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-- French ban hijabs (head-scarves)
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Originally posted by St_Andrew In Sweden for example, it is not illegal to be naked in public, neither is it illegal to wear a hijab. 100% freedom of expression can be reached.

Not really. In Sweden, people with fascist or nazi symbols will be arrested immediately and dealt with. The Swedish society agrees that even simply showing these kind of symbols in public is extremely offensive and disturbs public order.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd It's the separation of Government from religion. Schools are government institutions. The government funds, controls, and oversees them. What don't you understand about this statement?

That's very poor logic. What do you not understand about the seperation of Church and State?

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Separation of church and state From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The separation of church and state is a concept and philosophy in modern thought and practice, whereby the structures of state or national government are proposed as needing to be separate from those of religious institutions. The concept has long been a topic of political debate throughout history. The term "church" in Western civilization is usually associated with the Christian Church. However, the phrase as a whole refers to religion and religious institutions in general and its/their relationship to government. In countries where other religions are dominant, the words mosque, temple, or synagogue are often substituted... ...The separation of church and state is related to freedom of religion, but the two concepts are different and one should not infer hastily that countries with a state church do not necessarily have freedom of religion, nor should one infer that a country without a state church necessarily enjoys freedom of religion.

So what do hijabs have to do with the seperation of Church and State again? That's right, absolutely nothing!

I understand your argument about respecting other people culture etc. Fine, but what about converts who's ancestors aren't even from any other country (and there are plenty of them, even if they are a minority relatively speaking, for eg. my ex roomate grew up in Arlignton, a full blood Texan from Scottish, British and (I think) Irish descent, but he's Muslim)? So that argument doesn't necessarily work eigther. And respect has to be mutual, it's not a one way street. Since when did respect = intolerance?

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Not really. In Sweden, people with fascist or nazi symbols will be arrested immediately and dealt with. The Swedish society agrees that even simply showing these kind of symbols in public is extremely offensive and disturbs public order.

I never said Sweden was the perfect example, I just said that it's not impossible, and it should be strived for.

Although I'm pretty sure you are allowed to wear Nazi symbols in public in Sweden? You are however not allowed to for example scream out nazi propaganda in public that can be offensive to a certain group of ppl, eg "All black ppl should be killed".

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I understand your argument about respecting other people culture etc. Fine, but what about converts who's ancestors aren't even from any other country (and there are plenty of them, even if they are a minority relatively speaking, for eg. my ex roomate grew up in Arlignton, a full blood Texan from Scottish, British and (I think) Irish descent, but he's Muslim)? So that argument doesn't necessarily work eigther. And respect has to be mutual, it's not a one way street. Since when did respect = intolerance?

You can cherish your personal culture all you want, as long as you observe the country's general culture and laws.

For example Italian Americans have their Italian dinners, Irish people have their St. Patricks day, etc.

But if a boy and a girl from Armenia who are both 16 want to get married, just like they would in their native country, no one will allow that here.

Get my drift?

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Get my drift?

No.

This issue is easy to deal with.

Last year Scott came to class wearing a winter hat I didn't like. It had bright colours that I found disconcerting. So I turned to our peer group and said in a loud voice that would carry

"Let's ostracize Scott till he starts wearing a normal hat like everyone else"

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd You can cherish your personal culture all you want, as long as you observe the country's general culture and laws. For example Italian Americans have their Italian dinners, Irish people have their St. Patricks day, etc. But if a boy and a girl from Armenia who are both 16 want to get married, just like they would in their native country, no one will allow that here. Get my drift?

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges...

Here's a piece of information for shaolin_z :

While the wearing of the hijab has lowered/been forbidden in schools you can rest assured that there's many young females wearing it outside school.
I see a lot of them daily and not long ago I saw a little girl who had to be at the most 5 wearing one ( that covered up everything expect a little bit of her mouth and eyes ..... ).

Ironically there seems to be more wearing it in certain parts of France then back in Algeria/Morocco etc.

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Originally posted by jdat Here's a piece of information for shaolin_z : While the wearing of the hijab has lowered/been forbidden in schools you can rest assured that there's many young females wearing it outside school. I see a lot of them daily and not long ago I saw a little girl who had to be at the most 5 wearing one ( that covered up everything expect a little bit of her mouth and eyes ..... ). Ironically there seems to be more wearing it in certain parts of France then back in Algeria/Morocco etc.

