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-- Philosophy of EDM music production
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Originally posted by Chronosis Eh. You have a suprisingly narrow view of trance. I was expecting more, based on your production values thread. It isn't written anywhere that trance has to be club music. In fact, there are lots of tracks without the DJ-friendly start/end beats. Those tracks are meant for people who like trance. Not to drunken teenage girls that just want a reason to shake their asses.

lol thats what rap music is for!

but seriously, im liking this thread so far.

i also like what Psy-T had to say. this is what makes EDM fun, IMO, always new sounds emerging. not just the same old instruments over and over.

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Originally posted by Psy-T seems like you neglect an important part of EDM production; synthesis - while other musicians need master their instrument, you need to create yours (unless you rely on the patch banks for your every need, in that case disregard this post as it doesn't apply to you at all).

Hm.. well, I tried to explain that concept to my wife and I'm using this as an example of reaction you'd get from an average person.

Her reaction: "gee honey, that's nice"

Me: "Do you realize that synthesizer is not meant to sound like a piano or violin and here - it sounds like a piano and violin... well, sort off. Do you realize how friggin difficult it was -what's involved, etc?"

She: "oh wow.. that's nice dear... Ok, have to run"

Again - this falls into the same realm as this: NOBODY, outside of synth programmers, UNDERSTANDS THE DIFFICULTY INVOLVED WITH CREATING A "WOW" TYPE OF PATCH. Nobody.

I had a patch on my virus Ti that literally sounded like someone was saying "T I" .. Now, to me - that's impressive as f*ck. Someone who has no idea what it takes to program a substractive or additive synth to do something that you've intended it to do is really meaningless. It's a sound. It sounds as good if it were a sample, a ROMpler patch, or synthesized effort.

So, you see the complexities involved? Try explaining the modulation routing through your synth's modulation matrix of your highly complex patch to an average person and see how fast they disappear or fall asleep.

"Ok, so we take LFO1 and route it to Channel Pressure. Then, LFO2 will be used for filter cut-off parameter, and LFO3 will change the waveform on OSC2 and Suboscilator. I will then add phaser effect to the patch and have it controlled by modulation wheel. Now, I'm going to run filter one through 24dB High-pass filter and filter 2 will be set to notch. See it's that easy beeing cheesy!"

Catch my drift?

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Originally posted by emc^2 Hm.. well, I tried to explain that concept to my wife and I'm using this as an example of reaction you'd get from an average person. Her reaction: "gee honey, that's nice" Me: "Do you realize that synthesizer is not meant to sound like a piano or violin and here - it sounds like a piano and violin... well, sort off. Do you realize how friggin difficult it was -what's involved, etc?" She: "oh wow.. that's nice dear... Ok, have to run" Again - this falls into the same realm as this: NOBODY, outside of synth programmers, UNDERSTANDS THE DIFFICULTY INVOLVED WITH CREATING A "WOW" TYPE OF PATCH. Nobody. I had a patch on my virus Ti that literally sounded like someone was saying "T I" .. Now, to me - that's impressive as f*ck. Someone who has no idea what it takes to program a substractive or additive synth to do something that you've intended it to do is really meaningless. It's a sound. It sounds as good if it were a sample, a ROMpler patch, or synthesized effort. So, you see the complexities involved? Try explaining the modulation routing through your synth's modulation matrix of your highly complex patch to an average person and see how fast they disappear or fall asleep. "Ok, so we take LFO1 and route it to Channel Pressure. Then, LFO2 will be used for filter cut-off parameter, and LFO3 will change the waveform on OSC2 and Suboscilator. I will then add phaser effect to the patch and have it controlled by modulation wheel. Now, I'm going to run filter one through 24dB High-pass filter and filter 2 will be set to notch. See it's that easy beeing cheesy!" Catch my drift?

show someone a video clip of a rock band, preferably focused on the guitar - at first sight, he will assume he can do the same, because he has no clue what it takes to reach that level of dexterity to play the guitar. give him a guitar, and leave him alone to try it for several minutes. when you come back he will have a new found esteem for that guitar player.

