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Originally posted by Transmotion Schizophrenia is not a serious mental illness

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?

I cannot believe you just said that. Where do you get your information?!?!

Alright, well barring the home schooling issue and on a more serious note...

I agree with RJ. If they can support the child financially, that's good enough for me. We can go back and forth about "exceptions" to the rule forever. Yeah, maybe the won the lottery - but how many people win the lottery, honestly? Okay, maybe they inherited the money. But if their parents were that successful, surely they were smart enough to appoint a 3rd-party to manage their mentally-handicapped children's inheritance. Okay, maybe they robbed a bank for that money, but that's really society's fault for not catching them and throwing them in jail.

It's pointless to talk about exceptions because policy has to be based on the general case, and in general, if someone's able to make enough money to support a child, surely they can also teach their child to be self-reliant. Maybe they WON'T teach their children that, but there are plenty of mentally "well" parents that fail to teach their children proper values or survival skills. I don't think mental handicap precludes one from imparting those skills, nor does mental fitness automatically mean they will be imparted.

The bottom line is, if they're functioning members of society, it's not your place to decide whether or not they can breed. If we say that the mentally handicapped children, why not people on welfare? If they aren't self-reliant themselves, how can they possibly teach their children to be?

Hahahah I'm not going to say a goddamn thing.

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Originally posted by Theresa VERY untrue. I have worked in and have visited several psyche wards, and have met many "mentally handicapped" people with children. I am not sure where you get this information, but I know that there are enough out there that are certainly abled.

i said MOSTLY not ALL

about where i got the information from ; my mother is a doctor.

and about being in psyche wards.. you never thought that those people maybe were not mentally ill when they born?

Sex education for the mentally disabled:

[[ LINK REMOVED ]]

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Originally posted by Cosmic Fur Sex education for the mentally disabled: [[ LINK REMOVED ]]

Hahah saw this a few years back and it never ceases to make me laugh uncontrollably.

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Originally posted by Transmotion i said MOSTLY not ALL about where i got the information from ; my mother is a doctor. and about being in psyche wards.. you never thought that those people maybe were not mentally ill when they born?

Typically a person is born with a defective gene that can spawn and allow a handicap to develop. In some people it will not, whereas others, more likely in drug and alcohol abusers, the gene will.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!? I cannot believe you just said that. Where do you get your information?!?!

do you understand what Schizophrenia is?

lets make an example: sick person stands near cashier in the supermarket. suddenly person becomes obsessed with this idea about should he/she take green "chocolate bar" or the "red one" ,based on that person cannot make the decision on wich one he/she wants and starts to panic.


Ofcourse not all people who are mentally ill are on the same stage of sickness.

quote:

Originally posted by Transmotion do you understand what Schizophrenia is? lets make an example: sick person stands near cashier in the supermarket. suddenly person becomes obsessed with this idea about should he/she take green "chocolate bar" or the "red one" ,based on that person cannot make the decision on wich one he/she wants and starts to panic. Ofcourse not all people who are mentally ill are on the same stage of sickness.

Do I understand it?

I have two family members who have been diagnosed with it, so I understand it on an intimate level.

Different Types of Schizophrenia:
Paranoid schizophrenia a person feels extremely suspicious, persecuted, grandiose, or experiences a combination of these emotions.

Disorganized schizophrenia a person is often incoherent but may not have delusions.

Catatonic schizophrenia a person is withdrawn, mute, negative and often assumes very unusual postures.

Residual schizophrenia a person is no longer delusion or hallucinating, but has no motivation or interest in life. These symptoms can be most devastating.


Schizophrenia is characterized by at least 2 of the following symptoms, for at least one month:

* Delusions
* Hallucinations
* Disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence)
* Grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
* Negative symptoms (e.g., a "flattening" of one's emotions, alogia, avolition; see below)

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!? I cannot believe you just said that. Where do you get your information?!?!

Last i checked, people with schizophrenia could control it to a certain extent, and sometimes fully, with the proper drugs. Are you saying that based on a mental disease (that is capable of being controlled) the person should not have children?! wtf.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa Do I understand it? I have two family members who have been diagnosed with it, so I understand it on an intimate level. Different Types of Schizophrenia: Paranoid schizophrenia a person feels extremely suspicious, persecuted, grandiose, or experiences a combination of these emotions. Disorganized schizophrenia a person is often incoherent but may not have delusions. Catatonic schizophrenia a person is withdrawn, mute, negative and often assumes very unusual postures. Residual schizophrenia a person is no longer delusion or hallucinating, but has no motivation or interest in life. These symptoms can be most devastating. Schizophrenia is characterized by at least 2 of the following symptoms, for at least one month: * Delusions * Hallucinations * Disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence) * Grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior * Negative symptoms (e.g., a "flattening" of one's emotions, alogia, avolition; see below)

And now tell me that schizophrenia is a serious mental illness.

quote:

Originally posted by Transmotion and about being in psyche wards.. you never thought that those people maybe were not mentally ill when they born?

Totally agree with this too. Some people develop these illnesses later in life, what if a woman suddenly develops some mental illness while pregnant? Should she not be allowed to have the child?

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Originally posted by Transmotion And now tell me that schizophrenia is a serious mental illness.

I honestly feel that it is a serious disease.

A person who hears voices, or sees things that are not there has a serious problem. This has a severe impact on their lives and others.