That's nice, but I personally don't care very much if they're wearing it or not. My problem is with their RIGHT to excersice their RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS being TRAMPLED ON which the ignorant French population (75 % according to the article) SUPPORT! I'm wondering weather they're aware of the fact that wearing a hijab is considered MANDTORY by most Muslim women according the the religious text (Quran), and it not a fuckin fasion statement or a "religious symbol." I actually had some respect for the french as they strongly opposed the Iraq Invasion and our dickhead President's foreighn policy. Now I've kind of lost it since it's so obvious how intolerant they are, and how they impose secularism on religious people. That's just as bad as imposing religion on secular people.

For those of you in the States, here's your basis of argument regarding religion in schools taken by the Engel v. Vitale decision of the U.S. Supreme Court, which declared unconstitutional the inclusion of state-sponsored school prayer as a part of instruction in public schools.

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Students in U.S. public schools are free to: - Take Bibles or other religious texts with them on the school bus. - Pray alone or in groups at the flagpole or elsewhere on school grounds. - Pray in classrooms outside of regular teaching hours. - Say grace and/or pray in a school cafeteria. - Form a Bible study club or any other religious club, if even one student-led group is already allowed in the school. This is a guaranteed right under the federal Equal Access Act of 1984. - Students can wear T-shirts with religious text. They can wear religious jewelry (buttons, symbols, crosses, stars of David, pentacles, etc). - Students can hand out religious materials.

>>Source<<

Personally I don't see a big problem with the hijab either as long as it's not used as a crutch or arguement against the law of the land.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'm wondering weather they're aware of the fact that wearing a hijab is considered MANDTORY by most Muslim women according the the religious text (Quran), and it not a fuckin fasion statement or a "religious symbol."

How is it that 'most' muslim women consider hijabs manditory?
Either it is or it isn't...which is it?

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's nice, but I personally don't care very much if they're wearing it or not. My problem is with their RIGHT to excersice their RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS being TRAMPLED ON which the ignorant French population (75 % according to the article) SUPPORT! I'm wondering weather they're aware of the fact that wearing a hijab is considered MANDTORY by most Muslim women according the the religious text (Quran), and it not a fuckin fasion statement or a "religious symbol." I actually had some respect for the french as they strongly opposed the Iraq Invasion and our dickhead President's foreighn policy. Now I've kind of lost it since it's so obvious how intolerant they are, and how they impose secularism on religious people. That's just as bad as imposing religion on secular people.

I'm not debating the value that wearing the hijab represents; but when I see such anger being directed at me when I was purely stating facts I can't help but feel non impressed at the fact that a very large number of these younger females wearing the hijab do it because of family pressure especially from the father and brothers who'd kick their asses if they did otherwise.
Yeah that's freedom to choose and to belief. Sure. Just go on and blame the french.


ps: I'm not defending the way France is acting in this matter but I just think moderation is the key and I feel it is not the case on either side.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r How is it that 'most' muslim women consider hijabs manditory? Either it is or it isn't...which is it?

Well, according to most tradiotional interpretations (if not all), most people consider it manditory. It's a debated issue within the Muslim community. Here are the relevant verses:

quote:

"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed..." (Qur'an 33:59) "Say to the believing man that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; and that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands..." (Qur'an 24:30-31)

Now strictly according to the Quran, I personal don't see a necessary implication in it for women to cover their heads. I also have to admit that since I'm not a femlae, I've haven't really bothered doing much research on this topic eigther, which is why I said most Muslims consider it manditory. But one big difference between me and most other Muslims is that I don't consider anything other than the Quran itself to be an authority on religious issues (within an Islamic context ofcourse). Most other Mulisms also take into account "hadith" (saying of the Prophet), which I generally don't since there's no way to verify it's authenticity. BTW, the word "hijab" comes from the Arabic word "hajaba" meaning "to hide from view" or "conceal." But most people use the word hijab to refer to head-scarves.

quote:

Originally posted by jdat I'm not debating the value that wearing the hijab represents; but when I see such anger being directed at me when I was purely stating facts I can't help but feel non impressed at the fact that a very large number of these younger females wearing the hijab do it because of family pressure especially from the father and brothers who'd kick their asses if they did otherwise. Yeah that's freedom to choose and to belief. Sure. Just go on and blame the french.

