it. |
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| Michael19 "Heard he worked as an electrican and was going to work. Murdering scum. Should be given life. Ken livingstone has some fuckn cheeck aswell. |
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| metalgearsolid "I don't really blame the London police they are inexperianced with guns and handling terror as well as most countries." |
My take on it...
Sorry Michael19 but the police, imo, have done nothing wrong whatsoever. This is an unfortunate accident but I believe the police acted correctly. The target has come out of a house that was under surveilance. Being under surveilance means you are watched, not that you arrest them. They followed him towards the tube station and were suspicious about the clothing he was wearing. As he approached the train station they said "stop police" at which point he ran off into the train station and onto the tube. Now I'm sorry but given everything that's happened you dont run. The police had no choice whatsoever but to suspect him of being a suicide bomber (and running onto the tube would have led them to believe he was about to set it off at that moment) He was shot in the head as that is what the police have been advised to do incase they risk setting the bomb off by shooting at the body (as they would normaly be trained to do in the 'usual' situation)
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| Originally posted by occrider Huh? How is my argument that since we don't know all the facts at hand we shouldn't rush to judgement imply that I've been watching too much tv crime dramas? Like I said, it would be nice to have the account from the police officers you know just so we have perspective from all sides. |
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| Originally posted by Michael19 ..They thought he was going with the conspirators later on? If they felt he had no bomb and wasnt a threat why shoot him 5 times in the head? |
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| Originally posted by Massive84 a good terrorist would blown him self instantly if he was in the train..he wouldn't fucking wait till he got pushed down |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley My take on it... Sorry Michael19 but the police, imo, have done nothing wrong whatsoever. This is an unfortunate accident but I believe the police acted correctly. The target has come out of a house that was under surveilance. Being under surveilance means you are watched, not that you arrest them. They followed him towards the tube station and were suspicious about the clothing he was wearing. As he approached the train station they said "stop police" at which point he ran off into the train station and onto the tube. Now I'm sorry but given everything that's happened you dont run. The police had no choice whatsoever but to suspect him of being a suicide bomber (and running onto the tube would have led them to believe he was about to set it off at that moment) He was shot in the head as that is what the police have been advised to do incase they risk setting the bomb off by shooting at the body (as they would normaly be trained to do in the 'usual' situation) |
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 God forbid someone was surveilling you and followed you to the train station and shot you five times on suspicion rather than haul you into the nearest police house. Let alone let you go into a crowded subway. |
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| I notice that some of the terrorists wear baseball caps so I guess we should watch out for those people seeing is that they fit the profile. |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley Tell me what you would have done different? And tell me what would be going through your head if you were one of the policemen? |
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| If they were Burberry caps I would imagine that policy might generate quite a bit of public support! |
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| Originally posted by TheDemon What? marduk is the best! we shall challenge eachother and once i defeat you, you will cry like a little girl! muahahhahahahahha! |
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 If I were a cop I wouldn't endanger anyones life by letting a suspect enter any crowded area. I would just have picked him up and brought him in for questioning. After hours of interrogating he would have either offered some valuable information or he can just walk since I already would have known he was no threat. People make it seem as if their lives are private and they are not. |
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 "As the man got on the train I looked at his face. He looked from left to right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, like a cornered fox. He looked absolutely petrified," said Whitby. "He sort of tripped but they were hotly pursuing him and couldn't have been more than two or three feet behind him at this time. "He half-tripped, was half-pushed to the floor. The policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand, he held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him. 'He looked like a cornered fox' |
