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-- Ratio of Liberals to Conservatives
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Originally posted by donnybrasco Actually, in the U.S., being pro-gun is considered expressly a CONSERVATIVE trait.

oh wait, where's the drum roll?

*BADAM'CHE!*

Ah, there we go.

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Originally posted by squirrelly You're asking about the entire board? I doubt any one of us could have that answer. Though if you're asking about the PDD, that's a different story. But who are you? Why do you care? WHO SENT YOU HERE?! No really, a lot of new people sprouting up.

I am sent here by myself, in need of some renewed liberal-bashing. My other avenues have either dried up or left me bored...

I didn't expect a real stat...was more curious how the board views itself........because honestly, so far, I think this is one HELLUVA Liberal board! LOL.

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Originally posted by Aquarian oh wait, where's the drum roll? *BADAM'CHE!* Ah, there we go.

????

It was a subtle joke. No one got it. Let's move on folks!

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco I am sent here by myself, in need of some renewed liberal-bashing. My other avenues have either dried up or left me bored... I didn't expect a real stat...was more curious how the board views itself........because honestly, so far, I think this is one HELLUVA Liberal board! LOL. ????

I was teasing

donnybrasco, id be interested in why you feel the need to go liberal bashing when liberalism & libertarianism are branches from the same tree, and conservatism is a bunch of cr@ppy, uninteresting bollocks??

No worries Squirelly and Aquarian. It's the subtle differences in culture. I'm an admittedly typical OBNOXIOUS American...but I'm pretty much harmless I think...my facetiousness is done purposely pkcRAISTLIN, for humor's sake. Always remember this, and you'll never have to worry about half of what I say, lol.

And to answer that question; You're correct about the roots of "Libertarianism" in this country, and on it's surface, it would stand to reason that "Liberals' (of the garden-variety 1960's movement kind) would be all about less government, no taxes, fewer laws, etc...but the modern-day Liberal of the 1990's and beyond has actually twisted the meaning and the actions. Today's American Liberals did in fact (for example) in the last election vote AGAINST lowering taxes by Bush and support the raising of taxes via their candidate!! I must say, you know your brain-washing is complete when you're actually ASKING your Government to RAISE your taxes! Hardly a "Liberal" sentiment.

Not to mention they are instrumental in creating the never ending litigation in this country, they constantly support more and more red-tape feel good laws, the un-fair and un-equal hiring of minorities who aren't as qualified as others in to key jobs (same goes for college admissions), etc., etc...the list goes on and on of their isolated, un-realistic, myopic view of the world.

But more than anything, they have become more of a "Socialist" party in all reality. But they still call themselves Liberal...and much the way you can't trample on a black man's rights in this country by telling him he's "black", when he in fact calls himself "African-American", you just have to grin and bear whatever term "Liberals" want to call themselves, no matter how off-base it is.

^^ haha. i love it how so many americans talk about "american" *insert ideology here* when talking about theories and implementations (in this case) dating back roughly 400 years, & in europe

i also love it how libertarians dont seem to be able to grasp the concept that in today's day and age, to protect the intrinsic rights at the core of libertarian thought, you need laws & govt

^^^And that is actually where I split off from my party...some taxes and national defense are needed.

I think the main thing is not to be a party-pet, but rather think for yourself on all issues, without concession to your closest party when they don't see eye to eye with you.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ^^ haha. i love it how so many americans talk about "american" *insert ideology here* when talking about theories and implementations (in this case) dating back roughly 400 years, & in europe i also love it how libertarians dont seem to be able to grasp the concept that in today's day and age, to protect the intrinsic rights at the core of libertarian thought, you need laws & govt

I don't quite see how you're addressing his arguments. As an "American" and a "Libertarian" myself, I don't see how laws and government contradict libertarian belief. What you seem to categorize as libertarian belief seems more closely aligned with anarchism.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco And to answer that question; You're correct about the roots of "Libertarianism" in this country, and on it's surface, it would stand to reason that "Liberals' (of the garden-variety 1960's movement kind) would be all about less government, no taxes, fewer laws, etc...but the modern-day Liberal of the 1990's and beyond has actually twisted the meaning and the actions. [...Long rant on "American Liberals".]

Where you are wrong is in the act of posting a thread on a truely international forum, and then using "liberal" in the sense it is only used in modern day America to bash true liberals all over the place. That's offensive behaviour.
The reason why "liberal" has a socialist flair in the US, is because of your age old love of the dualism, which has forced anyone into either the republican camp or the democratic camp. As religious lunatics and selfish (which, I hasten to add, does *not* equiate liberal) people have taken full control of the GOP, true liberals (those valuing personal freedom over dogma from tradition or religion) have had no choice but to support the democrats, where the socialists also belongs. As the average American seemingly loves to look at things in black and white, this must mean that liberals is socialists, right. So we might as well go ahead and distort the meaning of "liberal" totally.
Of course, the perversion of the word liberal has picked up speed with the illiterate monkey in the white house, who makes no bones about his disgust of liberals. Too bad that more intelligent people like you have bought into it. The average level of enlightement of the US population must be dropping these years.

