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-- Harper wants a reduction in the GST (and why reducing the GST is not a good idea)
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Originally posted by MarkT funny side note, regardless of your take on whether or not this is a good idea (and I don't think it is): the Liberals are criticized for now spending the money that they "took" from us during the surplus years and are slammed by critics. the Conservatives will reduce the rate of a tax which THEY implemented in the first place, and it's a "good idea"? the double standards never stop, eh Jay?

Well, I suppose you can play with semantics and claim that the Conservatives of today isn't quite the Progressive Conservatives of Mulroney.

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btw...this is going to reward those who consume the most...i.e. the wealthy. If people don't have money to spend in the first place, how beneficial is reducing tax on stuff they can't afford in the first place such a benefit? Aren't cuts to income tax for low to middle income earners more beneficial (and cost the gov't less)?

And what about the morals of punishing those who earn more with higher taxes?

Re: Harper wants a reduction in the GST (and why reducing the GST is not a good idea)

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Originally posted by rabbitjoker Steve Harper is proposing to immediately reduce the GST by 1% (to 6%) and by another 1% as soon as possible (to 5%).

This will NEVER happen.
Obvious 100%, if not 1000% LIE

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Originally posted by MarkT btw...this is going to reward those who consume the most...i.e. the wealthy. If people don't have money to spend in the first place, how beneficial is reducing tax on stuff they can't afford in the first place such a benefit? Aren't cuts to income tax for low to middle income earners more beneficial (and cost the gov't less)?

That depends on what economic theories you subscribe to. Many economists believe that because the lower income earners are more numerous tax reductions should be given to them first in order to reach the most people. The thinking follows that they will then use that extra money to purchase goods and services thus stimulating the economy. The competing theory is that the rich are more likely to use tax savings to invest in the economy either through business ventures or equity markets. The theory follows that this investment will generate jobs which will produce more income for lower income persons stimulating economic growth.

Both theories are viable, however, both overlook some important points. The first assumes that the poor will spend immediately, however, this is not necessarally true. The latter assumes that the wealthy will invest their tax savings in the domestic economy, which is also not necessarally true. In truth any tax cut helps to stimulate the economy, however, that stimulation usually falls well short of that provided by strategic government spending (Keansian economics), unfortunately we do not practice that in Canada.

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Originally posted by EvilTree And what about the morals of punishing those who earn more with higher taxes?

Some call that a punishment, however, it is more acurately described as part of the social contract that each citizen has with the state. Because we want to live here we accept progressive income tax as part of the cost to do so. Should you wish to escape progressive income tax there are many countries that do not have such a system.

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Originally posted by malek not only it helps the lower income bracket, but also a healthier way of life.

more social engineering... great just what we need!

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Originally posted by Jayx1 PS: im willing to bet if the Liberals proposed this it would be a "brilliant" idea.

haha o would it ever, paul martin smiling on the front page of the star with bold letters im sure.

Its a fact americans dont like it here cause of all the tax, an unseen 15% is quite a shock to people who aren't used to seeing/paying it. With the dollar as close to the us dollar as it is now, factor in our tax, is it really worth it for americans to shop here?? not likely. Besides that how many people take shopping trips to the states or shop online? I rarely buy anything in canada anymore, all from ebay/online and from the us, because its just that much cheaper without the tax(if you can get around customs). And im sure as online shopping becomes bigger, more and more canadians will be buying abroad. Im not an economist so im not really sure how much this will increase spending in our own country to stimiluate the economy, if at all.

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Originally posted by MarkT funny side note, regardless of your take on whether or not this is a good idea (and I don't think it is): the Liberals are criticized for now spending the money that they "took" from us during the surplus years and are slammed by critics. the Conservatives will reduce the rate of a tax which THEY implemented in the first place, and it's a "good idea"? the double standards never stop, eh Jay? btw...this is going to reward those who consume the most...i.e. the wealthy. If people don't have money to spend in the first place, how beneficial is reducing tax on stuff they can't afford in the first place such a benefit? Aren't cuts to income tax for low to middle income earners more beneficial (and cost the gov't less)?

*THEY* did not implement that tax. The party that did this no longer exists.

And yes you are correct about double standards. The PCs were damned when they put in the GST and the Conservatives are damned when they want to reduce it. But hey everyone thought it was a great idea when the Liberals promised to scrap it in their red book promises of 1993. Of course Liberals being Liberals they broke that promise. What else is new?

Re: Re: Harper wants a reduction in the GST (and why reducing the GST is not a good idea)

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Originally posted by TheVrk This will NEVER happen. Obvious 100%, if not 1000% LIE

You seem to be confusing conservatives with liberals.

