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-- Countdown to Williams getting "Tookinated"
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Renegade;

It's very easy to understand how Libertariansim fits in with the death penalty for me; As I stated before, let the families decide the sentence...and let them even carry out the punishment of death, if that is to be the sentence.

But as has already been very well stated here, the government derives their "moral authority" via the common voter. We elect officials who create laws that we want via that majority. We have determined that we have the moral authority (in this state at least) to administer death. I don't know why you have a problem with this. In fact, I beleive we have a DUTY to administer these sentences for murder in order to keep us safer and to give proper justice to the victims, who are freakin dead after all!

The death penalty is a deterrent, a BIG deterrent to commiting murder. The only reason it's not MORE effective is because of our protracted and outragiously un-fair legal system, which HEAVILY favors these damn criminals to a fault, giving them the very real possibility that they won't EVER have to truly face the death penalty, even if they are initially sentenced to it. What we need is to end these appeals and speed up the executions! I guarantee that will have an affect.

There will always be some people that it won't affect, this is true, but by NOT "stepping down to their level", we open the door on the innocent people out there whom these scumbags only see as targets all the more by being weak on punishment.

You can't fix these people, so what's the point in arguing about the "moral authority" to kill them, when they were never part of that "moral majority" to begin with? (no Jerry Falwell references intended)

On another note/issue altogether, I was listening to Air America yesterday and my favorite ****slapper was condemning the death penalty while praising abortion. I'm sorry, I just don't understand how this point-of-view can work when you are willing to do any and everything to keep a guilty murderer alive, yet in the same breath, they will fight tooth and nail to make sure that an innocent baby cannot ever have a chance to live.

Not to detract from the current dialogue. Continue.

may i be the first to welcome donnie back, i for one have missed your far-right ramblings buddy. hey, did you ever notice the post-katrina looting & heinous crime-commiting welfare recipients were a figment of the media's imagination? way to go mr \"im not educated by CNN\"

anyways, onto the subject at hand.

all moral issues aside, its ludicrous to have the \"ultimate\" perfect punishment when the justice system is anything but. how you can argue that its worth it to execute innocent people because in that execution 'net' you also get the guilty is beyond me.

whomever made the comment above re paying taxes to keep someone in prison obviously missed the recent discussion on how its far far more expensive to keep someone on death row.

donnie, as per usual, please show me some evidence that the death sentence is a deterrant in the US. cheers.

you can talk about the 'scum' murderers & rapists all you like, in an emotional argument that can be quite compelling. however, how you can then ignore the innocent people the state murders on the flipside of that argument is beyond me.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka The government has a monopoly on the use of force. Perhaps the state derives the authority from we, the people, who have entrusted the state with that duty.

someone mentioned this the other day in the Oz forums and i still dont get the connection. the monopoly of violence is related to the police & the armed forces, and is a necessary part of the modern state to maintain stability & is used only in extreme situations. the monopoly of violence concept does not stretch to include execution of 'non-combatants' that are already at the mercy of the state.

poor poor tookie...so innocent. never started the crips or participated in any sort of violence

meh he cant hurt anyone in prison...

he shouldve been allowed to live there

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Originally posted by Lepanto poor poor tookie...so innocent. never started the crips or participated in any sort of violence

another value-less post by you, congratulations.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN whomever made the comment above re paying taxes to keep someone in prison obviously missed the recent discussion on how its far far more expensive to keep someone on death row.

I was one of those people, and it was a pretty unconvincing discussion. Guess what. Tomorrow, it will cost nothing more to support Tookie Tookaroo His Tookness because he's no longer a burden on society. If he had received the good fortune of sitting in jail for just one more day, it would've cost more money to feed him lunch and let him take a big Tookie in his prison cell. +1 for me.

And now all of the media focus is on Tookie Tookie Timbo and what a tragic hero he suddenly is. Christ, this guy was no hero. If he truly changed on the inside, then good for him, at least he was at peace with himself before he died.

quote:

someone mentioned this the other day in the Oz forums and i still dont get the connection. the monopoly of violence is related to the police & the armed forces, and is a necessary part of the modern state to maintain stability & is used only in extreme situations. the monopoly of violence concept does not stretch to include execution of 'non-combatants' that are already at the mercy of the state.

