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Originally posted by Moral Hazard The unfortunate reality with a country such as Iran, driven by ideology, is that they may believe their destruction to be fair trade for the advancement of their ideological beliefs. Iran doesn't care about territory, they are driven by theology. People are willing to die for theology, and a theocratic country such as Iran could, conceivably, be willing to destroy itself for theology.

rofl...

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Originally posted by EvilTree I think you're wrong on this. As much as they want to chant 'Insh'allah' and throw themselves at the infidels with a bomb strapped on them (no offence to moderate muslims), these people are not stupid. I don't think these people are willing to sacrifice themselves to merely hurt US. Not to mention that the average Iranian have no desire to get themselves blown up because their politicians and generals did somethiing stupid to piss off US.

The average citizen does not have to have the desire... those in control of the weapon do. As this is a theocracy we're talking about its the clerics we need to be concerned with.

Your statement regarding the US is misguided as it is not the US they would be willing to sacrafice themselves for.... it's Isreal. Now, Isreal is a pretty small country with only a few densly populated areas.... it wouldn't take too many warheads to effectively take them out and allowing the Palistinians to recapture Palistine and with it the holy cites. Given the hatred between some sects of Islam and the Jews one would be completely misguided to ever think this is not a possibility.

BTW, suicide bombing is not an act of stupidity it is one of sacrafice, those strong in their faith can be very willing to sacrifice.

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Originally posted by evil_cookie rofl...

because it's repetative?

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard because it's repetative?

nope, because your perception on the topic is very shortsighted

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Originally posted by evil_cookie nope, because your perception on the topic is very shortsighted

Granted, Iran has other concerns particularly a desire to establishing themselves as the regional power, however, these are secondary concerns. Their primary drive is ideological and their secondary motivations are more means to an ideological end then anything else.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Granted, Iran has other concerns particularly a desire to establishing themselves as the regional power, however, these are secondary concerns. Their primary drive is ideological and their secondary motivations are more means to an ideological end then anything else.

I'm curious to know where this is coming from.Academic background? or...?

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Originally posted by evil_cookie I'm curious to know where this is coming from.Academic background? or...?

BA in Political Science, minor in Military History. I focused on international relations quite a bit.

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Originally posted by EvilTree Well, the threat of your country being turned into a parking lot if you ever use a nuke against another country is pretty good safe measure. And having a nuke will certainly give 'inferior' powers same clout as the 'superior' powers? Unless a nation can develop strong enough conventional military to project its power globally (and only nation that can effectively do that is US atm) it's pointless having a nuke, other than for propaganda and deterring other nation from invading yours. Even then, using nuke for self defence will probably turn the entire world against you. Unless a nation has economic power to back up its military power, it's pointless having a weapon that you'll mostly likely not use. (And bloody expensive too) Having a nuke doesn't give automatic economic advantages. (You can ask North Korea how that worked out for them)

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough earlier. I don't think it is actually an equalizer in terms of economics or even military power. However, it IS seen as a sign of "power" and it would probably fulfil their own perception of having gained status. Probably the same for North Korea. I agree with your response to Moral Hazard's post. I don't think they're all dumb enough to die for this 'ideology' they preach. It's only a myth perpetuated by a few suicide bombers and what propagandists would tell you on "our" side in order to continue "The Long War" as it has been dubbed recently. Preventing them from such technology will only make them resent "us" more.

Moral Hazard: MAD was exactly what I was referring to. I just didn't express it explicitly.

Any country who pledges the destruction or another country should not have to physical abililty to destroy it on a catastrophic level.

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Originally posted by Abercrombie Any country who pledges the destruction or another country should not have to physical abililty to destroy it on a catastrophic level.

Couldn't have said that better. While they were on great terms before the revolution, the modern Iranian government has said that they are intent on taking Israel out; that being said, it's quite obvious they should not be in posession of anything that might make that easier.

As for the suicide bombing comment.. I don't really want to run on that tangent, but I find it strange that you say that the people who are highly religious are the ones who go out and commit suicide bombings. Not long ago I remember there was an article about someone whose family was at risk because there was a threat to harm the family if one of them didn't go and bomb Israel. There was also a situation where a kid was really scared and was supposed to execute the bomb, but was found extremely scared and had no want to bomb anything at all. The fanaticism of it all is ridiculous, and I'm not saying this is directly connected to Iran (though it's a fact that they do help fund such things), but Iran definitely would become a major danger to Israel as well as other countries if they were to take the opportunity to develop nuclear weapons.

