TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Chill Out Room
-- moral question for the cor
Pages (2): « 1 [2]

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue our very existence carries with it internal causes. [/b]

It's not really our choice to exist. I blame it on my parents.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue our brains motivate us based on unknown biological forces. [/b]

Let's not get too ethical here. Our brain works in conjunction with our spine in what is known as the central nervous system. Our brain sends and receives 'trillions' of electrical impulses per second that allow us to perform everyday functions. And technically the human brain is the fastest computer in the world. So I guess there is a known biological reason for this. In conclusion we must never let emotion cloud reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue I'm glad this didn't get ugly. A lot of times when I have little chats about religion or philosophy, I say something that a lot of people don't agree with and they get really personal and aggravated... I'm just spouting out what i've learned so far

I hate when that happens. You can never have an educated conversation with close minded people. And by close minded I mean people who aren't open to discuss anything that isn't tied to their opinion. It has be their way or no way at all and that really sucks because the conversation goes to hell after that.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider I'm afraid your utilitarian argument is flawed. You're making several assumptions. First, you're assuming that you know BTG's brother's utility. If a close friend/sibling stole $5 from me without telling me I would be offended even if they paid $10 back some time in the future. You know ... that whole jazz about principles/honesty/etc. Second of all, you're assuming that BTG's brother's ill will has no effect on BTG's utility. Despite the fact that BTG may feel like he is justified in paying more to compensate for his transgressions, he still might suffer negative utility as a result of the effect of his actions on his brother. As for "hard determinism" in the manner you describe it, that's such an intangible argument that it has almost no meaning. Regardless of how rich I am, it is quite likely that someone is always richer than I am. Does that "determine" that I will rob someone despite the fact that I am a billionaire? Is it "necessity" that I rob and steal until I become the richest person in the world? This philosophy can perpetuate ad nauseum in any situation.

lol i was waiting for a response from you

your utilitarian argument is a good point. i've got nothing to say there. (but you could, and I know this is far-fetched, say that you taking money from your brother to buy pot helps you and the drug dealer. which in turn helps the bigger drug dealer. which in turn helps the cartel. which in turn helps the thousands of mexicans working for the cartel. which in turn helps the families of the mexicans of the cartel. which in turn stimulates the mexican economy. which in turn aids in the growth of blah blah blah... it's speculation, of course, and it's not meant to be taken seriously, but it's a possibility nonetheless.)

as for the hard determinist argument,

first of all let me say that I am NOT a firm believer in hard determinism, like i said it just shit i've learned.

so according to determinism, you wouldn't neccessarily steal to become the richest person in the world- outside factors determined your action. It IS a possibility, though. That's the beauty of determinism- you can use any excuse you want to explain your action.

Maybe you do have an obsession to be the richest man alive. That obsession affects your action to steal. Maybe you get a kick out of robbing people blind. as long as there are causal factors that determine your action, you are not free.


let me pose a question...

Is there a difference between the man who throws himself out the window and the man who is thrown out the window?






edit- and sorry guys, my wireless network card is fucking up. DAMN

It's stealing unless you ask him, and I think it's even more wrong it's for weed.

pics or stfu.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue let me pose a question... Is there a difference between the man who throws himself out the window and the man who is thrown out the window?

I would say no. Because they both made choices that got them to the window regardless.

he's at work, thats why ican't ask him. but i do ask when i can, if that's any better ^_-

i hope your smoking bc bud and not mexican weed.

quote:

Originally posted by wienerschnitzel i also don't really understand this statement: 'do you believe in God? According to the bible, God has a plan for us- he knows what we're going to do before we do it, five minutes from now, five years from now. Therefore, we are pre-determined to be a certain way. SO... how can we be morally responsible for our actions, if they are pre-determined for us??' because if you are taking the christan route, jesus paid the price for our sins in the garden of gethsemane and by dying on the cross, so you could try and argue that we are destined to do everything we do in our lifetime, but at the same time, god gave mankind the gift of free agency, so BTG is free to make whatever choice he wants as long as he understands that he will eventually become accountable, i don't believe that god is allknowing, but i think BTG can make his choice based on free agency instead of pre-determinism. I don't know if that make sense, i am supposed to be sleeping, but i was watching soft-porn before i went to bed and i kept having stupid dreams about what lube is best and what not, it was getting really annoying.