show someone a demonstration of a new synth - at first sight he will assume he can do the same, because he has no clue what it takes to reach that level of production knowledge to 'play' that synth. give him that synth (preferably with no patch bank), and leave him alone to try it for several minutes, fuck it, make it hours even. when you come back he will havea new found esteem for that synth programmer.

quote:

Originally posted by emc^2 Hm.. well, I tried to explain that concept to my wife and I'm using this as an example of reaction you'd get from an average person. Her reaction: "gee honey, that's nice" Me: "Do you realize that synthesizer is not meant to sound like a piano or violin and here - it sounds like a piano and violin... well, sort off. Do you realize how friggin difficult it was -what's involved, etc?" She: "oh wow.. that's nice dear... Ok, have to run" Again - this falls into the same realm as this: NOBODY, outside of synth programmers, UNDERSTANDS THE DIFFICULTY INVOLVED WITH CREATING A "WOW" TYPE OF PATCH. Nobody. I had a patch on my virus Ti that literally sounded like someone was saying "T I" .. Now, to me - that's impressive as f*ck. Someone who has no idea what it takes to program a substractive or additive synth to do something that you've intended it to do is really meaningless. It's a sound. It sounds as good if it were a sample, a ROMpler patch, or synthesized effort. So, you see the complexities involved? Try explaining the modulation routing through your synth's modulation matrix of your highly complex patch to an average person and see how fast they disappear or fall asleep. "Ok, so we take LFO1 and route it to Channel Pressure. Then, LFO2 will be used for filter cut-off parameter, and LFO3 will change the waveform on OSC2 and Suboscilator. I will then add phaser effect to the patch and have it controlled by modulation wheel. Now, I'm going to run filter one through 24dB High-pass filter and filter 2 will be set to notch. See it's that easy beeing cheesy!" Catch my drift?

Come on now, even I think technical talk is boring. At the end of the day, the only thing people care about is whether the tune is good or not. You can complain about people not caring about the complexity all you want, but if the tune itself isn't good they're simply not interested.

I don't really understand why people think electronic music is better than something else because it's "complex" and "hard to do". That's not what music is about. It's about awaking emotions in people.

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery I don't really understand why people think electronic music is better than something else because it's "complex" and "hard to do". That's not what music is about. It's about awaking emotions in people.

It's both actually... as BT put it - "Emotional Technology".

Sometimes I find sounds that dictate how the track should sound. It's like finding a new color or brush to paint your vision. Sure, if you suck as a painter - it doesn't matter how attractive the color is or how percise the brush stroke looks on canvas if the overall picture looks like a steaming pile of shit.

This is the most intelligent and interesting thread in a while. Being partial to classical even over EDM, I have many opinions about this.

Trance is the most complex form of popular music. Theory-wise, it is closer to classical or traditional European music than to rock (harmonic minor and aeolian with much polyphony being weapons of choice for many trance producers). Rhythmically, some trance is complex enough within the confines of a 4/4 beat that it should merit the interest of the same ethnomusicologists that study West African percussion.

As a caveat, I don't mean to say that all trance music is more complex than any other form of popular music. I mean to say that the instances of greatest complexity that occur in trance, from admittedly personal and therefore limited experience, exceed the complexity found in popular music. Obviously there are variants or subgenres of hip-hop or rock that reach high levels of musical complexity.

What is the difference between trance music and classical music? Well, I would argue that there are instances of complexity in trance, particularly progressive trance, that rival or outdo the great American composers Phillip Glass or Steve Reich (for reference, Reich was the man whose work was imitated by Thomas Newman for the American Beauty soundtrack.)

EDM across genres is demonstrative of a musical and cultural trend known as minimalism. It is repetitive on purpose. However, one needs to remember that such "respected" composers as Glass (although some might argue that Glass isn't particularly respected, he has had a profound impact on American academic music) and Reich have both written music as repetitive as any EDM. Repetition, then, is obviously not grounds to decry all EDM as primitive.