The government can take whatever they please from you (including your taxes), at the point of a gun (metaphorically speaking to some extent). It doesn't just have to mean violence. And it means that government can do this without answering to anyone else. The Mafia is still under the jurisdiction of the government, when they get caught.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN may i be the first to welcome donnie back, i for one have missed your far-right ramblings buddy. hey, did you ever notice the post-katrina looting & heinous crime-commiting welfare recipients were a figment of the media's imagination? way to go mr \"im not educated by CNN\" anyways, onto the subject at hand. all moral issues aside, its ludicrous to have the \"ultimate\" perfect punishment when the justice system is anything but. how you can argue that its worth it to execute innocent people because in that execution 'net' you also get the guilty is beyond me. whomever made the comment above re paying taxes to keep someone in prison obviously missed the recent discussion on how its far far more expensive to keep someone on death row. donnie, as per usual, please show me some evidence that the death sentence is a deterrant in the US. cheers.

Pakistani Raisin!!

Hey dude, I missed you too! I was beginning to think the world was starting to make sense! Then I came back here and saw your posts, and well....

(And as a quick aside; The CNN welfare looters weren't real? Hmmm....great special effects we all saw on TV then...and all those personal accounts I read...LIARS! all of them! )

So back to the topic at hand;

As for our Justice system being far from perfect, I'd agree, but not because it runs amuck, easily and carelessly convicting the innocent (That phenomenon is SO rare, it's barely a blip on the screen). It is in fact quite the opposite. The system is inherently designed to favor the accused and bends over backwards to give them every benfit of the doubt. Endless appeals, burden of proof put on the Prosecuters (most of whom will not take a case unless it's a slam-dunk win, as many of them are elected and they want a 100% perfect track record so they can get re-elected), and sympathetic juries make it in to this long, drawn out and torturous process that ends up costing the system more than it should be allowed to. And many more people who SHOULD be in jail are getting off because the "evidence" isn't overwhelming, even though it is often quite well known who the guilty party is.

It has become a lot more perverse, this system of ours in the last 100 years. But not executing scumbags because it costs too much isn't the answer...lowering the cost! That's the answer. "Tookie" was one guilty piece of shit, and there are few who would believe otherwise.

As for the death penalty being a deterrent, it's like I said; It would be far more effective if it were carried out quicker once it's imposed. A red light at the intersection is enough to keep me from running it and risking a traffic ticket...and the death penalty is enough to keep me from wanting to throw Liberals to the Lions. So I'd say the laws are working on all levels. In all seriousness, I don't think you need a study for the obvious. Besides, it's also about justice for the victims, so it's not so simple.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka If he had received the good fortune of sitting in jail for just one more day, it would've cost more money to feed him lunch and let him take a big Tookie in his prison cell. +1 for me.

LMAO

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN another value-less post by you, congratulations.

followed by enough value-full posts, you're welcome

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Pakistani Raisin!!

awwww, you remember me

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco So back to the topic at hand; As for our Justice system being far from perfect, I'd agree, but not because it runs amuck, easily and carelessly convicting the innocent (That phenomenon is SO rare, it's barely a blip on the screen).

yes, id certainly agree. but its funny how youre willing to demonise all the bad people (and perhaps rightly so) yet the innocents you discard carelessly as 'blips'. you cant have an imperfect system enforcing punishments that cannot be retracted.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco As for the death penalty being a deterrent, it's like I said; It would be far more effective if it were carried out quicker once it's imposed. A red light at the intersection is enough to keep me from running it and risking a traffic ticket...and the death penalty is enough to keep me from wanting to throw Liberals to the Lions. So I'd say the laws are working on all levels. In all seriousness, I don't think you need a study for the obvious. Besides, it's also about justice for the victims, so it's not so simple.

nowhere in that paragraph is any proof buddy im gonna go looking for some stats on US crime rates. in any case, there are plenty of murders in your lovely country each year, and ill go out on a limb here and suggest youre unlikely to find significantly lower murder rates in states that have capital punishment.

do people not kill other people because theyre afraid of getting caught, or coz its not the right thing to do? do you really believe there are a bunch of wannabe-murderers out there who are callous and evil enough to kill someone yet dont carry out the crime becoz of the possible punishment? i dont find that argument even remotely convincing.

and i doubt your assertion that the time-frame for carrying out state-sponsored murder would act as more of a deterrant. indeed its almost certainly going to increase the number of 'blips' you dont seem to care about.