Liberals seem to be the proven liars.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 *THEY* did not implement that tax. The party that did this no longer exists.

How is it that the Conservatives claim to be the party of Macdonald when it suits them to have historical ties to past right wing parties but they are a completely new party whenever someone tries to link them to the failings of the former parties that "merged" to form the new Conservatives. You can't have it both ways.

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Originally posted by malek RJ, you have some very good points. Instead of lowering the GST on everything and encouraging hyper-consumption. It should be removed on some vital products that people need on a daily basis, while keeping the GST intact on the rest. Example: unprocessed fruits and vegetables, milk, baby care products, raw meat, heck even bread what do you guys think of that?

We do not pay taxes on things like veggies, fruits, raw meat, or bread. Baby products, I have no idea about, since I have never bought them. I am suprised nobody already mentioned this, or I just didnt see it.

I thought you were on to something, until i remembered that we do not pay taxes on raw food items, and I have the grocery bills in front of me to prove it.

For the overall agrument, I agree that lowering a consumption tax will not promote saving at home. When people save in such small amounts, they rare think of what they can do with that $3 they just saved on their shopping trip.

An income tax cut, by the same amount, will allow people to see the bigger picture, and a larger amount in the bank. To help promote the idea, I also think, it should be given back at the end of the year, when you file your taxes, as a rebate, instead of lower tax on each pay cheque. Again for the same reason, as I outlined above.

Canadians truly do need help saving, becasue so many of us are in debt(including me!). I know, I am prety good with my money, but saving would be a lot easier, if I got a lump sum, instead of a few cents here and there.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard How is it that the Conservatives claim to be the party of Macdonald when it suits them to have historical ties to past right wing parties but they are a completely new party whenever someone tries to link them to the failings of the former parties that "merged" to form the new Conservatives. You can't have it both ways.

I personally do not consider them to be the old PC party. That party paid it's dues for arrogance and corruption and was forced to disband. Id like to see the same thing happen to the Liberals.

Many Liberals from that era are still around and running for reelection . Not that many conservatives can say the same. Time for fresh blood.

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Originally posted by malek RJ, you have some very good points. Instead of lowering the GST on everything and encouraging hyper-consumption. It should be removed on some vital products that people need on a daily basis, while keeping the GST intact on the rest. Example: unprocessed fruits and vegetables, milk, baby care products, raw meat, heck even bread what do you guys think of that?

While I do agree in theory, there are many problems with it in reality.

First of all, it is as Jay pointed out, a great way by the government to tell us how to live our lives. But more importantly, there are always ways of fooling such a system, and it would majorly screw up the system. Also, it's really hard to define what should be exempt from sales taxes, so it usually ends up being the wrong things. It would also increase the amount of bureaucracy, in an already bloated and cost-ineffective tax system.

Flat tax systems have proved to be the best in most countries, and should really be applied to income taxes as well...

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Originally posted by Orko We do not pay taxes on things like veggies, fruits, raw meat, or bread. Baby products, I have no idea about, since I have never bought them. I am suprised nobody already mentioned this, or I just didnt see it. I thought you were on to something, until i remembered that we do not pay taxes on raw food items, and I have the grocery bills in front of me to prove it. For the overall agrument, I agree that lowering a consumption tax will not promote saving at home. When people save in such small amounts, they rare think of what they can do with that $3 they just saved on their shopping trip. An income tax cut, by the same amount, will allow people to see the bigger picture, and a larger amount in the bank. To help promote the idea, I also think, it should be given back at the end of the year, when you file your taxes, as a rebate, instead of lower tax on each pay cheque. Again for the same reason, as I outlined above. Canadians truly do need help saving, becasue so many of us are in debt(including me!). I know, I am prety good with my money, but saving would be a lot easier, if I got a lump sum, instead of a few cents here and there.

Again, i dont need the government to force me to save. If we are dumb enough not to save we can pay the consequences ourselves.

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Originally posted by Orko An income tax cut, by the same amount, will allow people to see the bigger picture, and a larger amount in the bank. To help promote the idea, I also think, it should be given back at the end of the year, when you file your taxes, as a rebate, instead of lower tax on each pay cheque. Again for the same reason, as I outlined above.

