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IMO a workplace that makes you work for free is not a workplace worth getting. and it's actually illegal here in finland for people to work for free, so the laws do apply here. slaves work for free. employees get paid for their work.

would you give ass to some fat hairy dude if you'd get a "secure" job from him afterwards? i know i wouldn't.
if you're working for free you're getting fucked. if you like that then i think you have some issues.

uhhh. its not a question of liking it. and secondly, i already made this quite clear - THEY do NOT make you work for free. THAT *is* slavery. YOU volunteer to work for free to PROVE you have what it takes. YES - its just like slavery. like i said, come to dublin. you would love it here. this is why we have the second highest GDP in europe. does it stink of corruption? hell fu.cking yes. your point?

when you are trying to get a job and there are loads of others out there with better CVs and better qualifications then this is really something that will help.

with regards to DJing, if you had that attitude you would never get a set. not if i was around, practising everyday and willing to undercut you every time.

just ask zizack. would he give rookie A a set or rookie B a set? both are of similar ability. rookie A is willing to play for nothing and hes willing to come back every week with new shit. for free, until hes got what it takes headline an event. or is he going to give rookie B a set? a person who demands a fee up front on account of the fact that he wont work for nothing. because it equals slavery.

zizack would probably think 'got no time for people that dont have the passion, the discipline and the drive to go through shit for what they love.'

'rookie A - you got yourself a set. dont. FU.CK. UP.'

meanwhile rookie B would still be traipsing around town trying to find a complete mug to pay him money for being a newbie.

the point is that people shouldn't be made to work for free. of course you aren't forced to do it, but if you have no other chance then something should be done about that. thank god here in finland things are good in that way. i would never have believed ireland is such a undeveloped country that the situation is like that there. main point is that if you're working for free, you're getting screwed and you seem to be one who accepts that. i have principles and i won't accept getting screwed.
my own life/satisfactory is more important than some crappy job/gig, so i won't sacrifice my principles for those. apparently i am the minority here, but that's fine by me.

quote:

i would never have believed ireland is such a undeveloped country that the situation is like that there. main point is that if you're working for free, you're getting screwed and you seem to be one who accepts that. i have principles and i won't accept getting screwed.

dude. have you ever tried to get a music related job in one of the fastest growing capital cities in the world? especially with the edge living down the road in dun leghaire, louis walsh having coffee in bewleys and like 50 different studios all taking (and binning) applications of young hopefuls fresh out of school/uni/college? and the worst (read: BEST) binge drinking and clubbing culture in europe by far? your chances are like 1 in a million. if you are a DJ. HA! good luck getting a paid set anywhere in the city unless your name is big enough to put on a t-shirt and sell. its impossible unless you can prove, by whatever means necessary, you are 100% up for it. and yea, it involves doing stuff for free. thats proof you arent gonna lay down and give up. thats proof you are gonna keep bouncing back until you are good enough to get paid.

am i getting screwed by gleeson, mcgrath and baldwin solicitors? long term no. i can get too many opportunities from this. half the people there are on first name terms with some of my musical heroes. short term? hell yes. i have to borrow money to pay this months rent. but the bank of mum understands.

principles in the world of work? har har har! there are no principles in the world of work. its the chain of command in full effect. the rewards at the top are rich and plentiful. but the footsoldiers at the bottom are the ones ending face down in the dirt.

they should print this out and put it on a leaflet entitled: WELCOME TO DUBLIN. JOB CENTRE IS THIS WAY --->

