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-- Is the war in Iraq worth your life if you joined the military?
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Originally posted by BadBadNeil Soldiers can not pick and choose which battle they will be a part of. They may have an opinion if the war is just or not but really at the end of the day it isn't them who decide where to go, it is the commanders of this country. If they can not accept that then they have no part of joining the military for the "free money".

Exactly.
If you're getting paid to do a job, then you better damn well do it...

I sure as hell don't tell my boss that, "Well, it's just against my morals to do what you're asking"....
Like....WTF???

Who joins the military and then thinks in mid-stride, "I don't like this, I might get hurt. I think I'll protest and whine and cry".
Heeelllloooo....you're in the frickin' military!!! (beside maybe the gays.....j/k!!! j/k!!! )

...well....maybe the gays will complain about their body ordor or broken nails or somethin'....

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Originally posted by smokeape I voted yes, though retired from military I am still working for the Army. You agree you pay the ultimate sacrifice by joining up in the military to defend our nation.

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu Sorry, but this is an idiotic and very dangerous attitude.

I don't know if there is a psychological test for new recruits. And if there is one it would be to see how a n00b conforms to the rules.

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It's nonsense masquerading mostly as ill-informed patriotism, and similar mindlessness is getting a lot of destitute, under-educated southern US males uselessly killed because they don't know any better.

The dumber the better. You don't need a Ph.D. to hold a machine gun and kill a baby.

*dons anti-flame suit and loads fire extinguisher*

Anyone that argues that they never killed a baby while on patrol is an outright liar. If a child runs in front of your APV and you are afraid for an ambush, the only thing you can do is to either run the kid over or shoot him dead. Am I wrong? No one should say because they had to. No one ordered those of you off to war. Those of you just got pimped into signing at the dotted line.

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The time of automaton soldiers being used as political tools by self-interested bureaucrats is passing quickly, as a direct result of the very bad experiences of said soldiers and their families.

Movies like Universal Soldier and Soldier are there for kids to watch so that way they can be just like their movie stars. When they get pimped by the recruiter they can live out their dreams. It goes hand in hand.

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Suddenly war and patriotism isn't so grand when it's your children that are being blown up and/or approaching the age of 18, hmm?

People are for some strange reason trying to convince me and others what they are doing is just. Go figure. Killing humans because of we are in a war.

One of the root words of war is confusion.

In war, truth is the first casualty
Aeschylus

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NobelEu goes blah blah. Blah Navy Cook blah.

Good choice. Better than finding mines.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Exactly. If you're getting paid to do a job, then you better damn well do it... I sure as hell don't tell my boss that, "Well, it's just against my morals to do what you're asking".... Like....WTF???

You're perfect for the job. When can we sign you up?

OFFICIAL ENLISTMENT FORM FOR THE US ARMED FORCES aka DD FORM 4/1 with instructions

my job is sitting around the office the whole day, do the same stuff over and over. I need some excitement in life, adrenaline, so the life wouldnt be boring. I actually like the fact that you have to literary fight for your life to survive, so maybe I would go to iraq and fight there

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 Anyone that argues that they never killed a baby while on patrol is an outright liar.

Sorry do I have this right? Are you saying that every soldier has killed a baby in Iraq and elsewhere?

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Movies like Universal Soldier and Soldier are there for kids to watch so that way they can be just like their movie stars. When they get pimped by the recruiter they can live out their dreams. It goes hand in hand.

The Army recruiting office made those films?!

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People are for some strange reason trying to convince me and others what they are doing is just. Go figure. Killing humans because of we are in a war.

What the hell do you know about the motives for people joining the military?! Where are your sources? FYI the military offers an excellent career and maybe in America you get redneck drop outs joining but in most professional armies these people wouldn't even get selected. How do you know people dont wanna join the army to help people?

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You're perfect for the job. When can we sign you up?

When I'm fit enuf

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil Soldiers can not pick and choose which battle they will be a part of.