The latter brings me to a conclusion. EDM plays a role in Western society, and it is to serve as the backdrop to decadence. It is, as Nietzsche would say, Dionysian music. "Frivolous." Music that adolescents imbibe substances to while immersed in smoke and laser-drenched bedlam cannot, many would say, exist on the same level as the music of those academic composers whose concert halls fill with bourgeois patrons of high art.

To be fair, people will always value certain types of music as "fine" and certain as "those of the people", therefore crass. Nor are they always wrong. After all, trance and Europop meet somewhere, and most of us can agree that Europop can never garner the same respect as classical music. Nonetheless, the difference between minimalist orchestral composition and our "frivolous" trance music can be barely discernible. Listen to the opera "Einstein on the Beach" and you will have what I'm saying illuminated to you.

Is complexity the only way to garner respect as a musical genre? Should we even care? The answer is no on both accounts. I envision a future in which snythesized music is performed in the same halls as minimalist and postmodern orchestral music. This has even already begun. But should you, the producer or composer of EDM, even care? No. Make what sounds good. Make what will warrant your success with labels. The culture will catch up someday, and EDM will have its Mozart.

quote:

Originally posted by armanivespucci This is the most intelligent and interesting thread in a while. Being partial to classical even over EDM, I have many opinions about this. Trance is the most complex form of popular music. Theory-wise, it is closer to classical or traditional European music than to rock (harmonic minor and aeolian with much polyphony being weapons of choice for many trance producers). Rhythmically, some trance is complex enough within the confines of a 4/4 beat that it should merit the interest of the same ethnomusicologists that study West African percussion. As a caveat, I don't mean to say that all trance music is more complex than any other form of popular music. I mean to say that the instances of greatest complexity that occur in trance, from admittedly personal and therefore limited experience, exceed the complexity found in popular music. Obviously there are variants or subgenres of hip-hop or rock that reach high levels of musical complexity. What is the difference between trance music and classical music? Well, I would argue that there are instances of complexity in trance, particularly progressive trance, that rival or outdo the great American composers Phillip Glass or Steve Reich (for reference, Reich was the man whose work was imitated by Thomas Newman for the American Beauty soundtrack.) EDM across genres is demonstrative of a musical and cultural trend known as minimalism. It is repetitive on purpose. However, one needs to remember that such "respected" composers as Glass (although some might argue that Glass isn't particularly respected, he has had a profound impact on American academic music) and Reich have both written music as repetitive as any EDM. Repetition, then, is obviously not grounds to decry all EDM as primitive. The latter brings me to a conclusion. EDM plays a role in Western society, and it is to serve as the backdrop to decadence. It is, as Nietzsche would say, Dionysian music. "Frivolous." Music that adolescents imbibe substances to while immersed in smoke and laser-drenched bedlam cannot, many would say, exist on the same level as the music of those academic composers whose concert halls fill with bourgeois patrons of high art. To be fair, people will always value certain types of music as "fine" and certain as "those of the people", therefore crass. Nor are they always wrong. After all, trance and Europop meet somewhere, and most of us can agree that Europop can never garner the same respect as classical music. Nonetheless, the difference between minimalist orchestral composition and our "frivolous" trance music can be barely discernible. Listen to the opera "Einstein on the Beach" and you will have what I'm saying illuminated to you. Is complexity the only way to garner respect as a musical genre? Should we even care? The answer is no on both accounts. I envision a future in which snythesized music is performed in the same halls as minimalist and postmodern orchestral music. This has even already begun. But should you, the producer or composer of EDM, even care? No. Make what sounds good. Make what will warrant your success with labels. The culture will catch up someday, and EDM will have its Mozart.

Good read. Won't people start to argue trance is too comercial when the culture DOES catch up? (I hate this comment about any form of music as for a product to be comercial, it means it is for sale, and the more sales generated, the better for the artist in my opinion. It is just something people refer to in an attempt to downplay someones status).

