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-- Reasons not to pay for music
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| quote: |
| Originally posted by DC- So if you think there's a lot of money being made here, think again. Every time you download, you are hurting the artist more so than you can imagine. |
The majority of people who share and distribute music on p2p networks are never going to buy the music anyway, even if you shutdown the networks, do you really think music sales are going to rise?
They simply dont care about the music they share, they just like listening to it. They're never going to pay for it if you take their networks away from them. Forcing people to pay for music wont work.
At the same time, those who care enough to buy the records and cds, will continue to do so. Everyone on this forum can access illegal music sources if they could be bothered to, but you dont see record sales decreasing rapidly do you? The people who love the music will continue to buy it legally.
People sharing on p2p networks are never going to buy the music in the first place, so you cant force them to.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by DC- Downloading music is affecting the entire music industry as a whole, pop and edm. EDM is taking a bigger hit right now because we are not talking about millions of sales but rather hundreds and sometimes thousands. How much does a EDM producer make? In general, 50% of profits. I'll give you a very realistic figure in how much that actually is. Main Press (822 units): 1434 EUR Artwork: 29.95 EUR Mastering: 125 EUR Total Costs: 1588.95 EUR Total Revenue: 822 x 3.25 EUR (This is how much Astral gives per vinyl) = 2671.50 Total Profit: 2671.50 EUR - 1588.95 EUR = 1082.50 EUR Your Share (50%): 541.25 EUR Note that this does not include any remix fees (if there are any). If you have a remix on the flip that happens to cost 500 euro (which is very common nowadays), you end up making next to nothing on the release. So if you think there's a lot of money being made here, think again. Every time you download, you are hurting the artist more so than you can imagine. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by stevieboy32808 Speaking on the naive side, if the artist is making peanuts to begin with then what difference would it make after someone downloads his or her track? Don't they make music for the love of music? For example when some TA's post their songs on these forums they don't expect any money, but rather constructive criticism to make better tracks in the future. And if an aritst IS doing it for the money, then let's face it, trance music isn't where the "green" is. This further enforces my notion from before in which artists do it for the love of music and not so much for the money. As far as the recording industry is concerned I am completely inexperienced on how this works. A TA mentioned earlier that downloading mp3's hurts the artists ability to make more records. Does the artist get a brand new studio everytime he/she makes a single? Can't they they use the same studio to release more songs, sarcastically speaking? Also, explain to me this: Since when have there been "suits" (corporate stooges) in trance music? I thought most labels were owned by mostly trance producers themselves? |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by swisstoni_uk The majority of people who share and distribute music on p2p networks are never going to buy the music anyway, even if you shutdown the networks, do you really think music sales are going to rise? They simply dont care about the music they share, they just like listening to it. They're never going to pay for it if you take their networks away from them. Forcing people to pay for music wont work. At the same time, those who care enough to buy the records and cds, will continue to do so. Everyone on this forum can access illegal music sources if they could be bothered to, but you dont see record sales decreasing rapidly do you? The people who love the music will continue to buy it legally. People sharing on p2p networks are never going to buy the music in the first place, so you cant force them to. |
I think most of us have been ignorant downloaders at some point but the ones who actually have capabilities to think and do something else than sit on their thumbs and whistle, are also the ones who have decided to start supporting their fav producers in the best way they can, buy buying/paying for the music they get. I spend several hundred, even thousand(s) of euros a year to buy the music i like and haven't been downloading much of anything for years (i don't like the official digital downloads at all, i prefer to get hold of the actual records with coverart and such, whether it's CD or 12").. except for unsigned "amateur" tracks by friends and fellow tranceaddicts and some freebies here and there. Otherwise i have no problems whatsoever to live without downloading illegal mp3s several gigs a week. I admit i did that back in the day but in the end i got so sick of the "OMG i have a 0-day release OMG i'm 1337" attitude it presented i wanted to stop completely and head straight for the real things instead.
Buying all the music you like isn't cheap and not even close for being easy after all the costs of everyday life.. mortgage, electricity, phone,...you name it but at least for me it's well worth it. I can easily release some budget from clubbin' & drinkin' to be able to buy more music if it gets that far. Sometimes it has but i'm not regretting the choices i've made.