--

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r If you're getting paid to do a job, then you better damn well do it... I sure as hell don't tell my boss that, "Well, it's just against my morals to do what you're asking".... Like....WTF??? Who joins the military and then thinks in mid-stride, "I don't like this, I might get hurt. I think I'll protest and whine and cry". Heeelllloooo....you're in the frickin' military!!! (beside maybe the gays.....j/k!!! j/k!!! )

In fact, most do.

Either of you heard much at all about the impact of the first and second Gulf invasions on the troops?

It caused the Pentagon to seriously reconsider allowing, e.g., women in combat arms roles. Several major offensives were stalled and had to be replanned in the first invasion because the night before, some crazy figure like 20% of the infantry requested transfers to the rear (i.e., they put in official requests to be removed from the battle order so they wouldn't have to go into combat). More than a few were females, whose justification was that they were pregnant.

When was the last time either of you had your life in your hands, when in the next hour you could be maimed, severely wounded and suffering terribly, or be killed outright? So yea, ugh, every single one of them considers: "I don't like this, I might get hurt. I think I'll protest and whine and cry". Don't be a couple of fools by thinking it's any other way.

Neither am I arguing they should have a choice, and that's not the point of the thread. But, if I might brush away your parroted, party-line veneers, it isn't so simple to produce cannon fodder anymore, hence:

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil They may have an opinion if the war is just or not but really at the end of the day it isn't them who decide where to go, it is the commanders of this country. If they can not accept that then they have no part of joining the military for the "free money".

Problem: no one signs up "to die" (which is the idiotic topic of this thread and poll). That's all I said. See my other post where I listed all the practical reasons for people to show up.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 I don't know if there is a psychological test for new recruits.

Of course there is.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 The dumber the better. You don't need a Ph.D. to hold a machine gun and kill a baby.

True enough. This is the philosophy of the US Army, in particular the Marine Corps.

I argued that this is not the way to produce quality soldiers. It is however, we agree, the way to train human shields.

And you can see the results in Iraq now...

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 Anyone that argues that they never killed a baby while on patrol is an outright liar.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 No one should say because they had to. No one ordered those of you off to war. Those of you just got pimped into signing at the dotted line. -- ...are there for kids to watch so that way they can be just like their movie stars. When they get pimped by the recruiter they can live out their dreams. It goes hand in hand.

Quite a few, in fact most, "got ordered off to war." What planet are you posting from?

Rhetorical question: so willfully deceiving the uneducated, lower-classes into military service on the promise of a better life, while indoctrinating them to be cannon fodder is fine with you?

You should know that you in particular are the target demographic for such treatment (i.e., those perceived as being undereducated second-class citizens with only passable English).

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 People are for some strange reason trying to convince me and others what they are doing is just. Go figure. Killing humans because of we are in a war. One of the root words of war is confusion. In war, truth is the first casualty Aeschylus

I never did anything of the sort. I'm just having you reconsider your own media-induced drawl.

No idea what you're trying to say; not sure if you've got a point?

-N

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Originally posted by George Smiley Sorry do I have this right? Are you saying that every soldier has killed a baby in Iraq and elsewhere?

I've read that women and children account for over 50% of casualties. Whether or not they are combatant kills I cannot say before you jump on the soapbox.

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The Army recruiting office made those films?!

Just as much as Hollywood never knew anything when a TV show called "Lone Gunmen" aired whose pilot episode involved a jetliner crashing into the WTC back in March 2001.

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What the hell do you know about the motives for people joining the military?! Where are your sources? FYI the military offers an excellent career and maybe in America you get redneck drop outs joining but in most professional armies these people wouldn't even get selected. How do you know people dont wanna join the army to help people?