wow... strange (the lube thing and all)

see, that's one of the problems I have with the bible. (I think that) God said that we have free will- we are free to make our own choices. But he also has our lives "planned." it's a contradiction.

also, when you think about it, if God really does have our lives "planned" as it states in the bible, why would he pre-determine some of us to heaven and some of us to hell?

why do you believe in God? (not at all meant to be put in an attacking tone)

quote:

Originally posted by stevieboy32808 It's not really our choice to exist. I blame it on my parents. Let's not get too ethical here. Our brain works in conjunction with our spine in what is known as the central nervous system. Our brain sends and receives 'trillions' of electrical impulses per second that allow us to perform everyday functions. And technically the human brain is the fastest computer in the world. So I guess there is a known biological reason for this. In conclusion we must never let emotion cloud reason.

I think what is meant about our existence carrying internal causes is exactly what you said- the cause being your parents having sex and popping you out. I think "internal" is used incorrectly (that was something i copied out of my notes )

I also think what is meant by "our brain motivates us based on unknown biological forces" is not meant by the literal sense of the nervous system and the actions of movement and language etc, but more or less about the basis of how we think- sure our brain tells our body what to do, but i think the "unknown biological forces" equate into conscious thought, maybe even a "soul" or something. we still don't know why and how we think... and what motivates us to act in a certain manner.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie I would say no. Because they both made choices that got them to the window regardless.

Excellent answer!

the only difference is that the man who is thrown out of the window is forced to do so by some force external to himself (the dude throwing him out)

the action of the man who throws himself out of the window is determined by internal forces (with remote external causes)


see guys? determinism is fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue wow... strange (the lube thing and all) see, that's one of the problems I have with the bible. (I think that) God said that we have free will- we are free to make our own choices. But he also has our lives "planned." it's a contradiction. also, when you think about it, if God really does have our lives "planned" as it states in the bible, why would he pre-determine some of us to heaven and some of us to hell? why do you believe in God? (not at all meant to be put in an attacking tone)

i'm not going to get into why i believe in god, i think that's a bit beyond the point. Maybe you are taking words in the bible too literally? Do you think that god really created the world in 7 days? Or do you assume that there were 24 hours in a day for god or maybe for god 1 day lasted 1 000 000 years in our time.

ZZZzzz...

I'm beat. Me goes off to bed.....Gnite everybody.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue Excellent answer! the only difference is that the man who is thrown out of the window is forced to do so by some force external to himself (the dude throwing him out) the action of the man who throws himself out of the window is determined by internal forces (with remote external causes) see guys? determinism is fun.

Determinism sounds a lot like Satanism.

quote:

Originally posted by wienerschnitzel i'm not going to get into why i believe in god, i think that's a bit beyond the point. Maybe you are taking words in the bible too literally? Do you think that god really created the world in 7 days? Or do you assume that there were 24 hours in a day for god or maybe for god 1 day lasted 1 000 000 years in our time.

hey, that's cool, i respect that.

the bible says God created the world in 7 days. No, it didn't determine how long a day was. Maybe days were 100000000 years, i dunno. that's God's call. The thing is, if you believe in God, it means that God can do ANYTHING. we can't even comprehend all the shit he can do. Shit, we can't even look at his true form without dying (examp. the burning bush).

Soooooo, maybe it did take 1000000 years because God commanded, "let 1 day = 10000000 years." technically, God created time. which, and i never thought about this until just now, would make the whole 7 day thing moot. Unless God determined what "time" was before he created the erf, how do we really know it took seven days? the whole seven days a week, 4 weeks a month, 12 months etc etc is a human notion. what does that tell you about God?

here's the point I was trying to get at.