I know illegal downloading isn't truly quite as bad for record sales what the press and big corporations claim it to be. It might seem to affect more to pop culture because the spreading is also much much wider, millions even, while with EDM it's usually in hundreds or maybe some thousands... It all depends on the situation at hand. The smaller label, the bigger possibility for it to go down if not enough sales and vice versa... big labels don't go down as easily if they get sold for example a few hundred records less than planned. Big labels get more money so assumably the artists get paid more as well (note: assumably as i don't really know). EDM in usual isn't anywhere close to pop culture as a profitable business but we all must try to make a living and some of us are lucky enough to do it by doing what we love.
So why do some people deliberately want to prevent some people to get to pay the bills etc.? The money shouldn't be the issue for not paying for the music.. if you're a student you could party less and perhaps get a part-time job so it should help you out to get some money for the music. You would still have enough time to study. I know i did. And eat less junk food and learn to make your own freakin' dinner! Cheaper, better and keeps the hunger away longer.
If the issue is "try before you buy" or something like that, the digital world, internet has legal ways to get to hear the music before you buy. Lots of stores have long enough samples for you to decide if you like the track or not and then there are of course all sorts of DJ and livesets, Essential mixes, ASOT and whatever shows where you can hear the new tracks. If you are the type of person who simply can't be without the latest OMG 1337 0-day mp3s months before the release, look into the mirror and wonder "How old am i again? 4? 5?" You are just like a little kid who can't be without the new toy, for any cost you must have it and why? Just so you would feel yourself better than the kid next door who is poor and doesn't have all the cool toys.
For various reasons on some releases it takes ages for the labels to get them released but personally i have no problem to wait because i don't really listen much to the hyped up radioshows so i don't get the irresistible urge to get the tunes played there... i can deal with it and get them after i've listened them in record store. If you can't, too bad for you. Of course i still somewhat understand the people who live in a country with no good edm community or simply far from everything.. no record stores in decent range.. but online stores have been around for years, if you can dl tracks, you can as easily go to an online store and order the records.
Illegal downloading is a bit like you would be cheating on your better half; might not do any harm now if he/she doesn't know but in the long run the truth will most likely reveal anyway and at least someone's life gets ruined in the process if not your own. Think about it.
I know there are loads of old skool freaks like me out there who truly support the artists by buying all the music they like so a 
for you! And then naturally for those who don't do that and just massdownload illegal stuff with no regrets, a big 
to you! Just wanted to say i'm trying to do my part of the support process.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by paranoik0 wait, is that 540 euros for just one release? that's way more money than what i thought, honestly |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by GrimReaper I think most of us have been ignorant downloaders at some point but the ones who actually have capabilities to think and do something else than sit on their thumbs and whistle, are also the ones who have decided to start supporting their fav producers in the best way they can, buy buying/paying for the music they get. I spend several hundred, even thousand(s) of euros a year to buy the music i like and haven't been downloading much of anything for years (i don't like the official digital downloads at all, i prefer to get hold of the actual records with coverart and such, whether it's CD or 12").. except for unsigned "amateur" tracks by friends and fellow tranceaddicts and some freebies here and there. Otherwise i have no problems whatsoever to live without downloading illegal mp3s several gigs a week. I admit i did that back in the day but in the end i got so sick of the "OMG i have a 0-day release OMG i'm 1337" attitude it presented i wanted to stop completely and head straight for the real things instead. Buying all the music you like isn't cheap and not even close for being easy after all the costs of everyday life.. mortgage, electricity, phone,...you name it but at least for me it's well worth it. I can easily release some budget from clubbin' & drinkin' to be able to buy more music if it gets that far. Sometimes it has but i'm not regretting the choices i've made. I know illegal downloading isn't truly quite as bad for record sales what the press and big corporations claim it to be. It might seem to affect more to pop culture because the spreading is also much much wider, millions even, while with EDM it's usually in hundreds or maybe some thousands... It all depends on the situation at hand. The smaller label, the bigger possibility for it to go down if not enough sales and vice versa... big labels don't go down as easily if they get sold for example a few hundred records less than planned. Big labels get more money so assumably the artists get