Unknown by the few "rednecks" that join:

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 Injured Iraq Vets Come Home to Poverty (Injured Soldiers Returning from Iraq Struggle for Medical Benefits, Financial Survival) Congress Declares War Against Disabled Veterans from Disabled American Veterans Online Veterans angry over VA health care plans / Front Page -The Olympian Seven Thousand Wounded US Soldiers Treated at One Hospital in Germany Homeless heroes abound as thousands of veterans sleep on streets DU Syndrome Stricken Vets Denied Care U.S. deserter numbers reach 5,500 Army Teams Face Surgeon Shortage Judge Orders Soldier to Report to Iraq US soldiers would kill civilians, says Marine U.S. marine who went missing in Iraq is charged with desertion Bush, Rumsfeld try to soothe angry US troops US GIs hit Rumsfeld with hard questions HOMELESS VETS WAIT YEARS FOR AID From hero to homeless DU Death Toll Tops 11,000 Iraq Affecting Mental Health of Troops Stressed US troops in Iraq 'turning to drugs'

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When I'm fit enuf

Pick a reason:

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 6 Reasons of NOT being able to join the military: 1) physically challenged 2) visually challenged 3) mentally challenged 4) drug addict 5) homosexual 6) sexual pervert If neither of these apply then click for OFFICIAL ENLISTMENT FORM FOR THE US ARMED FORCES aka DD FORM 4/1 with instructions

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu Quite a few, in fact most, "got ordered off to war." What planet are you posting from?

There was a draft?

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Rhetorical question: so willfully deceiving the uneducated, lower-classes into military service on the promise of a better life, while indoctrinating them to be cannon fodder is fine with you?

NO.

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You should know that you in particular are the target demographic for such treatment (i.e., those perceived as being undereducated second-class citizens with only passable English).

Your eloquence speaks volumes.

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I never did anything of the sort. I'm just having you reconsider your own media-induced drawl. No idea what you're trying to say; not sure if you've got a point? -N

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People in general are for some strange reason trying to convince me and others what they are doing is just. Go figure. Killing humans because of we are in a war. One of the root words of war is confusion. In war, truth is the first casualty Aeschylus

Fixed it a bit. I was not refering to you personally, just people in general.

More than 3,000 members of the Louisiana National Guard�s 256th Brigade serving in Iraq can only watch from Baghdad as Hurricane Katrina bears down on their families and homes in New Orleans and the other south Louisiana communities from which they hail. The deployed soldiers and their equipment, which includes high water vehicles, Humvees and generators, will be sorely missed as Louisiana attempts to prepare for and recover from the historic Category Five storm.
The soldiers of the 256th are due home in October, assuming their tour isn�t extended to beef up US troop levels in Iraq for the October constitutional referendum and December general elections. Mississippi and Alabama, the other states under threat from Katrina�s second assault on the Gulf Coast, also have Guard contingents in Iraq, with 3,500 troops of Mississippi�s 155th Brigade Combat Team serving near Karbala and Najaf, while 140 Alabama Guard troops left last Sunday for training preparatory to joining some 2,000 Alabama troops already deployed overseas.
Louisiana National Guard troops watch Katrina from Iraq

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Originally posted by George Smiley Problem: no one signs up "to die" (which is the idiotic topic of this thread and poll). That's all I said. See my other post where I listed all the practical reasons for people to show up. -N

Of course you don't sign up to die but you sign up knowing that death is a possibility, especially during war. If a person can't comprehend that people die during war and that includes themselves, then that person has no place joining the army.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 There was a draft?

There was:

1. Forced activation of primary reserves as primary combatants;
2. Forced activation of the national guard as primary combatants;
3. Forced re-enlistment for all branches including those who:
a. were short-timers (term of army commitment nearing end);
b. people who were already passed-term and were due to be discharged from the army;
c. people who had already been on tour to Iraq and returned home.

There's also a propaganda network (er, "recruitment") for 'a career in the army' that service people are forced to attend in the event they somehow can't be immediately shanghaiied in one of the above ways.

Ever heard of selective service? You might very soon.