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Originally posted by Tony Morello when it comes down to establishing yourself if you're great when you first start to play out, the word will catch and spread like wildfire however, if you're not that great, that reputation can follow you for a bit until you really start proving yourself that's why i said if you're not good enough to expect to be paid for playing out, even if it's a couple free drinks, something to compensate you for your time and effort you shouldn't be playing out save yourself, take some more time in the bedroom and playing house parties (those are key, i've played so many house parties while i was learning, it's mind-boggling) and really hone your skills then when you do play out, blow everyone away, and it'll catch like wildfire i found the best way to learn is to constantly be recording yourself and picking apart your mixes litterally, the only music you should be listening to for the fist while are your own mixes and just have them on repeat, constantly go over them

thats just not realistic. If you're playing out for the first time, chances are you're doing it as an opener or maybe in a lounge or bar. And as an opener or in a more low ket setting, you shouldn't be trying to "blow people away." my first gig was in a lounge as an opener..I sure as hell wasn't trying to blow people away trying to make peopel remember me....I was just trying to do my job, set a nice mood in the room and gain some experience in the process....

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative and the worst (read: BEST) binge drinking and clubbing culture in europe by far?

I agree with everything you're saying.. but what are you talking about above.. Binge drinking... yes that's definitely right, but Best Clubbing culture? Where do you go? lol

nelly

nelly go to bed ffs

I got paid 20 dollars for my second gig.


My first gig was to raise money for cancer..sooo.... they need it more than i do...

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative just ask zizack. would he give rookie A a set or rookie B a set? both are of similar ability. rookie A is willing to play for nothing and hes willing to come back every week with new shit. for free, until hes got what it takes headline an event. or is he going to give rookie B a set? a person who demands a fee up front on account of the fact that he wont work for nothing. because it equals slavery. zizack would probably think 'got no time for people that dont have the passion, the discipline and the drive to go through shit for what they love.' 'rookie A - you got yourself a set. dont. FU.CK. UP.' meanwhile rookie B would still be traipsing around town trying to find a complete mug to pay him money for being a newbie.

exactly. I am a dj first and use promoting as a way of getting parties thrown and myself on the decks...I started out like every dj a couple years ago, so I know about playing for free. When I'm throwing a party and not paying openers and closers, I'm doing it because of tight budgets, not because I'm greedy and don't want to shell out money. I want djs who can a.) throw down solid sets and b.) djs who are excited and hungry to get out there and play and guys who are gonna bring something to the party...not just play their set and leave when they get paid. I want cool kids who care as much about the sucessof the party as I do, not about how much they are getting paid. A great turnout and vibe beats out a big pay day any night of the week in my eyes.

and I also want to add that I really do try and take care of non-headlining djs as best as I can, even if they're not getting paid....by way of drink tickets etc...

quote:

Originally posted by zizack exactly. I am a dj first and use promoting as a way of getting parties thrown and myself on the decks...I started out like every dj a couple years ago, so I know about playing for free. When I'm throwing a party and not paying openers and closers, I'm doing it because of tight budgets, not because I'm greedy and don't want to shell out money. I want djs who can a.) throw down solid sets and b.) djs who are excited and hungry to get out there and play and guys who are gonna bring something to the party...not just play their set and leave when they get paid. I want cool kids who care as much about the sucessof the party as I do, not about how much they are getting paid. A great turnout and vibe beats out a big pay day any night of the week in my eyes. and I also want to add that I really do try and take care of non-headlining djs as best as I can, even if they're not getting paid....by way of drink tickets etc...

Zizack def has the right idea on whats going on with a dj starting out.

As for TOny Morello, i played one of his nights in calgary and i didnt get paid . But i did get some free drinks. which came in handy. plus tonys a really cool guy so it wasnt like employee / boss relationship, just havin fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative dude. have you ever tried to get a music related job in one of the fastest growing capital cities in the world? especially with the edge living down the road in dun leghaire, louis walsh having coffee in bewleys and like 50 different studios all taking (and binning) applications of young hopefuls fresh out of school/uni/college? and the worst (read: BEST) binge drinking and clubbing culture in europe by far? your chances are like 1 in a million. if you are a DJ. HA! good luck getting a paid set anywhere in the city unless your name is big enough to put on a t-shirt and sell. its impossible unless you can prove, by whatever means necessary, you are 100% up for it. and yea, it involves doing stuff for free. thats proof you arent gonna lay down and give up. thats proof you are gonna keep bouncing back until you are good enough to get paid. am i getting screwed by gleeson, mcgrath and baldwin solicitors? long term no. i can get too many opportunities from this. half the people there are on first name terms with some of my musical heroes. short term? hell yes. i have to borrow money to pay this months rent. but the bank of mum understands. principles in the world of work? har har har! there are no principles in the world of work. its the chain of command in full effect. the rewards at the top are rich and plentiful. but the footsoldiers at the bottom are the ones ending face down in the dirt. they should print this out and put it on a leaflet entitled: WELCOME TO DUBLIN. JOB CENTRE IS THIS WAY --->