And loca, there are drugs that can help a person with schizophrenia control the hallucinations and the effects of the disease, but these drugs do not always help, and do not always help all of the ailments. I know one of them is called "Diazepam", my relative takes this, but it does not help with the anxiety and the paranoia. Do I think they should have control over a child? As much as I love them... no.

quote:

Originally posted by loca Totally agree with this too. Some people develop these illnesses later in life, what if a woman suddenly develops some mental illness while pregnant? Should she not be allowed to have the child?

If she is unable to maintain her own mental stability, I don't think so.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa If she is unable to maintain her own mental stability, I don't think so.

But how could you be sure of that before the proper medication has been given? It may take a little time before her doctor decides on the correct one. In the mean time, is she supposed to get rid of the child "just in case"? Damn it, who said it was okay to play God and decide who gets to have kids and who doesn't?

quote:

Originally posted by loca But how could you be sure of that before the proper medication has been given? It may take a little time before her doctor decides on the correct one. In the mean time, is she supposed to get rid of the child "just in case"? Damn it, who said it was okay to play God and decide who gets to have kids and who doesn't?

In the meantime though, is it fair to a child at such a young age (the most influential and important years of your life by the way,) to be subjected to someone who is clearly unsound?

EDIT: Might I add that a lot of the drugs used to help people with such diseases have bad side effects, which can also affect a child.

Theresa, what if one day they spread this thinking to physically disabled as well? Or to people who have cancer or other diseases which may end their life prematurely? Since the precedent is already in place it would be much easier to prevent someone with cancer from having kids.

And who should be the ones to decide who can reproduce? The government? I dont even trust them with my money let alone my NATURAL GOD GIVEN RIGHTS.

Who are we to judge who is fit and who isnt?

I once again say that you can have your hitler germany but i want no part of it.

I find the very idea highly offensive, especially since i once had a physically handicapped brother. Id be damned if anyone told him what he could or could not do when it comes to child bearing.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa In the meantime though, is it fair to a child at such a young age (the most influential and important years of your life by the way,) to be subjected to someone who is clearly unsound? EDIT: Might I add that a lot of the drugs used to help people with such diseases have bad side effects, which can also affect a child.

well then thats it, millions of welfare women should also have their tubes tied. It would be unfair for the kid otherwise since stats show that low income families have a higher rate of abuse.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Theresa, what if one day they spread this thinking to physically disabled as well? Or to people who have cancer or other diseases which may end their life prematurely? Since the precedent is already in place it would be much easier to prevent someone with cancer from having kids. And who should be the ones to decide who can reproduce? The government? I dont even trust them with my money let alone my NATURAL GOD GIVEN RIGHTS. Who are we to judge who is fit and who isnt? I once again say that you can have your hitler germany but i want no part of it. I find the very idea highly offensive, especially since i once had a physically handicapped brother. Id be damned if anyone told him what he could or could not do when it comes to child bearing.

Alright, I understand where you are coming from, and like I said, I am on the fence when it comes to this.

However, I do not think it fair to leave a helpless child with someone who is unsound, without any other option. A lot of the time, the kids don't even realize that "mommy" or "daddy" is any different, and they develop some very hindering attributes to their personalities. Once they find out, it can also be a very damaging experience.

In the end, my concern is more for the child, not so much the parent.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 well then thats it, millions of welfare women should also have their tubes tied. It would be unfair for the kid otherwise since stats show that low income families have a higher rate of abuse.

There is a very clear difference between the situations.

A "high rate of abuse" isn't gauranteed compared to a definite disabilty to the parents capacity to raise a child if mentally handicapped.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa In the meantime though, is it fair to a child at such a young age (the most influential and important years of your life by the way,) to be subjected to someone who is clearly unsound? EDIT: Might I add that a lot of the drugs used to help people with such diseases have bad side effects, which can also affect a child.

Unless she was a single mother with no family whatsoever, then i think it's absolutely fine. A person who has the mental illnesses you talk about is not _constantly_ under the influence of that illness, and if they are they would not be free in society.

As for the side effects on the child, i highly doubt the doctors treat pregnant mothers with those drugs. And after the child is born i don't see how the drug would have a side effect on them, as i'm pretty sure breast feeding is not recommended either.

Very few people should be allowed to have children....forget whether they are physically or mentally challenged.

If any people decide to have kids who are not capable of providing care for their offsprings, the society shouldn't be burdened to end up taking care of them.

It's a gross negligence and I don't think the society should pay for other people's mistakes.

Look towards relatives or charities to provide support, but not the society. I'm not saying mentally handicapped people shouldn't have kids, but they shouldn't expect the society to take care of their mistakes.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa In the end, my concern is more for the child, not so much the parent.

Funny how almost all of the most flagrant human rights violations are committed in the name of the children. Why don't you join the anti-porn crusaders on the Religious Right?

You need to learn, little one, that life isn't always fair, to adults or to children. It's not always possible to help one man, woman or child without hurting dozens or hundreds or even thousands of others. If we can salvage just one life, it's NOT worth it, not if it will ruin or significantly lower the quality of several others.

We'd all like to live in a perfect ideal world where nobody gets hurt, but this is reality we're dealing with and the whole idea of constitutional rights is that there is NO fair trade for freedom.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa Alright, I understand where you are coming from, and like I said, I am on the fence when it comes to this. However, I do not think it fair to leave a helpless child with someone who is unsound, without any other option. A lot of the time, the kids don't even realize that "mommy" or "daddy" is any different, and they develop some very hindering attributes to their personalities. Once they find out, it can also be a very damaging experience. In the end, my concern is more for the child, not so much the parent.

isnt the whol gay marriage debate against defining what is and is not a family based on traditional mindsets?

Who are we to judge what a capable family is and who can and cannot properly love a child? Gay people are "different" from most of society.

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