^^^Well, here's a good stat for you about INSTANT retribution;

Florida was one of the first states in this country to allow law-abiding citizens to get a permit to carry a concealed firearm on their person. One year later, violent crime in that state had dropped by about 6%.

Today, 2/3 of the states in this country have adopted "right to carry" laws, and have had almost indentical instant drops in violent crime...why? Because DEATH WAS A DETERRENT!

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN yes, id certainly agree. but its funny how youre willing to demonise all the bad people (and perhaps rightly so) yet the innocents you discard carelessly as 'blips'. you cant have an imperfect system enforcing punishments that cannot be retracted.

It's even funnier to me how Liberals want to live in a perfect world. It's not possible. Give up on the idea. And besides, these days, with DNA testing of evidence, I think it can even be argued that there are likely zero, or near zero death row inmates who don't deserve to be there.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco It's even funnier to me how Liberals want to live in a perfect world. It's not possible. Give up on the idea. And besides, these days, with DNA testing of evidence, I think it can even be argued that there are likely zero, or near zero death row inmates who don't deserve to be there.

they always find something to moan about, though.

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto they always find something to moan about, though.

oh yeah, coz ive never seen any whining from either of you two or your right-wing brothers in arms

i dont wanna live in a perfect world donny. what i do wanna do is prevent innocents convicted of crimes being executed. sorry if that makes me a hippy or something.

quote:

And besides, these days, with DNA testing of evidence, I think it can even be argued that there are likely zero, or near zero death row inmates who don't deserve to be there.

id love to have some of what youre smoking (if you have some to *share*, libertarian).

^^^No one ever talks about how many convictions were likely up-held as a result of DNA testing, but if it's anything like the number of newer cases that win convictions based solely or even partially on DNA evidence, then I'd have to say the DNA argument has by default, narrowed the playing field of the un-justly accused substantially...how could it be any other way?

And if I was a smoker Raisin, I'd share with you......as long as you didn't try to claim I wrongly accused you of Bogarting if you were in fact, Bogarting.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oh yeah, coz ive never seen any whining from either of you two or your right-wing brothers in arms

yeah since we're the ones who grumble on about everything the people in power do. who says we're right wing? or is that a synonum for a person who isn't filled with angst and a dinky brain?

hahaha. the left-right divide is a relative yardstick. youre both right-wing compared to me and donny is right-wing when compared to most things id say

^^^Am I? I think I am actually a target-specific extremist, lol...or as I used to say; "An equal opportunity offender...eventually I offend everyone's beliefs"...what I mean by that is;

1.) I believe in the right to bear arms, but I also believe that all drugs should be legalized in this country so as to lower gang violence (not to mention it's your individual right to do to your body as you please).

2.) I am an Athiest, but I believe that abortion is murder...but I also belive it is a very necessary evil (I'm not going to to get in to all these beliefs in this thread BTW, so as not to jack it more than it already is being jacked).

3.) I believe in less governmentand fewer taxes. But I also believe in a strong military...and pre-emptive strikes.

My list of contridictions goes on, but I think you'd find it hard to classify me as extreme in one direction or the other, truthfully.

hehe, i feel your pain

as far as im concerned, yes, the libertarian position is largely a right-wing position. doesnt make it bad, its just how it is. and generally, you seem to stick in the libertarian sector reasonably consistently (like with your irrational hatred of welfare recipients )

right-left is a bad label these days imo. but, if its one or the other....

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN hehe, i feel your pain ....

So we have common ground after-all, lol.

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