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| Originally posted by hardcore trancer I feel sorry for all the muslims in London right now  .Their lives wont never be the same. |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley He was under surviellance, it is quite possible he only became a suspect when police told him to stop and he ran off. I fail to see how you would "bring him in for questioning" when he has shown no reason to think he would have gone along with it, he would still have ran away wherever the police challenged him, and therefore would still have been shot |
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| Originally posted by Dervish If was on a train and a suspect who just ran from armed cops (just after a few people blew themselfs up on trains). I'd want the cops to shoot him too personnally. It's understandable, if he was a bomber he could take out loads of people. He's run from cops asking him to stop onto a train, that due cause in my book. The cop chasing him onto the train must have been pretty brave if you ask me jumping onto someone he thought was a bomer. But the British cops don't just randomly shoot people. If they do they will get a rapeing over it. I think it should be looked at as an accident. Remember if he was part of a cell say 3 others he could have been meeting them. Not going to a station to blow himself up. They stopped him when he went to a station. |
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| Summary Execution: A summary execution is a type of extrajudicial punishment in which a person suspected of subversive or other criminal activity is killed, often at the time and place of their being discovered, and hence usually without any meaningful inquiry or investigation. Summary executions typically occur in a theatre of war, or in a protracted riot or other context of profound instability where a functioning criminal justice system is unavailable. To define further, they also typically occur outside; bringing the accused to an office or lockup, or before the finders' superior, is generally a prelude to an inquest or trial. Summary executions are often carried out using expedient means such as a firearm, though hanging, stabbing, stoning, and decapitation have also been used. Poisoning, electrocution, and other tortures requiring controlled conditions and would be impractical. They are often a tactic of early resort employed by groups involved in guerrilla warfare. |
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| The US Government is looking into ways to expand the role of special operations forces to include sending them on covert missions to capture or kill al-Qaeda leaders around the world, the New York Times newspaper has reported. According to the report, which quoted senior Pentagon advisers, these missions might be carried out without informing the governments of the countries involved. US 'considers assassination squads' {BBCNews online article from Tuesday, 13 August, 2002} |
I'm not going to go into the bullshit definitions war with you but you know fine well that reacting to a threat (percived or real) is different to an execution.
And so far it looks like he ran because he was on a dodgy visa and they had started doing checks at tube stations.
>LINK<
Though he did get there on a bus which is strange if they thought he was a threat and were following him.
But the fact remains they asked first and shot second. NOT the other way around.
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 You fail to realize that there were more than just a few PLAIN CLOTHES officers that could have subdued their suspect to take him in. This doesn't like like less than six PLAINCLOTHES officers were assigned to follow him. |
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 People "rushed to judgement" thinking that that man was a terrorist and deserved what he got until Scotland Yard said he was not a terrorist and not connected to the bombings and was a regrettable mistake. Should you continue to trust the same people that shot an innocent man in cold blood to tell you the "truth" or "facts" next time around? I don't think so. Living in New York I've always had a distrust for the NYPD's tactics. Although there are a few officers that make the barrel spoiled there are some that I know personally that just want to retire and get their pension even if it means they stay a patrolman for 20 years. But when you have a situation regarding the firing of a pistol and a death then right away do you have the spin doctors at work. There will always be people that question a situation such as that. |
You seem to be implying that they take some kind of morbid satisfaction in killing innocent people. Because obviously there�s nothing more fun than chasing a suspected suicide bomber and then jumping on him praying like hell that he doesn�t detonate his vest. And if that guy wasn�t actually a suicide bomber � eh a good time was had by all so it�s ok. | quote: |
This will never sit right with me no matter what spin Occ tries to say about it. |