^^ Quite right, tranceaholic.

It irritates me beyond belief, when an American on this forum assumes that America is the whole world, and that American politics is the same as other countries' politics.

Some people here are so naive. But who can blame them, they live in a huge insular country that is largely closed off from contact.

For example, in the Chill Out Room, there was a topic recently about the age of consent, and in response to someone's comments, a girl from Texas wrote "Which state do you live in? Here in Texas it's ."

Now, what struck me as enfuriating about that, was that she assumed the poster was from the USA. If she's from the USA, everybody is from the USA, right? WAKE UP GIRL, YOU'RE ON AN INTERNATIONAL FORUM. What an arrogant, ignorant, idiotic attitude to have.

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd ^^ Quite right, tranceaholic. It irritates me beyond belief, when an American on this forum assumes that America is the whole world, and that American politics is the same as other countries' politics. Some people here are so naive. But who can blame them, they live in a huge insular country that is largely closed off from contact. For example, in the Chill Out Room, there was a topic recently about the age of consent, and in response to someone's comments, a girl from Texas wrote "Which state do you live in? Here in Texas it's ." Now, what struck me as enfuriating about that, was that she assumed the poster was from the USA. If she's from the USA, everybody is from the USA, right? WAKE UP GIRL, YOU'RE ON AN INTERNATIONAL FORUM. What an arrogant, ignorant, idiotic attitude to have.

[/RANT]

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic true liberals (those valuing personal freedom over dogma from tradition or religion) have had no choice but to support the democrats...

Not true, you always have a choice...they could have gone Liberatarian, as I did.......but "liberals" in this country can't stand the right to bear arms, so that would affect their willingness to join such a party.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Of course, the perversion of the word liberal has picked up speed with the illiterate monkey in the white house, who makes no bones about his disgust of liberals. Too bad that more intelligent people like you have bought into it. The average level of enlightement of the US population must be dropping these years.

But you didn't read my post then; Even Democrats PROUDLY call themsleves "Liberals"......the literal meaning of the word can't be used anymore in this application...it has become more of a euphemism, if anything.

And HardTranceProd, I just recently began posting here (very recently in fact) even though I signed up a long time ago...I did not realize how much of a truly international board this was. It's refreshing actually. But I will try to be more sensitive to your hatred of Americans and kiss your butt from time to time, ok?

Now go play in traffic.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco And HardTranceProd, I just recently began posting here (very recently in fact) even though I signed up a long time ago...I did not realize how much of a truly international board this was. It's refreshing actually. But I will try to be more sensitive to your hatred of Americans and kiss your butt from time to time, ok? Now go play in traffic.

Um, dude, I'm American myself.

It just saddens me when my fellow Americans' first instinct is to assume that everyone is like them, everyone's values are just like theirs, and everyone is a "liberal" or "conservative" in the American sense, or that everyone even uses these terms the American way. [or uses them at all]

In effect, this is what little children do, because they can't grasp the idea that others may be different from them. And many people in this country, unfortunately, are like little children.

For example, why did you first assume this was an American forum? I personally would never have made that assumption about any forum, and I started posting here recently just like you.

This is very revealing in terms of American culture. Maybe someone wants to make a separate thread about that.

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd Um, dude, I'm American myself.

Really? I would have NEVER guessed ..........any relation to Michael Moore by chance then?

Listen up Trance Addicts!

Don't confuse anti-American American's (like Michael Moore and such) and their erroneous and intentionally twisted "facts" about "stupid" Americans with, well, what "Americans" are really all about. There is a media element in this country that uses it's right of free expression to the shameful point of trying to paint all Americans as a self-centered, insensitive, and just plain "dumb" people.

EOM.

donnybrasco, do us all a favour and please define "Americanism", and then we might understand what "anti-Americanism" is.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Really? I would have NEVER guessed ..........any relation to Michael Moore by chance then? Listen up Trance Addicts! Don't confuse anti-American American's (like Michael Moore and such) and their erroneous and intentionally twisted "facts" about "stupid" Americans with, well, what "Americans" are really all about. There is a media element in this country that uses it's right of free expression to the shameful point of trying to paint all Americans as a self-centered, insensitive, and just plain "dumb" people. EOM.

So anyone critizising the american government is then anti american? Wow that makes a lot of sense!

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Originally posted by St_Andrew So anyone critizising the american government is then anti american? Wow that makes a lot of sense!

You just pointed out a totalitarian concept here St_Andrew, if you criticize the policies of a Goverment/a Goverment, you therefore hate the people and the culture.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Not true, you always have a choice...they could have gone Liberatarian, as I did.......but "liberals" in this country can't stand the right to bear arms, so that would affect their willingness to join such a party.

Well, because of your all-or-nothing, rigid, and outdated form of democracy the people voting libertarian really have no influence on the government of the US. If you want to have a say you are basically confined to voting republican or democrat. And given those two choices the choice is pretty obvious.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco But you didn't read my post then; Even Democrats PROUDLY call themsleves "Liberals"......the literal meaning of the word can't be used anymore in this application...it has become more of a euphemism, if anything.

