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-- Musical preferance and IQ
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yah, i'm sure he'd cite the reason why he thinks IQ and trance might be related is that he thinks it's so minimal with no melodies and like two or three sounds in the entire track compared to the rest of dance music.

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Originally posted by Ishkur No they don't. Key changes and melodic drift create complex melodies. But none of that is found in trance, which generally only uses one key/melody which loops every 8-16 bars, 64 times. In other words: The melodic drift never evolves beyond a simplified, predictable pattern. That's not complexity, that is the musical equivalent of a Dick & Jane primer to english literature. See Dick Run. Run Dick run. Jane sees Dick run. You want complex harmonies and melodic key changes, go listen to classical music.

Funny that I generally don't like classical music so much because I find it too simplistic.

Yes key changes add complexity, but so do layers, and everything else that's in there. If you take a bunch of those basic 2x8 lego blocks and you build a city with it, it's still a complex work. Perhaps more complex than a single house built with those tiny and curvy blocks.

If all this music is stupid simple poppy dance music, then why all the hostility towards tiesto and corsten and the other superstar dj's? What's the big deal about enjoying pop music? We sure talk seriously about this stuff for it being a bunch of silly beats and loops. What difference does it make if its trance or house or prog if it is all silly 4/4 and loops music?

I've read so many of ishkur's parrots insist that all trance fans must be ignorant of better music or that listening to trance means a person is dumb, and I've heard the whole "trance takes itself too seriously" bit plenty of times as well, it all seems a bit hypocritical to me.

If you listen to that above and beyond show it is really easy to tell they dont take themselves seriously, that girl annoucer voice says stuff like "trance around the world, music, fun, and stupid comments!" and they are always giggling when they say stuff. To me it seems everybody needs to lighten up and just accept the fact that they found some pop music that they enjoy.

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No they don't. Key changes and melodic drift create complex melodies.

This is what I'm talking about. You have no idea what you're saying. You're talking about a dynamic melody: one that changes a lot, and frankly, that's not a sign of complexity unless you're a total simpleton. Really, it is hard to call any melody complex unless you include harmony, counterpoint, etc. Things that trance has employed in the past and continues to employ to this day.

This is because complexity involves multiple interweaving elements, simple or otherwise. This is why I asked you to compare Spikee to Take 5. Not only does Spikee have more simultaneous layers, but it explores the same amount of melodic themes, at least. Spikee is, by far, more complex.

so there are not artists that makes more "complex" and less repetitive in electronic music?

for example:
orbital
autechre
boards of canada
some bt's
vangelis
jmjarre
brian eno

excuse my ignorance...

I think the important thing is the feeling that a song can do emerge in our minds...
for example, u think a track is melancholic, other is euforic, other is more "dark"... isnot this a form of complexity?

Complex
1.
a. Consisting of interconnected or interwoven parts; composite.
b. Composed of two or more units: a complex carbohydrate.

2. Involved or intricate, as in structure; complicated.

Repetitivity isn't particularly important to complexity. Complexity means that up there ^^^. Something made up of many parts that fit together intricately. Thus, trance may not employ complex melodies but it is often a complex entity.

Well said Ishkur.

Trance music is NOT complex (well yeah, that depends on how you define complexity). And some people in this thread seem to think 'complex' equals 'good'. I, and probably many others, like EDM because of other reasons than complexity.

I produce trance and play classical music on the violin, and there's no question for me which of the two genres that is the more complex one.

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I produce trance and play classical music on the violin, and there's no question for me which of the two genres that is the more complex one.

There is no doubt in my mind that performing classical violin is more complex a procedure than performing trance (lets face it, live sequencing is much simpler than playing every note personally for 11 minutes straight), but just because it is more difficult for the performer does not make the piece inherently more complex for the listener. I know many people in this thread lump performer and listener together, but the fact is that the musical experience is very different for both parties.

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And some people in this thread seem to think 'complex' equals 'good'.

Tell me where someone directly says that. You are inferring a logical fallacy to aid your argument by working me into a semantic corner and I have no time for that. Stick to the topic, please.

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My beef was only with the OP who insisted that his loop-and-sample-based music was more sophisticated than other people's loop-and-sample-based music. Which is wrong, not to mention stupid.

Indeed, and I adressed that point in concurrence with your claims, I believe. I took issue entirely with the assertion that unconventional time or key signatures have anything to do with complexity.

oh, there is loads of complex electronic music, just that it isn't often dancable. You can get into things like compositional algorithms, novell approaches to synthesis, physical models, psychoacoustic tricks, or even literey type things like theatrical performances, symbolism, coded messages, etc if your looking for something "intelligent", but even your intelligent composers will tell you(some have said things like this to me) that pursuing such things is a kind of "penis envy"(he actually said that). Training yourself to hear some algorithm or appreciate some weird rythm and melody is just another pointless elitist dick measuring contest. Just like what you like and be who you are and you'll be much happier.

Layered sounds are just one of those silly elitists things, "ooooh I can do lotsa weighted sums on a bunch of sound waves, I'm so ubar smart, yarrrrrr!"

There is no shame in enjoying something simple, or something that is not a major challenge to perform. Even when you go to a jazz concert, the crowd claps during the simple parts and kinda sits there confused and silent when things are complicated. We love the pop music, it remains pop music regardless of the fact that clearchannel and MTV aren't whoring it.

Why not look back in history for a fun example of the futility in pursuing "intelligent" music. A good example is serialism, try and understand all the complexities of that stuff, then read about what John Cage and/or Ianis Xenakis did in response to that.

Music has no correlation to intelligence at all, intelligence is more closely related to things like genetics, curiosity and access to education.

l I find it hilarious he misspelled preference when talking about music and IQ. Sorry to be the spelling naxi but it's funny.