Well I'm sorry I made you feel that way. I certaintly didn't intent to make you feel that my anger was directed at you. I'm more pissed off at French goverment for passing this law. But the fact that 75% of the population also supports it, says quite a bit about how tolerant the majority is. And please take note of what I said earlier:

quote:

I'm wondering weather they're aware of the fact that wearing a hijab is considered MANDTORY by most Muslim women according the the religious text (Quran), and it not a fuckin fasion statement or a "religious symbol."

The reason why I said that was because it hard for me to believe that 75% of the population would support it having COMPLETE knowledge of the issue, unless they think it's ok to impose secularism on religious people, or impose religion secular people, or that people should not have the freedom to practice their religion, or not practice religion. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't disagree with this new law if they believe in freedom of religion (and freedom of expression too, although this case is more related to freedom of religion).

quote:

Originally posted by jdat I can't help but feel non impressed at the fact that a very large number of these younger females wearing the hijab do it because of family pressure especially from the father and brothers who'd kick their asses if they did otherwise. Yeah that's freedom to choose and to belief. Sure.

Now that a pretty unfair and inaccurate generalization on your part. I know plenty of Muslim women who don't wear a hijab and plenty who do, and it's their own decision. Such stereo types reflect nothing but ignorance (although you're not entirely wrong to say this, this certainly isn't the general case at all).

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Originally posted by jdat ps: I'm not defending the way France is acting in this matter but I just think moderation is the key and I feel it is not the case on either side.

I don't think this issue really has much to do with moderation, it's about freedom of religion, and only the individual can choose wheather they choose to follow a religion or not, and how they choose to follow it. This new law prevents them from doing so, which is simply wrong.

You are supposed to wear a headscarf according to the christian belief as well I think? That would mean this law is equally discriminating against Christians!

Btw, I still don't support the law...

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Originally posted by St_Andrew You are supposed to wear a headscarf according to the christian belief as well I think? That would mean this law is equally discriminating against Christians!

Apparently Christian, Jewish and Muslim women have traditionaly worn a head-covering of some sort so it would suprise me if it's in the Bible too (probably the Old Testament).

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I don't think this issue really has much to do with moderation, it's about freedom of religion, and only the individual can choose wheather they choose to follow a religion or not, and how they choose to follow it. This new law prevents them from doing so, which is simply wrong.

And only in schools.


I would also like to bring to your attention that attack against Religion is not purely directed against Muslims in France.

Christians as a whole are also under repression from the governement in some ways far beyond what the muslims are getting. I'm not saying that invalidates what happens to muslims but I just thought I'd let you know.

In the public domain ( work and school arena ) the governement is trying to squash all religion and not just the symbols.

I see Mosques getting grants from the governement to be built and operate.

As a whole I feel muslims can operate as freely as they may that being set aside in the work and school place.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Apparently Christian, Jewish and Muslim women have traditionaly worn a head-covering of some sort so it would suprise me if it's in the Bible too (probably the Old Testament).

According to jewish faith men wear a kippah to be reminded of G-d who is the one above us who's meaning is fairly similar in the basic representattion then for muslims.

Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make. It's unfair for all religious people affected by it.

Instead of focusing on the ban itself why not focus on the reason for the wearing of a hijab (agree with Lopitrance's post btw) in the first place.


Some Muslims say the head-scarf is a symbol of their religion. In that case doesn't it show female opression?

Some Muslims say the head-scarf has nothing to do with their religion. In that case I think I'll wear a head-scarf myself as a fashion item Why would this cause problems then?

Some say that I am intolerant/racist for saying something like the above, why? I'm just merely stating some facts and thinking/acting rationally accordingly.

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Originally posted by Synthesia Some say that I am intolerant/racist for saying something like the above, why? I'm just merely stating some facts and thinking/acting rationally accordingly.

Thinking or acting rationally is inherently intolerant of religion!

^^hahaha that makes me laugh...you can't be serious can you

Of course I'm serious!

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Originally posted by Synthesia ^^hahaha that makes me laugh...you can't be serious can you

Of course I'm serious!