But you didn't read my post then: The Democratic party proudly calls themselves liberals because they represent a lot of the liberals! When they say that the state shouldn't interfere in matters such as abortion and gay marriage, or that the choice of what constitutes a solid theory of origin of mankind should be left to scientists, then they are advocating liberal views.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco any relation to Michael Moore by chance then? There is a media element in this country that uses it's right of free expression to the shameful point of trying to paint all Americans as a self-centered, insensitive, and just plain "dumb" people.

Not at all. The reason why Michael Moore attracted so much buzz and attention in the first place, is because his movie was such a stark contrast to what the American media was saying and showing. Most people could never have imagined certain facts because they were never shown the footage, due to the wall-to-wall insipid "coverage" provided by dolts like Wolf Blitzer et al.

Hence, your argument is invalid: most of the media in this country rarely questions or provokes. Hell, it took foreign journalists (think Britain and Ireland) to turn up the heat and ask Bush and Rumsfeld real hard questions during last year's press conferences.

There's certainly enough patriotism and self-congratulation in this country right now, so a little criticism never hurts.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z donnybrasco, do us all a favour and please define "Americanism", and then we might understand what "anti-Americanism" is.

Did I use that term exactly somewhere?

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Originally posted by St_Andrew So anyone critizising the american government is then anti american? Wow that makes a lot of sense!

Actually, HardTranceProd was critisizing Americans as a people...so you're right, Moore isn't really a good example to make a comparison too HTP, as Moore likes to critisize organizations more than people. However, Moore does, by virtue of his political slant, like to purposefully paint anyone who is a part of said organizations as being the completely stupid typical American that the rest of the world likes to view us as, imho...he's throwing fuel on the fire for positions at the box office...weak.

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd There's certainly enough patriotism and self-congratulation in this country right now, so a little criticism never hurts.

Really? I wish I could recall that poll of the media done just about a year ago, where it was found that about 75% consider themselves to have a "Liberal" POV...if you can't see that reflected in the coverage we have in our media, than I can only guess you'll be happy only if the media gets to 100% "Liberal" in it's POV.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Did I use that term exactly somewhere?

Well, if you're going to use terms like anti-American, you kind of have to explain what "Americaism" is, then we derive the meaning of "Anti-Americanism", which would explain terms like "Anti-American."

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Actually, HardTranceProd was critisizing Americans as a people...so you're right, Moore isn't really a good example to make a comparison too HTP, as Moore likes to critisize organizations more than people. However, Moore does, by virtue of his political slant, like to purposefully paint anyone who is a part of said organizations as being the completely stupid typical American that the rest of the world likes to view us as, imho...he's throwing fuel on the fire for positions at the box office...weak.

Wait, does this sound familiar? Oh yeah thats right, thats pretty much the same tactics as bush is useing! but the other way around! its the traditional with us or without us sense that seem to be very popular in the US. Im not a big fan of moore, but i must say that he is a good counterpart to a very conservative media / lobby groups in the US. yes, your media isnt very leftich, its very much the opposite, and almost everyone that lives outside of the US would agree to that.

The only way in which your media make the rest of the world think you are stupid, is that its very pro american and in our sense, conservative. So what you think would be good for us to see, is in fact haveing the opposite effect on most europeans and alike. So guys like moore is a "hero" outside us because he stands up against something that is very biased in one way, the traditional american way.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Moore does, by virtue of his political slant, like to purposefully paint anyone who is a part of said organizations as being the completely stupid typical American that the rest of the world likes to view us as, imho...

What do you know of how the rest of the world likes to see you? And we're not talking the Bush administration but the American people.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco Really? I wish I could recall that poll of the media done just about a year ago, where it was found that about 75% consider themselves to have a "Liberal" POV...if you can't see that reflected in the coverage we have in our media, than I can only guess you'll be happy only if the media gets to 100% "Liberal" in it's POV.

How did those percentages spread out by size of their consumer bases? I would think that someone like Fox News should count a bit more than the grassroot pamphlets being handed out in Greenwich Village, if this question is to be settled in a reasonable way.

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Originally posted by trancaholic What do you know of how the rest of the world likes to see you? And we're not talking the Bush administration but the American people.

Just a few short years ago, when the choice was either being part of a free country or soviet block country, the American way of life was by far the most popular dream for a lot of people around the world. Were we really doing anything different then as opposed to now in terms of our foreign policies? I have had friends from different parts of the world tell me that this "Anti-Americansim" has as much to do with pure jealousy of hating the guy on top as it has to do with anything else...and honestly, that makes a lot of sense to me. There is no more Soviet Union to balance out the "Top", so naturally, we're getting all the heat now.

It's just human nature to hate your neighbor with the better lawn and the nicer car...and to judge them as a result.

But let's face it; What makes the rest of the world think that they would behave any differently given the same economy and the same military powers that the U.S. has? Have any of the world powers throughout history ever acted any better or worse? And if not, isn't that more a statement about human nature then it is about "Americans"?

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