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil Of course you don't sign up to die but you sign up knowing that death is a possibility, especially during war. If a person can't comprehend that people die during war and that includes themselves, then that person has no place joining the army.

You're still spouting one-liners, spare us.

See above, not all joined willingly. And regardless, did you 'sign up' to work in a supermarket, a car wash, or even a factory "knowing that death is a possibility?" It's probably in the contract.

Sure, theoretically, but when you took the job did you imagine that such a thing could happen to you?

What about those that signed up for non-combatant roles, that got forcibily reassigned to the front lines? Fair then to say that such people didn't sign up with the intention of risking their lives?

-N

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu There was: 1. Forced activation of primary reserves as primary combatants; 2. Forced activation of the national guard as primary combatants; 3. Forced re-enlistment for all branches including those who: a. were short-timers (term of army commitment nearing end); b. people who were already passed-term and were due to be discharged from the army; c. people who had already been on tour to Iraq and returned home. There's also a propaganda network (er, "recruitment") for 'a career in the army' that service people are forced to attend in the event they somehow can't be immediately shanghaiied in one of the above ways. Ever heard of selective service? You might very soon. You're still spouting one-liners, spare us. See above, not all joined willingly. And regardless, did you 'sign up' to work in a supermarket, a car wash, or even a factory "knowing that death is a possibility?" It's probably in the contract. Sure, theoretically, but when you took the job did you imagine that such a thing could happen to you? What about those that signed up for non-combatant roles, that got forcibily reassigned to the front lines? Fair then to say that such people didn't sign up with the intention of risking their lives? -N

My one line means more than the paragraphs of crap that you post every day so spare me your arrogance. If this was a discussion where validity was based on the amount of words you type you'd win hands down.

Please don't compare working in a supermarket or car wash to working in the military, it has no correlation what-so-ever. This is the army, you carry big guns with the intention to protect the country, you are trained in combat, who else do you expect the government to use? These aren't bag boys asked to stay an extra shift because a co-worker is sick.

Here is the enlistment PDF contract stating that reserves may be called to duty in times of war and that those who are out of duty their terms may be extended. If you don't understand the contract for Christ's sake don't sign it.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil My one line means more than the paragraphs of crap that you post every day so spare me your arrogance. If this was a discussion where validity was based on the amount of words you type you'd win hands down.

That's nice, why don't you prove it by responding to any of the array of points I raised above, instead of snipping and ignoring them, then casting insults?

Anything insightful or interesting to say? (wouldn't it be nice if that was a criteria for posting?) Show me you're capable of something that "means more" than the inane claptrap of the above.

Always carries the ability to astonish me when people have nothing to say once relieved of the party line.

-N

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Originally posted by TheNobleEu That's nice, why don't you prove it by responding to any of the array of points I raised above, instead of snipping and ignoring them, then casting insults? Anything insightful or interesting to say? (wouldn't it be nice if that was a criteria for posting?) Show me you're capable of something that "means more" than the inane claptrap of the above. Always carries the ability to astonish me when people have nothing to say once relieved of the party line. -N

Don't talk about insults if you start off your post with an insult. Don't be such a hypocrite. You started this, I'm finishing it.

Read the LAST LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IS YOUR INSIGHTFUL PROOF, not that it matters because I'm expecting some half assed snappy comment in return.

In case you decide to intentionally skip over that one again here it is again. It answers all your long winded crap.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf

and in case you miss that one
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf

I personally think this is an unjust war so I voted no. I am not going to pretend to be super smart and present all sorts of research backing up my feelings, or get into this big heated argument just to defend my POV. I realize that I am not in touch with the events happening in the middle east and don't know everything about what is happening and why things are happening the way they are.