As a brief follow-up, I forgot to mention that a great deal of trance, particularly of the booming-Dutch-hands-in-the-air variety, takes cues from film music, which is regarded by many as low art in the first place. I point this out to demonstrate the absurdity of many in "high art" circles. If minimalism in orchestral music can be respected, film music should have that capability. And yet, even mention of John Williams or Hans Zimmer would be enough to make many in "high art" circles cringe. Distinctions in art are often arbitrary and are not based on any quantifiable qualities in the art itself.

quote:

Originally posted by dj_palm anyone listened to deathmetal group Tool? THATS the most complex music iv ever heard. i cant count the rhytm and all elements comes inn as a suprpise. its freakin inzane, check out a sample clicka every now and then when i feel like an outsider this is just the perfect music to prove your feelings right. its just so damn sadistic and complex at same time.

I never considered "tool" as death meatal...

Though, I must say complexity has different dimensions. Music can be complex from structure or complex from performance standpoint.

You want to understand complexity? Rent movie "Stealth" - BT made a soundtrack for that movie. The movie iteslf sucks but the extras special on BT's approach with the soundtrack is AMAZING. That alone is worthy of a rent.

Speaking of EDM Mozart, I'd say that BT is definitely in my opinion the most brilliant producer in EDM. You may not like his music or style or commercialism but he is a trendsetter and warps the fuck out of sound like noone else can. In my eyes - he is Mozart, Bethoven, Bach, and Chaikovskiy - all rolled into 1.

quote:

Originally posted by dj_palm EDM already had its mozart, actualy many. liam howlett, moby, orbital, and more will come.

I am sure we can name many great musicians, but keep in mind that Mozart was a genious - he pioneered the sound and added structure to the music. Some even say he's too percise, tooo methodical, too predictable to be liked. Yet, his melodies, while being simple are some of the most complex performance pieces you'll ever encounter as a musician.

What impresses me to no end is HOW in the world composers of the time were able to compose such marvelous compositions with nothing more than a paper and a pencil.

Take Bethoven's Symphony #5 - HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU WRITE A SYMPHONY without computer and make it sooo goood!

I'm still stumped. That is why nothing that man can do today will surpass the sheer genious and mastery of the period. I hardly doubt there will be any EDM pieces that will be remembered nearly 400 years from now... Meanwhile, I bet that all the classic composers will live on for ages to come as a showcase of human mind and brilliance.

I think M.I.K.E. would be humbled to be mentioned in the same paragraph as Mozart, IMHO

Though, I understand what you are trying to say. As you've pointed out - melody should be the driving force for the track. Beat should be structured around it and perhaps varried (though you can't deviate much from 4/4 - or it won't be "dance floor worthy") ... and besides, ethere's nothing wrong with 4/4 signature. 90% of the music uses it - so, it's a natural beat. Our heart beats to 4/4 signature (unless you have an auretmia - e.g. irregular heart beat) - in that case, you are probably a jazz fan.


I keed I keed


anyway - yes, I do agree on many points. I think that today technology gets in the way of music. Whereas before, you could just take an instrument and perform, while scribbling down your ideas.

Of course, these guys did not have TV, internet, or other distractions to suck up most of their time. You woke up in the morning, ate your breakfast, went for a walk around town, breathed some fresh air, came back inspired to write music.

Today - you drive in traffic to work/school, stress out over everything, come home and spend hours troubleshooting cabling or audio routing, failing apps, and just plain bugs, and finnaly - you're able to record something. by then, the inspiration is gone, idea is lost, pft.. back to square 1.

tool are death metal LMAO wow. right. anyway, no they are not complex whatsoever and a rather easy to play by someone with decent skills, i can pull off damn near all of the bass and guitar.

timing wise, MuDvAyNe who trick out math metal with unorthodox rhythms are much harder to get the grasp of quiet alot.

and on top of that EDM is NOT classical music. NOT EVEN CLOSE. It's epochs away from even being considered 1/100th of Classical music.

quote:

Originally posted by dj_palm anyone listened to deathmetal group Tool? THATS the most complex music iv ever heard. i cant count the rhytm and all elements comes inn as a suprpise. its freakin inzane, check out a sample

Tool is of course the best band in the entrie world, no doubt And Danny Carey is one twisted insane drummer (try listening to Ticks and Leeches, he actually does the 7/4th beat in the beginning with one hand
Also, what the fuck is up with the last part of Lateralus, when the beat goes all FUBAR, I don't even know what the hell that is

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto tool are death metal LMAO wow. right. anyway, no they are not complex whatsoever and a rather easy to play by someone with decent skills, i can pull off damn near all of the bass and guitar.