paid more as well (note: assumably as i don't really know). EDM in usual isn't anywhere close to pop culture as a profitable business but we all must try to make a living and some of us are lucky enough to do it by doing what we love. So why do some people deliberately want to prevent some people to get to pay the bills etc.? The money shouldn't be the issue for not paying for the music.. if you're a student you could party less and perhaps get a part-time job so it should help you out to get some money for the music. You would still have enough time to study. I know i did. And eat less junk food and learn to make your own freakin' dinner! Cheaper, better and keeps the hunger away longer. If the issue is "try before you buy" or something like that, the digital world, internet has legal ways to get to hear the music before you buy. Lots of stores have long enough samples for you to decide if you like the track or not and then there are of course all sorts of DJ and livesets, Essential mixes, ASOT and whatever shows where you can hear the new tracks. If you are the type of person who simply can't be without the latest OMG 1337 0-day mp3s months before the release, look into the mirror and wonder "How old am i again? 4? 5?" You are just like a little kid who can't be without the new toy, for any cost you must have it and why? Just so you would feel yourself better than the kid next door who is poor and doesn't have all the cool toys. For various reasons on some releases it takes ages for the labels to get them released but personally i have no problem to wait because i don't really listen much to the hyped up radioshows so i don't get the irresistible urge to get the tunes played there... i can deal with it and get them after i've listened them in record store. If you can't, too bad for you. Of course i still somewhat understand the people who live in a country with no good edm community or simply far from everything.. no record stores in decent range.. but online stores have been around for years, if you can dl tracks, you can as easily go to an online store and order the records. Illegal downloading is a bit like you would be cheating on your better half; might not do any harm now if he/she doesn't know but in the long run the truth will most likely reveal anyway and at least someone's life gets ruined in the process if not your own. Think about it. I know there are loads of old skool freaks like me out there who truly support the artists by buying all the music they like so a for you! And then naturally for those who don't do that and just massdownload illegal stuff with no regrets, a big to you! Just wanted to say i'm trying to do my part of the support process. |
All of this will change though. We're catching up with the technology and its only a matter of time before someone steps in with a secure way of owning and selling music.
I really doubt that the artists make only 500 euro's per release.
Although I will admit that spinning live at clubs is where they make most of their money.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by DreamTitan All of this will change though. We're catching up with the technology and its only a matter of time before someone steps in with a secure way of owning and selling music. I really doubt that the artists make only 500 euro's per release. Although I will admit that spinning live at clubs is where they make most of their money. |
Re: Reasons not to pay for music
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Benno de Goeij He doesn't consider it to be stealing from an artist because he doesn't take something from him, the artist still has got some original on tape. Even if an artist doesn't want his music to be copied, he still thinks it's okay to get it. The word copyright itself doesn't have any meaning to him because he feels getting a copy is not worth paying for and should be free, because it's not the original. |
cutnpasted from a similar argument on DI:
The argument that downloading music hurts sales is a misnomer because record companies equate every download to mean a guaranteed sale. Just because people download music does not mean that they are willing to pay for that music if the means to download it did not exist. In many cases--most, I'd say--songs are downloaded on a whim, simply for the ease of which it is to obtain them, listened to maybe once or twice, then discarded. If people could not do that, then they would likely just have to suffer not being able to listen to the song at all. Removing the avenues of downloading does not immediately translate to them grabbing their coat and heading out to the store to get the cd.
At any rate: Downloading is not killing music. It is killing the music INDUSTRY, the bloated, slow moving sloth that it is, and that can only be construed as a good thing.
It is time for us to recognize the fact that the age of spending a quiet afternoon writing a song and banking on its success for the rest of your life is over. Album-oriented marketing is coming to an end, and music as a tangible product is quietly being snuffed out. For now on, if you are a musician, the way to make your money in music is to do what you do best: play it. That's something that people can not download; the live performance.
The art of making money by recording and selling your work is at its sunset now. 100 years ago, before the invention of recorded media, musicians made a living by performing their music. In the future, they will return to this pastime.