no i haven't and never will. i will not work in any music related things. music is something i do out of passion, not for money and work is something i do to get money. i'm just fucking glad i don't live in such a ghetto country (the bolded part). i feel sorry for anyone who does.

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Originally posted by zizack thats just not realistic. If you're playing out for the first time, chances are you're doing it as an opener or maybe in a lounge or bar. And as an opener or in a more low ket setting, you shouldn't be trying to "blow people away." my first gig was in a lounge as an opener..I sure as hell wasn't trying to blow people away trying to make peopel remember me....I was just trying to do my job, set a nice mood in the room and gain some experience in the process....

I kind of agree.

Yes, you are doing the right thing in respecting the time slot and it's good that you didn't take the place appart by trying to raise the roof.

But what I think TM is getting at is more, how you do it. You can play a warm up set and do it well. Your job at that point is to make more low key music seem great and make people want to dance (if applicable) etc.

Think of it more as being a flirt so you can tease them with some pretty good stuff as long as you don't exceed the BPM and energy of the main guy. It is tough though as some promoters and club owners can't tell the difference between a well played set that gets people excited and having a sucky DJ come on afterwards and make it seem like you didn't respect the slot.

The main point is really to do your job well.

The real chance to blow people away is either when you get a closing slot or a main one.

In my opinion it is more important to get the respect of the DJs you work with rather than the crowd when you start out. Followings start in time but you have to be able to work with the people around you. So in actual fact I think you did the right thing Zizack.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by skip IMO a workplace that makes you work for free is not a workplace worth getting. and it's actually illegal here in finland for people to work for free, so the laws do apply here. slaves work for free. employees get paid for their work. would you give ass to some fat hairy dude if you'd get a "secure" job from him afterwards? i know i wouldn't. if you're working for free you're getting fucked. if you like that then i think you have some issues.

You are correct in principle but...

You haven't got the same level of competition in Finland as you have in Ireland or the UK. Getting a paying DJ job is like gold dust when you first start out.
I live in Brighton where the amount of DJs is nearly more than you have pigeons the only difference being that DJs don't shit allover statues and stuff.

Seriously though, the level of competition is insane. And there are really good DJs working for free here too.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 But what I think TM is getting at is more, how you do it. You can play a warm up set and do it well. Your job at that point is to make more low key music seem great and make people want to dance (if applicable) etc.

exactly

you "blew them away" by playing the best opening slot you can play

build it up for the headliner while not taking the wind out of their sails

a good opening dj is worth their weight in gold

quote:

Originally posted by Tony Morello a good opening dj is worth their weight in gold

So you should ask for a couple mil for any 30 minute opening gig

nyc

I specifically asked this question geared to NYC
Most of you guys have gone on crazy rants that don't really relate to this. I think the market in nyc is unique because even though it may be competitive I feel it is unsaturated like markets in europe or even canada. Anyway, I think I know what I need to do now. I also think it is clear everyone seems to get into djing by doing something else, there is no clear cut way to do it so I will figure it out for myself

Re: nyc

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Originally posted by Scolomon I specifically asked this question geared to NYC Most of you guys have gone on crazy rants that don't really relate to this. I think the market in nyc is unique because even though it may be competitive I feel it is unsaturated like markets in europe or even canada. Anyway, I think I know what I need to do now. I also think it is clear everyone seems to get into djing by doing something else, there is no clear cut way to do it so I will figure it out for myself

Dude don't kid yourself.

