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-- Do you want to do something about the homeless people you see?
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Couldn't we just make it illegal for people to be homeless?

Now just follow me with that thought a little further.....

Jails may be overcrowded, but who says these types need to be housed with the rest of "real" criminals?

Basically I look at it this way, make it illegal to be homeless, then give them a place to stay, some structure, but also put them to work, since you now have a cheap and "willing" workforce at your disposal. Perhaps doing some of the shit jobs that no one else wants to do for a while might give them some motivation, otherwise at least they're doing a service for society instead of being a charity case. Money from the contracts the jails get could be used to partly fund the programs, and although getting paid below minimum, they gain working experience, have housing, meals, access to learning and education, etc. I'd rather have my money paying for something like that rather than seeing ppl give a few bucks here and there to individuals, because that really doesn't help anyone.

At the least, this may deter some of those homeless who choose to pandhandle to make money because it's easier than actually getting a job. Consider how much take home pay is for a minimum wager and you'll figure a panhandler could prolly easy make that as well, and thus choose to do that, which I think is bs since it really does make it even harder to help those that really need it.

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Originally posted by Tranceplanted Basically I look at it this way, make it illegal to be homeless, then give them a place to stay, some structure, but also put them to work, since you now have a cheap and "willing" workforce at your disposal. Perhaps doing some of the shit jobs that no one else wants to do for a while might give them some motivation, otherwise at least they're doing a service for society instead of being a charity case. Money from the contracts the jails get could be used to partly fund the programs, and although getting paid below minimum, they gain working experience, have housing, meals, access to learning and education, etc. I'd rather have my money paying for something like that rather than seeing ppl give a few bucks here and there to individuals, because that really doesn't help anyone.

This has been looked at in the past. It's not contitutional. First, making living without a residence illegal would be a violation of our freedom of mobility. Moreover, if the government mandates something that has a cost associated with it they must also provide for that cost to be covered by those that cannot pay it themselves.... in this case, the government would have to supply housing to all who could not afford it otherwise the law would be unenforcable. Finally, it is unconstitutional to force inmates to work in this country.... I cannot recall the citation but this was a recent (last 5 years or so) Supreme Court decision.

BTW, I like the idea... too bad the C of R and F doesn't allow for it.

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Originally posted by Floorwhore I think it does help. It helps them from not completely losing their minds, and makes them feel like a human being, and not a disease infested street pigeon that shits on windshields!!

If you really want to help then bring him into your house and take care of him like any pet.

I agree with Moral here. All we are doing when we throw them some change is keep sustaining their lives and allowing them to continue on day to day. This is not solving the problem. We either have to take drastic measures and force them into housing and work or get rid of the problem by cutting them off completely.

Personally, I pay tax for hospitals, for police, for all sorts of social services, including shelters, money sent abroad, and still get people around every corner begging for money. I don't mind helping out a misfortuned once in a while, but GO OUT AND GET A JOB. I'm sorry, but a lot of these people do not seem to TRULY desire those things you and I "take for granted" (I say that in quotes, cuz it's only those born here into the middle class that have known nothing less, and take it for granted). This country has enough institutions and programmes and plans to help out anyone who is needy, and WHO IS WILLING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!
Go to a shelter, clean yourself up, they'll help you. Go to a church, get some clothes, go to social asistance, get a resume, work at McDonalds, do what you need to.
I work, every day, and every day half of what I make is taken to pay for criminals to live comfortably, for social institutions to "help the needy" and for any other number of social parasites that all seem to believe that I somehow owe it, through my moral and ethical beliefs, more money.
f*** that.
My parents came here with not a single penny to their name, and just the clothes on our backs, just as many, many, many other families and individuals that call Toronto, and the rest of Canada, their home. If so many can do it, what is the excuse for those that don't?

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard This has been looked at in the past. It's not contitutional. First, making living without a residence illegal would be a violation of our freedom of mobility. Moreover, if the government mandates something that has a cost associated with it they must also provide for that cost to be covered by those that cannot pay it themselves.... in this case, the government would have to supply housing to all who could not afford it otherwise the law would be unenforcable. Finally, it is unconstitutional to force inmates to work in this country.... I cannot recall the citation but this was a recent (last 5 years or so) Supreme Court decision. BTW, I like the idea... too bad the C of R and F doesn't allow for it.