(and, consequently, in all music contracts the artists are usually the last ones to get paid, and they get screwed 3 ways from Sunday, having to take out of their royalties to finance promotional campaigns and music videos. Many platinum selling artists in the past--Toni Braxton, TLC, MC Hammer come to mind--actually became poorer after their label was through with them, their entire careers crushed by insurmountable debt that they owed their own record companies. There's a lot of money to be made in the corporate music industry; unfortunately, the artists rarely see much of it. Touring is the only way many of them actually make money)
Part of the problem with this is the fact that the industry has too many hands in the cookie jar as it is. It is now a dead and dying carcass clinging onto tangible media, when digital media is the future. So it's not the artists that people are fed up about, really. It's the INDUSTRY that cultivates these artists. Or, rather, chews them up and spits them out. I'd pay $12 for a CD if I knew for certain that at least $11 of it was going to the three forces that created it: the producer, the performer, and the songwriter (one person or group is sometimes all three, but not always). But as it is, that money does not go to the deserved parties. Instead it goes to label designers, marketers, business execs, plastic manufacturers, photographers, advertisers, distributors, agents, lawyers, managers, whole-salers and retailers, and all the micro-industries that depend on the mass production of music from conception to completion of a tangible disc in your hands.
Musicians are the only ones who do not fear file-sharing, because they can always play music to make a living. That is a tangible talent that people respect and will pay money for. Record execs, label owners, marketers and advertisers, designers, and all the people who depend on the "CD market" trade are the ones who despise file-sharing the most, because it is cutting into their business, the business of music commodification and sales. You remove that, and they really don't have any means to make a living in the industry anymore.
It is for this reason that the only people who complain about music piracy are the well-established artists, pressured by their labels and their labels' lawyers to do so. Underground and independent artists never think that way, and 90% of the time are absolutely livid about the spread of their music on the internet. They see the online revolution as a levelling of the playing field. For 50 years the music industry controlled the media bottleneck to what you were allowed to hear, and furthermore, what you were allowed to like. By controlling radio and tv, they were in full control of whatever their customers were exposed to. Not anymore with the internet. It is breaking down barriers and fragmenting demographic markets so rapidly it's no wonder music execs are having a heart attack over this. They're losing control. They're losing power.
And that's really what it's all about.
one BIG MUTHAFUCING PLUS ONE. Don't think I have ever seen a bigger +1 than that!
close this thread. discussion is over!
what have i been saying all along?
Ishkur knows all.
doesn't excuse blatant copyright infringement though.
whilst we're on the topic, if you haven't already, check out The Politics of Digital Copyright debate at Cornell University
http://headlesschicken.ca/eng204/media/
I download almost 20 gigabytes of shit, mostly music. Every month.
How much of it do I listen to?
Almost none of it.
Does my record collection continually grow?
Yes.
I download for these reasons.
A. Some new pop artist releases a CD, and I need it for say a friend or a sibling, and I HATE said pop artist so I get great satisfaction out of downloading their entire cd (instead of just the one good song). So. Spite basically?
B. Archival purposes (currently pushing 13,000 mp3s since I started downloading when I was 14 or so). When I buy a 12" I usually download a nice 192-320kbps release group version of that record just to have it.
C. Too fucking poor (or would rather spend money on say improving my own skills). Enough said, I can�t buy all the music I want I simply can�t afford it; as much as I love it.
In the end. I just don't feel bad.
I go to shows, and that's what counts. Live performance is all that matters IMO.
Music can be recorded and perfected in a studio anywhere much like monkeys can eventually write Shakespeare if given enough time.
Live performance is where an artist must truly shine in order for them to be worth a salt. (Granted a lot of the GREAT producers either don't perform live as much or haven't YET or are still too small, realize I am generalizing)
So yea. DURP! GARRRR (/me starts DC++) Another wasted 15 minutes when I could have been queuing up songs.
EDIT: I defer any complaints about fucked up logic or poor grammar to lack of sleep.
I don't want to get too involved in this debate but I definitely have one comment to add.
I have heard people say (both in this thread, others, and in real life) that they would far rather own the actual cd than have the exact same thing on the computer. They say or imply that there is an intrinsic value native to the media device itself (the cd, record, cassette, whatever) that the music itself doesn't have.