Yes a lot of people ranted here but saying New York is unsaturated show that you are clueless.


Do play out in New York you usually have to start something yourself and build from there and you are given the option to play somewhere.

In regards to getting paid or not it's your call.

My belief is as others have said:
If the night is bringing in money then I'm not leaving without something in my pocket
If I'm playing for a friend for a one off thing I won't mind as much if I get nothing.

quote:

but Best Clubbing culture? Where do you go? lol

nah the clubbing culture is awful. i mean - we have spirit and a bunch of other dodgy haunts :\ bit new age for my tastes. the binge drinking makes it a cut above the rest though. every place is the best place evar when you are too pissed to care when i first came here i thought the irish had a drinking problem. i guess they see it the other way around - the rest of the world just doesnt drink enough. hah.

nothing like stumbling home at 6 am and seeing the wreckage (often i have to walk through temple bar). the carnage on bank holiday weekends is astonishing. you can count the pools of vomit from british stag parties and the ambulances cruising around. its like a warzone. but anywho...

greetings fellow dubliner!

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative the carnage on bank holiday weekends is astonishing. you can count the pools of vomit from british stag parties and the ambulances cruising around. its like a warzone. but anywho...

He he, sounds like west street in Brighton on any weekend. Lots of Londoners come down for the weekends and think they are going bash the heads in of Brightoners and end up fighting other people from London... strange sense of poetic justice in that me thinks. A bunch of Chavs (Neds, scallies etc.) going apeshit in the mainstream clubs... I must be getting old.

Brighton's club scene is ok but tends to be dominated by hippy student indie rock or Drum and Bass. Couple of good house nights and a good trance night (depending on who the name is).

Hurray for UK and Ireland bindge drinking, it's what makes us different from the rest of Europe...

first i open with a rant:

first of none of you DJ...for crying out loud the acronym DJ stands for Disk Jockey. That is a noun not a verb, so stop using as a verb. as a DJ you mix, spin, play records...use the correct grammar...

as far as gettind paid:...one is only worth as much as his audience is willing to pay for.

if you are asked to play then it's your right to negotiate payment. in the beging, most likely asking a large sum will get you a shut door, but being able to read the promoter and give him a price (to let him know you don't put in effort and work for free). if he can't afford to pay you, or you don't have a name...get something from him...drinks, entrace to some big events...but don't play for absolutely nothing. now careful i'm not saying you should getting money in return for your service, but don't accept rapidly a gig for no payment because then when you ask for payment you will not get called back.

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Originally posted by alligator first i open with a rant: first of none of you DJ...for crying out loud the acronym DJ stands for Disk Jockey. That is a noun not a verb, so stop using as a verb. as a DJ you mix, spin, play records...use the correct grammar...

Rant noted.
Whilst you are indeed correct stating what is fact according to both Oxford and Cambridge standards in English, the verb 'DJ' is a coloquialism that has grown in large part by those outside the culture using it to describe and put into context something that is otherwise foreign to them.

This is an international forum with many non-native English speakers who take part. If everyone understands what is meant by a term even if it is grammatically incorrect then at least we have a common understanding.
Besides, if you really have a burning desire to educate those in need of grammatical assistance I would first stop off and any Hip Hop forum you care to name, as they are in far greater need of it than we are... well most of us.

And no, when you start working in a public environment building a reputation outweighs the financial. If people get to know you and have a good time and you build up a following, that is what puts you in a position to negotiate financial compensation. If you draw a crowd, promoters and club owners have to take you seriously. Because if you draw a crowd you can take that crowd with you.
I have done it, and I know others who have.

Your very first steps should be to get to know other DJs and work your way up, promoters, clubowners etc. Most promoters hear about you from DJs anway.

Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Rant noted. Whilst you are indeed correct stating what is fact according to both Oxford and Cambridge standards in English, the verb 'DJ' is a coloquialism that has grown in large part by those outside the culture using it to describe and put into context something that is otherwise foreign to them. This is an international forum with many non-native English speakers who take part. If everyone understands what is meant by a term even if it is grammatically incorrect then at least we have a common understanding. Besides, if you really have a burning desire to educate those in need of grammatical assistance I would first stop off and any Hip Hop forum you care to name, as they are in far greater need of it than we are... well most of us. Nem

my rant is mostly at the ones who consider themselve DJs...or are DJs...at least the one who practice mixing should use the words that describe their passion, past time or hobby correctly...if we the ones who practice cannot communicate and use the words in the correct sense of the word...then why expect the outsiders to.

as far as hip hop goes, i've never been a huge fan of it and i also think it's quality is overrated (but then again i have the chance to live on the north american continent)

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 And no, when you start working in a public environment building a reputation outweighs the financial. If people get to know you and have a good time and you build up a following, that is what puts you in a position to negotiate financial compensation. If you draw a crowd, promoters and club owners have to take you seriously. Because if you draw a crowd you can take that crowd with you. I have done it, and I know others who have. Your very first steps should be to get to know other DJs and work your way up, promoters, clubowners etc. Most promoters hear about you from DJs anway.

yes, one very important point i forgot to mention

you want to be out, all the time, everywhere... see and be seen

become anyone and everyone's friend

then when it comes time to play, call every single last one

know your scene and everyone important in it

other djs become your new best friends, this is an industry of who you know
promoters do hear about other djs from their djs and djs they know

and yes, if you can't draw a crowd, you don't have anything to sell

i've had djs come down and not put any effort into promoting themselves and it's shown
the only people there were the regulars, they couldn't pull a crowd
so they just don't get another phone call for a while

Asking for money is not about not having passion or anything like that its respect for the professionals. I been screwed out of getting photoshoots, because some guy has a digital point and shoot and will do it for free. I can only imagine how much this pisses off those of you who spend hard earned money on music, just to be undercut by some freebie. It only hurts the craft in the end.

quote:

And no, when you start working in a public environment building a reputation outweighs the financial. If people get to know you and have a good time and you build up a following, that is what puts you in a position to negotiate financial compensation. If you draw a crowd, promoters and club owners have to take you seriously. Because if you draw a crowd you can take that crowd with you. I have done it, and I know others who have.

very much agreed.

basilf it is not killing the craft. killing the craft of writing music and spinning records is thinking that you should be paid before you do anything. sorry, but smoking up and spinning records when inspiration hits doesnt cut it in the DJ industry just as it doesnt cut it in any industry period. you have to graft for it.

the people i respect the most in this industry are the ones that made it on their own initiative. the people who didnt give a shit about pay, or put it on hold because its something they love doing and it doesnt feel like work. or who worked a shit 9 to 5 and still had the dedication to practice spinning when they got home from work.

if i was employing someone, i would be impressed if someone would go through hardship for what they love doing. because it says alot about the character of that person and very likely what their work is like. how much effort they put into it, how meticulous they are. whether or not they are the type of person who would try to outdo themselves and everyone else.

a person who will spin for free, and practice every day until he can get a residency on top of earning money by working a 9 to 5 says to me: this guy is hard working. this guy really loves what he is doing and has the drive to stick around in this industry and not get bored and quit. this guy is humble. this guy isnt arrogant enough to presume that it is his right to get money for the service he is providing - this person realises that in the real world you *earn* your place. this guy doesnt make any excuses for what he is doing.

i guess thats what separates a real professional DJ and someone who just beatmatches some records when he feels like it.

i can tell you right now that if i was in zizack or nem's position, i would always hire that person instead of you. because that dude really really *really* wants it. and i sense that you dont. otherwise you would do what he does.

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