I quadruple dare you to play Carey's drum solos!! If you can, I'll strip naked and bathe in lighter fluid and torch myself! It's very VERY hard to do! (I am a drummer, btw.) The guitar is usually simple, but Adam is a rhythm guitarist, and he doesn't like solos, and neither do I, that's the main reason I like Tool (I'm free of all those god damn 5 minute Iron-maiden-screeching guitar solos). It's just tight, overdriven hardcore! The bass is pretty complex on parts, check out the beginning of Schism, that is just insane finger tapping on a bass (must have some pretty strong fingers for that)

But back on topic, about EDM: Yes I hate the moments when I'm listening to my music and people come right up to me and say "that sucks! you should listen to real music... like Iron Maiden or sumthin'..." , and I have to resist choking them or beating them to death with their own hands
EDM producing is MUCH harder than just doing some power chords on a guitar and calling it a rock song, you really need a thorough understanding of all the instruments (that's the reason I started playing drums and guitar, just so that I could advance my producing skills for EDM!)

PS: Tool aren't really death metal or anything, but definately metal, alright..... And I hate Iron Maiden!

first off i will gladly send u samples of ME playing my own shit if you dare to listen i'm not in a cover band. second, no it's not hard to write if u have a sick drummer. thirdly, it's not them wanting to die, if you think so you haven't heard a lyric. ESPECIALLY on parabola where it's more like he has found more faith in other albums. it's dark and experimental, and no it's not metal either, if anything metal is a STYLE not a gengre, and tool do not play metal, they are influenced by mostly art psy prog and alternative rock movements. even 311 have some metal riffs.

quote:

Originally posted by dj_palm well i dont know much about those genres. lets call it rock then, its not so important to me what its called. and im not good at listening to lyrics but it just seems like sadistic texts, i dont know i dont care about that realy, its the music that moves me. and Tool is complex shit! send me some samples of whatever u like. i like to listen to stuff.

gimme ur email, what kinda stuff ya want?

This thread is interesting. Most new art forms never get respect when they're created. I think EDM will get the respect it deserves late in our lifetime.

I'm sick and tired of people sayin that making TEKCNO music is easy as pie. We in this board know how hard it is. Some of us have spent hours trying to make interesting sounds on our synths, only to end up being frustrated because it's hard. We know it's hard, but the whole world sees it as twisting knobs.

this philosophy is incomplete without MANBAG

You're just about the shittiest alt ever. You're not even trying.

dont worry about the manbag dude he is talking shit!

alt is like a fake person or duplicate isnt it?

For me it's never really a matter of how hard or easy something is to make but how good it sounds and what energy it conveys.
I think that is one of the dangers of our trade and a lot of us have fallen into the trap where we are more concerned with knowing how to make music that sounds like the pros in terms of technical quality and not always focused on the artistry.

Don't get me wrong, I have spent countless hours myself trying to get that polished pro sound and have improved my skills in terms of production quality and compositional structure a lot over the last three years on the forum.

But don't loose sight of what you are doing which is making people have a good time. If you just write for producers there is a chance that your music will become the equivalent of musical wanking so write for yourself and enjoy above all else (Hmm, still sounds like wanking he he).

I know people in bands and have played in them myself and to compare traditional methods of creating music to EDM is like comparing apples with oranges, both of them are fruits but not the same fruit.

The majority of people who encounter something that they don't understand will often talk it down.
But as Sting once said, "It takes a gentleman to see ignorance and smile".

Cheers
Nem

Check out Squarepusher's view on electronic music:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squarepusher

I recently purchased Go Plastic. Definitely some interesting sounds on there.

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