Is it really illegal to force inmates to work? So work gangs and such are all volunteer? Hmm, didn't know that, color me educated today.

Yeah, I kinda figured everything you said there, and didn't really think making it illegal to be homeless would fly, but the general gist is that there needs to be a centralized support and infrastructure that does more than simply provide shelters. And there definitely has to be some motivation for these individuals, and forcing them to provide a service I think is more beneficial for all (meaning mostly me, but hey, I'm a selfish bastard.... )than hoping they'll simply turn it around on their own. Did not know specifically the things that were hampering that type of movement, so I officially call today not a waste. Back to playing Tiger Woods 2006.....

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Originally posted by Tranceplanted Is it really illegal to force inmates to work? So work gangs and such are all volunteer? Hmm, didn't know that, color me educated today.

Actually, they are usually either "community service" sentances (which are allowed because it is an alternative to incarceration... if you refuse the community service you can serve jail time instead), or they are paid.... that's right paid. We pay inmates to do the work you see them doing. We don't pay them very much (in the 20-50 cent range) but it isn't strictly volunteer.

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Originally posted by chinamon i think we should have a dedicated area in the city where all the homeless are confined and we can urinate on them.

LOL I think you meant that with the best of intentions, i.e. to keep them warm in the winter, right?

I understand your argument, Moral, but even your suggestion of indifference (i.e. allow the laws of nature to take care of it) will not help. Homeless people have a lot of time on their hands, and they don't have the restrictive lives that we have (e.g. work, study, family, etc.) so I'm pretty sure they will continue to beg until they die (like they do in Pakistan). And you have a steady stream of homeless people, whether from within the community or from outside, so this problem will never be solved whether you give loonies or not.

Therefore, if SOMEONE feels better from it (e.g. Floorwhore when he gives his loonie) why not? That's the only benefit. Your method doesn't help any more than his. Theoretically your suggestion would work, but it would never work in practicality--these people will NEVER stop begging--they've been doing it too long and they actually like it.

Back to the original message, arek, I think that's a great idea. If a whole bunch of other TAs show up at this thing, I would do (my normal friends are too snooty to give up their warm beds for this night)...who's up for this?

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Originally posted by fayraree I understand your argument, Moral, but even your suggestion of indifference (i.e. allow the laws of nature to take care of it) will not help. Homeless people have a lot of time on their hands, and they don't have the restrictive lives that we have (e.g. work, study, family, etc.) so I'm pretty sure they will continue to beg until they die (like they do in Pakistan).

There's the key.... until they die.... if don't give them money they will die quicker. Some people would see this as a bad thing, however, I see it as the more humane way. Why let them continue to suffer when we can reduce their suffering by simply letting them die.

You don't waste resources trying to fix a wall that is so delapadated it will never be structurally sound, you destroy it and build a new one in it's place.

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Originally posted by Floorwhore I dont think tossing a loonie to a homeless kid who wipes the shit off of my windshield really makes the situation worse.

It helps him in a short-run, sure, but in the long-run it sets him up for failure... because he will now depend on YOU to toss him that loonie every single time he cleans your windshield. And he won't TRY to do something else to get off the streets.

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced I think you should hold off on feeling bad for them until you know why they are homeless. many are homeless due to there own actions....and refuse help when it is given to them.

exactly...

and I still don't see the point of sleeping out (the original post) in the square? what good is that gonna do?

you're better off just donating some $$$ to one of the charities that deals with homeless or sending a few letters to the mayor... or a zillion other things. talking to homeless maybe? educating them that they're setting themselves up for a failure if they keep doing what they're doing? and it doesn't take you 12 hours of useless 'sleeping out' to do that.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Actually, they are usually either "community service" sentances (which are allowed because it is an alternative to incarceration... if you refuse the community service you can serve jail time instead), or they are paid.... that's right paid. We pay inmates to do the work you see them doing. We don't pay them very much (in the 20-50 cent range) but it isn't strictly volunteer.