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Final minutes of the innocent man mistaken for a terrorist By Daniel McGrory IT TOOK 26 minutes for Jean Charles de Menezes to get from his flat in Tulse Hill to the entrance of Stockwell Tube station. In that time the 27-year-old electrician did not appear to realise that a team of 30 Scotland Yard officers were following his every move. Police were already staking out the redbricked block of flats in Scotia Road after the address had been found in documents left in one of the abandoned rucksacks from the abortive attacks last Thursday. There was also partially destroyed evidence that the crop-haired bomber in the sweatshirt with a New York logo on the front, seen in CCTV pictures fleeing Oval station, had recently stayed at the Scotia Road property. There are eight separate flats in the block. When Mr Menezes emerged from the communal front door just after 9.30am, the police must have realised from the photographs they carried that he was not one of the four bombers. Even so they decided that he was �a likely candidate� to follow because of his demeanour and colour, so one group set off on foot after him. As he waited at a nearby bus stop the reconnaissance team sought urgent instructions on whether to challenge him right away or let him board a bus. They were worried about the dark, bulky, padded jacket he had zipped up on such a muggy morning. The decision was taken to let him go, in the hope that he might lead his shadows to at least one of the bombers. The bus journey was slow, as on any other Friday morning, but Mr Menezes seemed to be in no hurry. He was heading to Willesden Green to fix an alarm system. When it was obvious that he was getting off at the stop nearest Stockwell Tube station, the team on the bus alerted a three-man team of marksmen to move in. As Mr Menezes waited to cross the busy main road, the decision was taken at Scotland Yard that he must not be allowed to get to the platform. The marksmen were told: if you think he has explosives under his coat and he fails to heed shouted warnings, then you must shoot to kill. As the three plain-clothes officers closed in on Mr Menezes, they say that they screamed their first warning that they were armed police. Their version is that he turned, ran into the station concourse, vaulted the ticket barriers and reached a waiting train before they could catch him. They shot him five times in the head when they believed that he was trying to trigger a bomb. His cousin, Alex Alves, claims in one account that Mr Menezes was �playing around with a friend in a game of chase outside the station�. The police insist that he was alone during the entire journey. Another family member said that he had recently been attacked and robbed in that area by a gang of young white men and thought the plain-clothes officers were muggers. By far the most controversial claim comes from a number of witnesses who have cast doubt on police statements that they shouted a warning or identified themselves to the suspect before opening fire. Lee Ruston, 32, who was on the platform, said that he did not hear any of the three shout �police� or anything like it. Mr Ruston, a construction company director, said that he saw two of the officers put on their blue baseball caps marked �police� but that the frightened electrician could not have seen that happen because he had his back to the officers and was running with his head down. Mr Ruston remembers one of the Scotland Yard team screaming into a radio as they were running. Mr Ruston thought the man that they were chasing �looked Asian� as he tumbled on to a waiting Northern Line train. Less than a minute later Mr Menezes was pinned to the floor of the carriage by two men while a third officer fired five shots into the base of his skull. Again, Mr Ruston says that no verbal warning was given. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...1707480,00.html |
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| Originally posted by Fir3start3r Whether he knew English or not, if you see armed officers chasing your ass, yelling at you, you STOP. Who the hell runs??? I'm sure that's exactly what the officers were thinking too when they made their decision. However, 5 bullets is a little excessive. |
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| Originally posted by Dervish ...And so far it looks like he ran because he was on a dodgy visa and they had started doing checks at tube stations. >LINK< Though he did get there on a bus which is strange if they thought he was a threat and were following him. But the fact remains they asked first and shot second. NOT the other way around. |
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| Originally posted by Dervish Would you like to subdue someone you thought had a bomb on them they were planning to blow up? I personally (if they guy ran ONTO A TRAIN from the POLICE WHO IDENTIFIED THEMSELFS) wouldn't try to give him the chance in the climate there was then and is now. I know it changes us and thats what they want but thats the way it has to be really. |
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| Originally posted by occrider Right so just because they�re police officers they�re already guilty as charged. Yup anything they say must be a lie because, you know, they�re not normal people like you or I. Therefore we obviously don�t need to hear their version of the events, because there�s no possible way that they could be innocent! You seem to be implying that they take some kind of morbid satisfaction in killing innocent people. Because obviously there�s nothing more fun than chasing a suspected suicide bomber and then jumping on him praying like hell that he doesn�t detonate his vest. And if that guy wasn�t actually a suicide bomber � eh a good time was had by all so it�s ok. |