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Originally posted by weymouth l I find it hilarious he misspelled preference when talking about music and IQ. Sorry to be the spelling naxi but it's funny.

Oh and you misspelled "nazi", it's NAZI not "naxi" so now i'm being the spelling nazi..i mean naxi...

Re: Zombie0915,
I'm not trying to associate "intelligent" music (to be honest, I think that idea is fairly ambiguous, and as you said, dick waggery) with complex music. Intelligent music has to do with the words and meanings an artist tries to attach to the music, not unlike the name, progressive. Complexity, on the other hand, is something that is inherent in the music itself. It's true that many artists who consider themselves "intelligent" utilize complexity to such an end, but that shouldn't blind one to the producers that simply use it to make danceable music, for such people do exist.

And certainly there is no shame in simple stuff, but then I think I've already made it clear that the complexity in a piece of music and its "goodness" are not related.

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Originally posted by Spirit5 Oh and you misspelled "nazi", it's NAZI not "naxi" so now i'm being the spelling nazi..i mean naxi...

I didnt even notice I hit x instead of z, lol.

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Originally posted by thoughtlessjex And certainly there is no shame in simple stuff, but then I think I've already made it clear that the complexity in a piece of music and its "goodness" are not related.

Precisely. I was adressing what ish said about EDM supposedly being simple, but I've known alot of music that was incredibly complex and I really didn't like, as well as some really simple pieces that are some of my favorite.

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Originally posted by thoughtlessjex Intelligent music has to do with the words and meanings an artist tries to attach to the music, not unlike the name, progressive.

I find this idea annoying and interesting at the same time. So music in itself cannot be intelligent, but a musician can do things in attempt to assiciate his music with being intelligent. So you are considering "intelligent music" as a meme, rather than an adjective that actually describes some observable trait in the sound. I argue that the people who flock to stuff that treats intelligence like a buzzword are no more intelligent than your average trance fan, much in the same way the progressive flock is no more forward thinking. These types of things bother me because they are just gimmicks that musicians use, and no gimmick is inherently surperior to any other, yet they all spout on about the merits of their chosen gimmick like its the second(third?) coming of jesus, then people come to this site and parrot all that bullshit. So people make simple dancable music that they market with the word "intelligent". I am aware that these types exist, personally I would prefer that they used a different strategy though, say, describing the actual traits of their sound instead of spouting buzzwords, that is goofy .com bubble business bullshit. I guess if it were up to me, all the musical descriptions would be actual musical descriptions rather than buzzwords that artists of a particular style associate themselves with(I would even call trance by a different name for that very reason, but it is not my decision). Music carries no meaning(aside from vocals and enclosed program notes) in itself without cultural context, so such buzzword named genres are defined by their marketing and the culture surrounding them.

I wasn't actually directing any of those comments at you speficically jex, I realize you weren't the one saying that complexity = surperiority and were just trying to show how the underworld track was complex without containing the specific features ishkur named, and I agree, complexity can exist in a track that demonstrates some things that were not mentioned in his post.

So thoughtlessjex, words and meanings much like the ones found in BT - Fibonacci Sequence? would that qualify as intelligent?(most people I meet seem to think that song is stupid, but I enjoy it, heheh)

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Originally posted by thoughtlessjex There is no doubt in my mind that performing classical violin is more complex a procedure than performing trance

Of course. I wasn't referring to the performance part either, I meant the music itself.

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Tell me where someone directly says that. You are inferring a logical fallacy to aid your argument by working me into a semantic corner and I have no time for that. Stick to the topic, please.

Sorry to waste your valuable time.

Note the word "seem" in my post. I get the impression that people have that view. Especially when they feel the eager to prove their view on EDM as "complex". I didn't refer to you specifically if that's what you thought.

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So thoughtlessjex, words and meanings much like the ones found in BT - Fibonacci Sequence? would that qualify as intelligent?

I think it's a geek joke, really. So I wouldn't call it intelligent as much as I'd call it geeky, sort of like the sample used in Man With No Name - Teleport. Ish is at least right insofar as saying that EDM is often very silly. Personally, I'd say Fibonacci Sequence is one of those songs that's stupid, but doesn't take itself seriously, at least as far as the words are concerned, so one is free to enjoy it and laugh at the joke.

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Of course. I wasn't referring to the performance part either, I meant the music itself.

Would you care, then, to back up your sweeping statement with proof that all classical music is inherently more complex than trance?

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Note the word "seem" in my post. I get the impression that people have that view. Especially when they feel the eager to prove their view on EDM as "complex".

And note that I said "inferring." I know perfectly well that you were stating nothing as fact, I was simply pointing out that there was no reason for the comment you made.

I think personality has more to do with musical preference than IQ. but even then the relationship is very complex. I was gonna do some correlational research for a project for uni on personality traits vs musical tastes but there is ZERO research about personality or IQ vs msucial preference in psychology so i scraped it.

Call me a moron, but the people I know of that listen to Trance seem rather open-minded, mature and somewhat more intelligent, however those that listen to hip-hip/rap etc. generally have limited knowledge in comparison and tend to be very ignorant. I don't know, I'm not saying everyone's like that, it's just what I've witnessed.

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Originally posted by stealthman Call me a moron, but the people I know of that listen to Trance seem rather open-minded, mature and somewhat more intelligent, however those that listen to hip-hip/rap etc. generally have limited knowledge in comparison and tend to be very ignorant. I don't know, I'm not saying everyone's like that, it's just what I've witnessed.

Alot of trance people are very closed-minded towards rap and hip hop. But I see your point. However this is because trance isn't mainstream so you have to dig a bit to find it, which requires you to be open to begin with, it doesn't have anything to do with the actual music.

trance > IQ

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