Oh, sorry, I was vague there, I suppose. What I meant by volunteer, was are they volunteering to do these services or jobs, or are they told to do them regardless of their own choice, which would more or less then be forced to work. I was already aware they were being paid a pittance when they do the work.

Community service is a different thing altogether, and don't really think it comes into play with this argument, since it wouldn't provide anything other than labour, but would still most likely leave them on the streets.

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Originally posted by Crazy Serb It helps him in a short-run, sure, but in the long-run it sets him up for failure... because he will now depend on YOU to toss him that loonie every single time he cleans your windshield. And he won't TRY to do something else to get off the streets.

Also, I think you have to question the quality of what your paying for.... my windshield is rarely ever cleaner afterwards.....

Next time that happens, I'm just gonna say that one is on the house, just like I'd do if I received sub par service from any other business.

interesting discussion...my thoughts:

- the 'sleepout' is good for publicity and exerting a little political pressure...far from useless, but I'd suggest that every person who's willing to show up there donating even $10 to a local charity would result in *far* greater change than just sleeping in a park. Hell, do both!

- a significant percentage of the homeless are indeed mentally ill and in need of ongoing treatment. Problem: unless someone poses an imminent danger to either themselves or the public, you can't force them to obtain treatment. Many won't accept treatment and many aren't in the frame of mind to seek it out even if they do want it. It's a bit of a cyclical issue and I'm honeslty not sure how to solve it.

- quoting Nietzsche or natural selection is a bit harsh...maybe I'm naive, but I'd like to think our society is a bit more compassionate than a cold, elitist existentialist or one that subscribes to a survival-of-the-fittest mentality. Some people develop drug addictions and have a great support system of family, friends, employers, etc. to help them recover. some people don't and end up on the street. That's NOT natural selection...that's circumstance...and someone shouldn't have to suffer because they don't have the good fortune to have that support system that others enjoy.

Having said that, I think support systems SHOULD be factored into our social safety net. 'Back in the day', if you lost your job, your family helped you out...you didn't just immediately collect EI or go on welfare...what happened to the sense of obligation, pride, and compassion from families and friends? Problem again is that we can't legislate this...but we DO put it into practice in other areas, such as OSAP ("sorry, your parents earn enough to set aside money for your education"), so why we can't at least factor it into our social safety net is beyond me as well.

before I rant too much, I'll suggest this:

while it's great to send relief overseas, we also need to look after our own backyard too. Protests and demonstrations are great ways to raise awareness, but I trust that each and every one of us here can also afford to hand over *at least* $10-20 to a *local* charity.

If you're at a complete loss of where to send some of your pocket money, I'll suggest the United Way who have local agencies all over the country.

www.unitedway.ca

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Originally posted by chinamon i think we should have a dedicated area in the city where all the homeless are confined and we can urinate on them.

Hhahahah I laughed like hell

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Originally posted by MarkT - quoting Nietzsche or natural selection is a bit harsh...maybe I'm naive, but I'd like to think our society is a bit more compassionate than a cold, elitist existentialist or one that subscribes to a survival-of-the-fittest mentality.

That's the problem.... people like to believe as you do but they are wrong. While Nietzsche may sound cold and uncarring he professes his position out of love. His contention is that by pitying people and helping them we really just allow them to continue to live in their sub-standard manner. He argues that if we were trully compasionate we would force them to face the worst of their situation. Once faced with the worst they will either rise to overcome it or they will perish before it. Either way they are better off then staying as they were...... kind of like putting a starving man in a room with a bear, either he'll beat the bear and no longer be starving or the bear with kill him.... both outcomes are better then dying of starvation.

LOL I just reread my post and I realized I wrote, "normal friends" for my non-TA friends!!! LOLLLLL!!!!! That's right, you guys are all ABNORMAL Sorry about that, I meant the friends I hang out with on a daily basis; the non-TA ones (but I'm beginning to hang out with my TA friends a bit more regularly now! )

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard if don't give them money they will die quicker...Why let them continue to suffer when we can reduce their suffering by simply letting them die.