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| Oh gee that�s cute. Let�s see what kind of horrible �spin� I�m propagating: �I'm not arguing for their guilt or innocence. I'm arguing against any kind of premature judging with so little facts.� Yup I am a tricky one. Saying that we should get all the facts, and get perspectives from all sides of this debate. I should be ashamed of myself. Clearly we should only be looking at one side of this debate and any arguments to the contrary are evil evil spin! |
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| So Scotland Yard made the decision to let him board the bus and then apprehend him when he was approaching the tube station, not the agents in the field. Furthermore, the agents were told to shoot to kill if they believed he was going to detonate his explosives. At this point the agents followed proper procedures and orders from Scotland Yard. The only questionable procedural failure is whether the agents identified themselves as police when they were chasing the subject. If they were wearing clothing that identified them as police, perhaps in the confusion they only yelled for the guy to stop and failed to say that they were police. Or maybe the guy was simply running because of his visa expiration. Were mistakes made? Probably. Are they guilty of bad judgment? Sure. Are they murderers? I�m not sure at this point. |
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| Originally posted by ShadoWolf ...and yet you make no mention of the victims of their bombs. Clearly, you support terrorism and radical Islam's plot to conquer Europe. |
Here's a vid of the Madrid bombings. The law enforcement officials have an obligation to do everything in their power to prevent things like this from happening. Britain has clearly been on edge over the past 2 weeks. Obviously a mistake was made, but the potential consequences could've been far worse. Fact is the guy looked suspicious and "bolted" for the train. It's a situation that none of us should really judge as we probably would've taken similar actions if it were our asses on the line.
http://www.terrorize.dk/misc/311/311.trainbombs.tv2.wmv
Very sobering.
Why ride past Brixton and board at Stockwell? He was heading towards Willesden Green which means he would have to transfer once at Green Park. Both Brixton and Stockwell are on the same line with Brixton being the end of the line.
Another family member said that he had recently been attacked and robbed in that area by a gang of young white men and thought the plain-clothes officers were muggers.
Final minutes of the innocent man mistaken for a terrorist
Mr Menezes' cousin Mr Pereira said the 27-year-old was from the town of Gonzaga in Minas Gerais state, and had lived in London legally for at least three years and spoke excellent English.
The BBC's correspondent in Brazil, Tom Gibb, said Mr Menezes had lived for a time in a slum district of Sao Paulo and that could explain why he had run from the police.
Family condemns police shooting
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| Originally posted by Shakka ..The law enforcement officials have an obligation to do everything in their power to prevent things like this from happening... |
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| Britain has clearly been on edge over the past 2 weeks. Obviously a mistake was made, but the potential consequences could've been far worse. Fact is the guy looked suspicious and "bolted" for the train. It's a situation that none of us should really judge as we probably would've taken similar actions if it were our asses on the line. |
Police-Shot Brazilian Had Expired Visa
More truth comes to the story...
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Police-Shot Brazilian Had Expired Visa Brazilian electrician Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, shot dead in London, may have run from police because of his visa situation. Police killed the man during the hunt for the subway bombers. Photo by news.bbc.co.uk Politics: 25 July 2005, Monday. The Brazilian man shot dead by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber in south London had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, officials say. Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC reported. The electrician had come to the UK on a student visa, which allows people to work for a small number of hours. Relatives of Menezes deny his visa had expired and are considering suing over the Stockwell Tube shooting. Meanwhile, detectives are still hunting for the men who attempted to blow up three London Tube trains and a bus last Thursday. Three men have been arrested so far, but it is thought the four would-be bombers are still free and may have access to more explosives. There is also speculation about a fifth bomber, following the discovery of a backpack containing a device in a west London park on Saturday. |
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| Originally posted by hardcore trancer clearly your an idiot and a racist.and you love calling everyone terrorist if they dont agree with you.why dont you feel sorry for the Iraqis that get blown up daily there?but it is ok to you because those are muslims dying and it is no concern to you.so stfu and get lost you racist pig. |
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