As a religious person, I'm sick of people trying to use frivolous things like logic or reason to analyze my beliefs. That's not fair. What religious people want is to be treated equally. We believe in our faith just as much as anybody else believes in their own rationality, so it's wrong for people to try to impose their logical framework on top of our faith-based beliefs.

I'm a human being too, so if you don't respect my beliefs, regardless of how stupid or irrational they might be, that clearly makes you an intolerant asshole and you should probably be drawn and quartered. I put just as much thought into my beliefs as an atheist does, as I'm sure most religious people would agree. In fact I'm going to go so far as to speak for every religious person on Earth.

What every religious person (99% of the population) wants is the respect and understanding all humans beings deserve. If we decide that our beliefs tell us that we should burn down your house, for example, you have no right to object on the basis of silly notions of logic or reason. And if you do object, then you are a bigot and we look forward to the day that you will burn in hell. Understand now?

Re: Of course I'm serious!

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Originally posted by Arbiter If we decide that our beliefs tell us that we should burn down your house, for example, you have no right to object on the basis of silly notions of logic or reason. And if you do object, then you are a bigot and we look forward to the day that you will burn in hell. Understand now?

<-- so you call logic and reason are silly notions - hahaha with all due respect, but please, how can somebody like you still be taking seriously

Isn't everything one does based on logic or reason, perhaps I should add mislogic and misconception/interpretation too. If you just believe anything or show sheepish behaviour by following others without knowing why I think you're quite helpless. If I believe it is right to kill someone then everybody should respect my belief and if not they will burn in hell will they? Hahaha...stop following the masses and the brains of others but use your own and hopefully you will come to some sort of realisation.

And about being treated equally I agree, everybody should be treated equally..Muslim women should be treated equally as Western women.

Oh and I am not an atheist btw.

Said by an 'intolerant asshole' who wrongly thinks rationally and logically about things.

Btw my first 2 questions have still not been answered in my first post...Can't they? Or do they make too much logical sense that they can not be argued against?

Re: Of course I'm serious!

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Originally posted by Arbiter What every religious person (99% of the population) wants is the respect and understanding all humans beings deserve.

99% of the population huh

Re: Re: Of course I'm serious!

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Originally posted by Synthesia 99% of the population huh

Yup.

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Isn't everything one does based on logic or reason, perhaps I should add mislogic and misconception/interpretation too. If you just believe anything or show sheepish behaviour by following others without knowing why I think you're quite helpless. If I believe it is right to kill someone then everybody should respect my belief and if not they will burn in hell will they? Hahaha...stop following the masses and the brains of others but use your own and hopefully you will come to some sort of realisation.

No, everything we do is based on faith, and if you don't respect that faith is just as good a reason for doing something as logic, then you're wrongfully biased against us (99% of the people in the world.)

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And about being treated equally I agree, everybody should be treated equally..Muslim women should be treated equally as Western women.

Of course they should, by which I mean they should be equally subject to the faith-based rules and practices in the communities that they are a part of.

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Btw my first 2 questions have still not been answered in my first post...Can't they? Or do they make too much logical sense that they can not be argued against?

There you go again, people like you are always trying to twist other people's beliefs into some some sort of logical arrangement. You try to pretend that you respect the equality of us religious people but then challenge us to fit our bleiefs into your two-dimensional conception of logic.

Haha the funny man is back

I feel like I'm ridiculing myself by trying to convince somebody that not 99% of the population is religious...

2-dimensional line of concept haha...I think I'm one of the most open-minded persons there is (around all subjects)...who here is 2 dimensional..you've immediately categorised me as a non-religious person who is an intolerant asshole because I think logically and act rationally.

Again I could pull your arguments apart easily...and you're startin to contradict yourself...you're not going to convince me that everything you do is based on faith..if you drink some water when you're thirsty are you doing this because of your faith? If you are at work trying to earn money are you doing this for faith? No, exactly.

And sorry here we have a different opinion altogether..I can not agree with a faith-based rule undermining women...you're implying that women SHOULD wear those head-scarfs because they believe are part of this faith-based community? Its not wonder that many actually start believing themselves when they are forced to believe these things from young ages and are indoctrinated in this way, against nature really - covering up hair and in some cases everything..

Oh and stop winding round the pot because you can't answer my questions in my first post

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