I'm not sure that a) they would die any quicker without money handed out on the street because there will always be places for them to go to survive: United Way, garbage dumps, etc. and b) whether they are actually all suffering (except for when they freeze their balls in the winter)...like I said, some may actually enjoy what they do (even you recognized that some might have RATIONALLY chosen this path of life). Even then, giving or taking loonie won't make any difference. What WILL make a difference is if registered charities stop taking care of poor people (not just homeless). Now THAT is something totally different, and if you're against that, then we've got some fightin' words to exchange

Oh, and of course you laughed like hell, Vertigo, you sadistic SOB

^^^^ actually Fahad, I was refering to all charity as exacerbating the problem, not just those giving change.

Dude, you're living in the wrong hemisphere, then!

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Originally posted by fayraree Dude, you're living in the wrong hemisphere, then!

No, I'm just ahead of my time. We're all still clinging to this outdated Christian morality here.... we haven't figured out that a) it doesn't work, and b) it actually exacerbates many of the problems we seek to solve by it. Once we realize that necessity trully is the best motivator and not all life is worth saving we'll be much better off.

I'm sure Charles Manson told his cult that he was ahead of his time, too!

Seriously, though, you benefit from the same Christian-based system that you criticize. The free-market system (yes I know it's not pure but you know what I mean), the media (even though it might be controlled--you have Internet), technology, tastes, personal style...this is all thanks to our economy and stable political system. I know you want to change a part of it (the charitable part) but that is a HUGE part of it!!! I don't think it's possible; the human nature of sympathy is far too embedded into our lives, cultures, GOVERNMENT (like it SHOULD be).

Re: Do you want to do something about the homeless people you see?

quote:

Originally posted by arek Do you want to do something about the homeless people you see? Do you get tired of being asked for money every time you pass a homeless person? Do you get tired of being asked for change on your way to dinner at your favourite restaurant? Or on your way home?

yeah im sick of it too. lets kick their fuckin assess. TOGETHER PPL WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.


GET A JOB BUMS!

^^^^Uh, I just changed my mind.

Nevermind, Moral!

i was thinking an awesome solution was to make a game show.....sorta like running man with arnold schwartzneger. but itll be a maze and each wrong cornber will be filled with things like alligator pits and fuckin cool stuff like that. and if they make it to the end of the maze they get a million dollars worth of crack which they can cut with baking soda and sell on the streets and make double. itll all be televised

quote:

Originally posted by fayraree Seriously, though, you benefit from the same Christian-based system that you criticize. The free-market system (yes I know it's not pure but you know what I mean), the media (even though it might be controlled--you have Internet), technology, tastes, personal style...this is all thanks to our economy and stable political system. I know you want to change a part of it (the charitable part) but that is a HUGE part of it!!! I don't think it's possible; the human nature of sympathy is far too embedded into our lives, cultures, GOVERNMENT (like it SHOULD be).

You cannot equate the free-market system to being part and parcel with christian based morality or any other construct of Christianity. The system of trade and barter existed long before Christ.... hell it existed before Homo Sapien Sapiens..... IT'S OLDER THEN WE ARE! Being as everything else you mentioned is an off shoot of the economy I don't think the rest of your post needs to be addressed.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think all charity is bad. I'm a fascist, which is one of the most social political/economic ideologies. The problem I have particularly with homelessness (but also with other things such as sub-saharan starvation and excessive care for the terminally ill) is that we must learn to recognize that if the cost exceeds the benefit then we as a people are hurt, not helped, by it. With regard to helping the homeless..... it requires a lot of resources and gerneally does not yeild results that would outweigh those resources or even a demonstrably better quality of life for those we mean to help. Since this is the case our efforts hurt rather then help..... no amount of loonies or camping at city hall is going to change that.

or another idea is we can get rid all of the animals at the zoo and fill the cages with homeless ppl and charge admission. we can use the money we fed the animals with to feed the homeless and they can provide family entertainment.

Last year homeless guy "kindly" pointed out that i HAVE to give him money while standing right in front of my car on Spadina Avenue,after I refused to do so,he almost crashed my front rear window with a stone.

My point: they dont want help? let em be. Atleast we dont have Canadian WWII veterans struggling like in post soviet union countries where they are forced to do the same thing to be able to survive.

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