I just feel that the war was rushed into without considering other possible ways to prevent terrorism, I think there were other ways to stop it from happening besides invading Iraq and I never saw any serious consideration for other options. I just think that war is supposed to be the last resort, something to be avoided until everybody agrees that it is necessary. I dont feel like this war was a last resort, it seemed to be a little hasty, maybe people who live in New York disagree, which I can understand. I think maybe we should have let congress be the people who declared the war for a change, you know, the way the constitution describes the process of declaring a war.

I also find wars to be pretty discusting, maybe I have read too many books that just go on and on about how horiffic it is. Some of those chilling lines like that Saline book that said "there is no honor in dying for one's country"(or something similar). I just think that alot of the cause for terrorism is based on alot of heinous things that my country has done, and I don't beleive there was enough serious consideration for the possibilty that changing some of our methods might help to prevent attacks better than an invasion would.

Maybe I would think differently if I knoew more about what was really going on, maybe I would do the same thing if I were in the place of the leaders and had access to the info that they have, but from where I am standing this is the way I see it.

The war in Iraq was nothing to do with the war on terror. The US government originally did say to the UN that there were links between al-Qaida and Saddam but they later admitted there were none. Either way, 9/11 was not the reason America wanted to invade Iraq

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil My one line means more than the paragraphs of crap that you post every day so spare me your arrogance. If this was a discussion where validity was based on the amount of words you type you'd win hands down. Please don't compare working in a supermarket or car wash to working in the military, it has no correlation what-so-ever. This is the army, you carry big guns with the intention to protect the country, you are trained in combat, who else do you expect the government to use? These aren't bag boys asked to stay an extra shift because a co-worker is sick. Here is the enlistment PDF contract stating that reserves may be called to duty in times of war and that those who are out of duty their terms may be extended. If you don't understand the contract for Christ's sake don't sign it. http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf

Whats this bullshit "protecting your country" crap. What are you protecting the USA from???? WMD's????

This veiled threat has and always will be indoctrinated by this ridiculous administration.

Why are the soldiers in Iraq. Please give a coherent and reasonable and REALISTIC answer. So far.. my answer is that they are occupying Iraq.. that is why. and we all know why... becuase the poor iraqi's need to be saved... ahhahahhahahah

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Whats this bullshit "protecting your country" crap. What are you protecting the USA from???? WMD's???? This veiled threat has and always will be indoctrinated by this ridiculous administration. Why are the soldiers in Iraq. Please give a coherent and reasonable and REALISTIC answer. So far.. my answer is that they are occupying Iraq.. that is why. and we all know why... becuase the poor iraqi's need to be saved... ahhahahhahahah

Well as far as the public (and that includes soldiers too) is concerned yes, the war was about WMDs as that is what the government (and intelligence) told us

So "protecting your country" is not crap

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well as far as the public (and that includes soldiers too) is concerned yes, the war was about WMDs as that is what the government (and intelligence) told us So "protecting your country" is not crap

What was america being protected against?? those weapons were going to somehow bomb the US?

Iran wasnt even afraid and Hussein was mortal enemies with the persians.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King What was america being protected against?? those weapons were going to somehow bomb the US?

Or bomb to military bases in Saudi Arabia...

Don't get me wrong, nobody knew before the war whether Saddam had WMDs and he was doing his best impersonation of someone that did have WMDs, but I didn't think that he would use them against the West or give them to terrorists (possible they could be used to threaten Israel?)

But as far as the public were concerned (and again we include soldiers here) the government told us, or led us to believe, that yes, those weapons would be used, through one means or another, against the West

I didn't believe they would, you didn't, but I can't really blame some people who did believe when that's what they were told by "official" sources and intelligence sources

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Originally posted by George Smiley Or bomb to military bases in Saudi Arabia... Don't get me wrong, nobody knew before the war whether Saddam had WMDs and he was doing his best impersonation of someone that did have WMDs, but I didn't think that he would use them against the West or give them to terrorists (possible they could be used to threaten Israel?) But as far as the public were concerned (and again we include soldiers here) the government told us, or led us to believe, that yes, those weapons would be used, through one means or another, against the West I didn't believe they would, you didn't, but I can't really blame some people who did believe when that's what they were told by "official" sources and intelligence sources

ok. i get what you mean now

quote:

Originally posted by TheNobleEu There was: 1. Forced activation of primary reserves as primary combatants; 2. Forced activation of the national guard as primary combatants; 3. Forced re-enlistment for all branches including those who: a. were short-timers (term of army commitment nearing end); b. people who were already passed-term and were due to be discharged from the army; c. people who had already been on tour to Iraq and returned home. There's also a propaganda network (er, "recruitment") for 'a career in the army' that service people are forced to attend in the event they somehow can't be immediately shanghaiied in one of the above ways. Ever heard of selective service? You might very soon.

No draft though.

Those people in the military are contractually obligated to live out their contractual obligations. So before you sign at the bottom line it is up to you to read the "fine print". When you sign a contract you do so affirming the terms of said contract.

No one forced anyone to read the "fine print".

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CONTRACT. This term, in its more extensive sense, includes every description of agreement, or obligation, whereby one party becomes bound to another to pay a sum of money, or to do or omit to do a certain act; or, a contract is an act which contains a perfect obligation. In its more confined sense, it is an agreement between two or more persons, concerning something to be, done, whereby both parties are bound to each other, *or one is bound to the other. 1 Pow. Contr. 6; Civ. Code of Lo. art. 1754; Code Civ. 1101; Poth. Oblig. pt. i. c. 1, S. 1, Sec. 1; Blackstone, (2 Comm. 442,) defines it to be an agreement, upon a sufficient consideration, to do or not to do a particular thing. A contract has also been defined to be a compact between two or more persons. 6 Cranch, R. 136. Bouvier's Law Dictionary, Revised 6th Ed (1856)

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Why are the soldiers in Iraq. Please give a coherent and reasonable and REALISTIC answer. So far.. my answer is that they are occupying Iraq.. that is why. and we all know why... becuase the poor iraqi's need to be saved... ahhahahhahahah

Don't ask him to respond intelligently, he can't -- he's obviously to be ranked among the board's indigenous plant life.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 No draft though.

Pay attention to what you're quoting (not sure you're comprehension of English is sufficient).

You have the mechanism of a draft without it being called that -- it appears you're dependent on official labels in order to draw basic personal conclusions.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Those people in the military are contractually obligated to live out their contractual obligations. So before you sign at the bottom line it is up to you to read the "fine print". When you sign a contract you do so affirming the terms of said contract. No one forced anyone to read the "fine print".

Right, so when you're electrocuted to death working in a plant, it's your fault because even though you read the fine print, you understood this to be not a distant potential risk, but a probable one. After all, you signed the contract.

Never disappoint yourself by expecting anything but sheeplike behaviour from sheep -- they know no different.

Get away boy, ya' bother me.

-N

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Originally posted by George Smiley Don't get me wrong, nobody knew before the war whether Saddam had WMDs

No offence George, but that's a load of crap.

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Originally posted by George Smiley But as far as the public were concerned (and again we include soldiers here) the government told us, or led us to believe, that yes, those weapons would be used, through one means or another, against the West I didn't believe they would, you didn't, but I can't really blame some people who did believe when that's what they were told by "official" sources and intelligence sources

Learn a lesosn from that then. It should tell you something about the credibility of "official sources."

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z No offence George, but that's a load of crap.

How so?

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Learn a lesosn from that then. It should tell you something about the credibility of "official sources."

Eh?

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Originally posted by George Smiley How so?

You have got to be kidding me.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Eh?

There is no reason for you to trust the media or the Govt and its affiliated agencies and institutions.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z There is no reason for you to trust the media or the Govt and its affiliated agencies and institutions.

...so where do you get your news from exectly? or know what's going on in the world for that matter? The media isn't bad at all if you know how to decode and look deeper past headlines and such.

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