I just want to point out that this is NOT true - there is nothing wonderful and magical about the cd itself. You have been brainwashed by artificially high prices and scarcity into thinking that the little plastic thing has value that the information on it does not have. Its the same concept that went into the artificial inflation of diamond prices. "Just charge a lot and people will assume it has value."
The only benefit of purchasing the "actual cd" that I can think of is the slip notes, which can easily be packaged with a legit digital download - the biggest downfall of most online music downloading vendors is that they fail to include cover art and slip notes with the product.
I hope that wasn't too controvertial, and I know that my argument isn't 100% true in all cases. But it is definitely something to think about and keep in mind the next time you want to go out and buy the "actual cd" - are you doing it to support the artist, or have you too been led to believe the lie of the $20 hunk of plastic?
Nice opinions so far!
As for the performances: There are a lot of people that make recordings possible, but don't perform. Like producers and engineers.
As for myself I like to create recordings more than performing them. Just a matter of taste for me. Should I get punished for that? In EDM it's a bit harder to perform as well, not mentioning DJ'ing off course. And to get that opportunity, one has too make good records in the first place. And btw: people that create great music are not always good performers, and vice versa.
I saw some other question why studio updating is needed. The thing is: to keep the music evolving technical investments are needed. And they ain't cheap! As technical possiblilties grows, so are growing the software and hardware that allows new kinds of music to come around.
But I am not complaining here, I think artists that make good songs will be supported by album sales or whatever. I know most people want good songs and the real cd anyway. Just like myself!
But one side effect might be affecting the newcomers: as record companies want to play safe nowadays, they don't invest in new talent, and don't want to take the risks. And the risks of pressing records and not getting them sold are huge!
Anyways, if people decide they don't like my music that much for buying it, that would be a message for me to quite if it would come so far. But I am not giving up yet 
I openly admit to downloading MP3's, but i also opening admit to having 2 huge CD racks on my wall full of CD's (singles & albums) from everyone from Sasha, Fleming, Corsten & U2. If i like the music enough i'll prob keep the MP3, but i'll also go out and buy the music. I think MP3 is great for that, but obviously its open to abuse.
MP3's are great for live sets tho, which you cant buy. 
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Ishkur cutnpasted from a similar argument on DI: And that's really what it's all about. |
i think the main problem is that people cant find legal music downloads as easily as illegal ones. u can find almost anything on p2p, but anything thats a few years old is very hard to find as a legal digi download. i dont really have a problem with people downloading my music as long as a) they dont use it in their sets.. because that is filthly and cheap, and they cant expect to make money out of music they havnt even paid for ..
and
b) they wait till its released. sharing leaked mp3s which arent even released yet is very damaging, both to an artists reputation and to the record sales.. there is no doubt about that.
A big +1 for ish's post.
You need to realize that alot of people don't have the money to buy a tangible copy of every song they own. If I'd have paid for all my music I probably wouldn't even have a home right now. So yes, buying CDs will bring the artist a little 50 cents of profit, but if you can't affort to pay 20 bucks a CD, you're doing the artist a huge favor by downloading the tracks rather than not listening to them at all - ESPECIALLY in less known genres like EDM. I've been hanging around people who didn't even know EDM existed, and through me, they were exposed to it. How many of these people ended up buying reccords because of it? And of those that didn't, how many ended up influencing others to buy reccords? I myself might not even know what EDM is if someone who pirated music hadn't sent me illegal copies of AVB tracks and sets. Apply that on a bigger scale, and you could say electronic music probably wouldn't even exist if it weren't for piracy.
I don't have the money for a big BMW X5, but i am not stealing to get one.
Difference is, you need physical materials to build one of those. That argument holds no water.
I don't know why artists with a fan base don't put a paypal link on their artist page for generous donations. I know 1 or 2 artists that I would certainly give random cash to if I could. I would also feel better knowing it had not gone to any middleman.
What's the difference? It costs me money and effort and hardware to make my product just like BMW does. And as long as i state: I dont want you to get it unless i get a really small fee (whats 1 euro!), and you get it for free, you stole me one euro. Wheather it has some good side effects as well, i still think it is stealing if you really enjoy that music.
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