You can't cut tax rates and then return the savings in a lump sum rather then apportion it over the period in which the income is earned.... if the government tried to do so they would get slaughtered by people demanding interest. You'd have to work it out as some type of refundable tax credit and I'm not sure how you could make a universal refundable credit work. Opposition would simply view this as a way to increase government cash flow so that they can earn interest off the investment of the money.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 I personally do not consider them to be the old PC party.

you may not but they do (at least when it suits them). They bill themselves as the PC party in the east and the Reform party in the west just under a new name. If they are trying to ally themselves with their former selves then surely they can also be held accountable for the actions of their former selves. That said, I personally think that elections should not be based on the past but on the future (keeping in mind, however, that past experience can be but is not always an indicator of future performance).

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Originally posted by malek RJ, you have some very good points. Instead of lowering the GST on everything and encouraging hyper-consumption. It should be removed on some vital products that people need on a daily basis, while keeping the GST intact on the rest. Example: unprocessed fruits and vegetables, milk, baby care products, raw meat, heck even bread what do you guys think of that?

Ideally we should not pay PST or GST on anything that is a basic necessity of life (food clothing shelter). If you eliminate the PST and GST from those items and keep them intact for all other items then I would be a happy camper.

Like I have said before....I have no problem in paying taxes so I don't have to pay for certain services that I use everyday and don't pay for at that time. There are many things that I pay taxes for that I never use and that is fine because if there was no taxes for items then the cost for things like snow removal would be a lot higher.

damn i must've been high on shish taouk because you're right, raw food isn't taxed.............

how about books, baby care products, gym subsrciption, ...

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Originally posted by malek damn i must've been high on shish taouk because you're right, raw food isn't taxed............. how about books, baby care products, gym subsrciption, ...

How about interest on your mortgage being tax deductible..... I'd be all for that!

Re: Harper wants a reduction in the GST (and why reducing the GST is not a good idea)

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Originally posted by rabbitjoker Steve Harper is proposing to immediately reduce the GST by 1% (to 6%) and by another 1% as soon as possible (to 5%). As a total fiscal conservative: Harper's proposal is not what Canada needs. Consumption tax is a fiscally conservative concept. Low income tax is a fiscally conservative concept. Prudent budgeting is a fiscally conservative concept. Savings and paying down debt is a fiscally conservative concept. Reducing the GST supports none of the above foundations of fiscal conservatism. 1) GST is a consumption tax - and is paid by all at point of consumption. The amount you pay is based on the amount of products or services you consume. Everybody pays the same amount regardless of income, status, patronage, etc. 2) Lowering GST will not increase personal savings or reduce personal debt. Canadian's currently do not save. Reduction of income tax increases after tax "take-home dollars" and has been proven to increase savings rates and reduce debt rates. 3) Lowering GST will increase inflation. Inflation risks are very real. Canada's biggest challenge from an economic perspective moving forward is inflation - the Bank of Canada can only increase the interest rate so much (until our dollar goes so high that we further loose our competitive advantage for exports). Lowering the GST will encourage increased consumer spending (and increased inflation). Harper's move does not make sense to fiscal conservatives (nor economists). For the average family a 1% reduction in GST will save $400 / year. Goodale's income tax reductions will offer $500 / year savings. Goodale's approach (in this respect) appears to be more fiscally conservative than Harper's.

The CPC will also unveil personal and corporate income tax cuts soon. I suggest you close this thread until then so there can be a balanced debate.

books, now THERE's a good idea.

Re: Re: Harper wants a reduction in the GST (and why reducing the GST is not a good i

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf The CPC will also unveil personal and corporate income tax cuts soon. I suggest you close this thread until then so there can be a balanced debate.

That's a really good idea, kind of like how you would close all your Liberal scandal threads before the Gomery report came out.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard How about interest on your mortgage being tax deductible..... I'd be all for that!

Interest is already deductible as an expense on investments (including mortgages).

Primary residence mortgage interest deductibility only leads to people over-extending themselves. Massive consumer debt (including mortgages) is a burden on the economy. I suggest you read more into this and you will quickly see that on the surface it appears to make sense, but in practice it is very dangerous.

Re: Re: Re: Harper wants a reduction in the GST (and why reducing the GST is not a good i

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Originally posted by Matt That's a really good idea, kind of like how you would close all your Liberal scandal threads before the Gomery report came out.

Shiat, good point!

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Originally posted by rabbitjoker Interest is already deductible as an expense on investments (including mortgages). Primary residence mortgage interest deductibility only leads to people over-extending themselves. Massive consumer debt (including mortgages) is a burden on the economy. I suggest you read more into this and you will quickly see that on the surface it appears to make sense, but in practice it is very dangerous.

True, however, I have not overextended myself and I'm being selfish at the moment.

intrests on the mortgage of the house you live in is tax deductible??!?! oMGBBQ

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