Say there was no heaven or hell. there's just God. and he tells you to believe in him through the bible. If there is no hell, why believe in God? let me rephrase- if there is no consequence for NOT believing in God, why believe in him?

well perhaps it would be like believing in god because he's your good buddy and you like him, instead of being god fearing and obeying god because you're afraid to go to hell?

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Determinism sounds a lot like Satanism.

why? i'm not familiar with satanism

quote:

Originally posted by wienerschnitzel well perhaps it would be like believing in god because he's your good buddy and you like him, instead of being god fearing and obeying god because you're afraid to go to hell?

possibly, sure.. i don't see why not. all i'm saying is that's a huge problem for me with believing in God. you see so many people having these "near-death" experiences or... they're ex-crackhead's who lost their jobs or something... and then all of a sudden, BAM! they're christians. I think that's bullshit. It's like they use christianity as a crutch... "just in case" type shit. "just in case" i die tomorrow, I wanna make sure I don't rot in hell. but that's not really faith, now, is it?

another thing, this is called divine command theory- and forgive me if i'm starting to get incoherent... it's 3am and i just popped a couple oxycodones

Okay... where does morality come from? most christians say, God says what is good. God's commands are good.

soo....

God is good.
God's commands are good.

now swap out the definition of God's commands and you get this

God is what God commands.


think about that. It's called an "empty truism."

it means, if God commands what is good, then God could've commanded otherwise. For example, God says it is bad to torture babies. But if God said, "it's okay to torture babies" then what now? God's commands are now pointless, because it could've been otherwise.

OR... if God is good himself... then that means there are outside factors that determined whether God is good or not. Morality is independent of God.

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_Blue why? i'm not familiar with satanism

Because Satanism has a justification for everything. The outcome is that it eliminates wrong-doing. As in, nothing you do will ever *really* be bad....so go ahead and induldge in everything! In fact, you're ENTITLED to the right to do so!! SIN! SIN! SIN!


www.churchofsatan.com

edit:^^read especially the 9 Satanic sins and the 11 Satanic rules of Earth.

edit2: ah Hell, just read the whole theory/practice section.

It's been a long time since I've been to that site.

I believe in God cause I wiped on a motorcycle 7 1/2 years ago while doing 105MPH on the highway, while only wearing no helmet, a t-shirt, jeans & airwalk shoes that had the laces tucked & I got up after rolling over a 1/4 mile.


Plus all the pieces from my bike hit my buddys bike that was about 125 feet behind me & he didnt wipe, only ended up with scratched fairings & a cracked headlight. He didnt wipe & he was a shitty rider.

I didnt break a single bone, but had severe road rash, including missing palms, fingertips, parts of my chest, arms & legs with skin. But that mostly healed.



So thats why I believe in God.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Because Satanism has a justification for everything. The outcome is that it eliminates wrong-doing. As in, nothing you do will ever *really* be bad....so go ahead and induldge in everything! In fact, you're ENTITLED to the right to do so!! SIN! SIN! SIN! www.churchofsatan.com edit:^^read especially the 9 Satanic sins and the 11 Satanic rules of Earth.

i feel immoral for reading this... where the hell did you get that link? (if i end up converting to satanism, i'm blaming you)

quote:

9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

I gotta agree with this, though

quote:

5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

i think i'm getting the mating signal from you...




bedtime i think...

ehh, I'm the lost.. but srsly, if somebody took money out of my wallet without asking I'd throw him a beating. just saying

You know you're a crackhead when buying pot leaves behind a papertrail LMAO

btw, BTG you should hyperlink ur "sig"

I fucking hate philosophy. I have no idea why that pointless crap is obligatory. I'm going to be an economist or physicist, not a fucking weed smoking dick, poundering the question of whether an apple can think or not.

quote:

Originally posted by dbb I fucking hate philosophy. I have no idea why that pointless crap is obligatory. I'm going to be an economist or physicist, not a fucking weed smoking dick, poundering the question of whether an apple can think or not.

good for you, poindexter

I like to hear the apple scream as I bite into it.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.