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Originally posted by drgoodvibe You know what I can't understand? Maybe someone can clarify.. North Korea confirms, that it has Nuclear Weapons, nuclear technology and so on. Yet Iran that still has a long way to go in order to produce nuclear weapons causes the international community to stir. Am I wrong, or hasn't North Korea been just as great a threat as Iran has to the international community? Am I wrong, or hasn't North Korea effectively extorted, money, oil, food and etc.. by leveraging it's nuclear power from the U.S and other countries? Am I wrong, or doesn't the international community seem a bit hypocritical by using diplomacy with North Korea and force with Iran?

Here's why:

hmm i think everyone's a little misguided about who these suicide bombers are. Iran is run by a Shia cleric system. Shia's in general (while i'm sure there may be a few cases) do not suicide bomb anyone. (this is because of their belief that killing an innocent person is like killing all of humanity.. and punishable by god... thus any kids that could die would be their responsibility)... That being said, we have the worst biased against this country... why?... because in the islamic revolution the Shah (who was an American agent) was taken out. Thus Americans lost their most stable leadership in the middle east where all the oil is. Now it doesnt take the sharpest knife in the drawer to realize that because of all of this... we dont really get the most accurate media coverage or even school education about these guys.
One thing i still dont really understand is why is everyone hung up on isreal when there are manyyyyy other countries in africa and other places who have wars and have thousands of people dying?... i see that the US sees them as "ally's"... although i'm not really sure what THEY would be contributing in that relationship...

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Originally posted by GQ_IRAQI i see that the US sees them as "ally's"... although i'm not really sure what THEY would be contributing in that relationship...

There is a larger Jewish polulation in the New York City area then in all of Isreal. The United States has the largest Jewish polulation in the world. In fitting with the stereotype, some within this group are very wealthy and powerful. Generally speaking, American Jews tend to have great empathy for Isreal and will not support anyone that does not support Isreal. Thus, not being friends with Isreal is bad politics in the US.

Additionally, Isreal is a friendly state in a location where the west does not have many friendly states. Therefore it is strategically necessary to maintain relations with Isreal.

There may also be some history coming into play here as Isreal was largely the creation of the western nations who were looking for a place to send displaced jews following WW2.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard In fitting with the stereotype, some within this group are very wealthy and powerful. Generally speaking, American Jews tend to have great empathy for Isreal and will not support anyone that does not support Isreal. Thus, not being friends with Isreal is bad politics in the US.

I disagree... The Masons and Illuminati have the most weight on the US government.

its tecmology.

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Originally posted by Abercrombie I disagree... The Masons and Illuminati have the most weight on the US government.

Sounds stupid? So do stereotypes.

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Originally posted by Abercrombie I disagree... The Masons and Illuminati have the most weight on the US government.

I was not joking nor am I any type of conspiracy theorist or anti-semit. One cannot overlook that there are a lot of jews in the US and they tend to be sympathetic to Isreal. With this being the case failing to support Isreal is a bad move for any US political party.

Say hello to my good buddy MIRV! He believes in peace through superior firepower.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I was not joking nor am I any type of conspiracy theorist or anti-semit. One cannot overlook that there are a lot of jews in the US and they tend to be sympathetic to Isreal. With this being the case failing to support Isreal is a bad move for any US political party.

That may be true, however it's far from the primary reason for all of it. Israel is quite far ahead in technology (just as an example), and there are some areas that Israelies have reached which other countries haven't dreamed of touching. Israel is currently creating the next generation Intel processors for example as they're the only ones with technology capable enough. Their tanks are also the most technlogically advanced (Look up the Merkavah), and their intelligence agency is perhaps not as resourceful as the CIA, but is up there in the ranks. Israel also has quite a powerful and well trained army compared to the size of the country.

Outside of technological and militaristic issues, economically, while they might not rely on eachother (though Israel is strongly influenced by American support), the two countries have trades going on regularly, and thus creates an enhancement for both economies. Israel also stands as the States' strongest connection to the Middle East, and is probably the least threatening (though it has the capabilities), compared to other Middle Eastern countries. It also goes without saying that were the U.S. in some sort of trouble, Israel would go out of its' way to help.

On the topic of Iran's government, I'm well aware the suicide bombings (majorly) don't come from there, but Iran does help fund a LARGE amount of money for the equipment and has no positive intentions with regards to Israel. Their plan (and it's been said publicly in the past) is to wipe them out entirely, and replace it with an Arab state, whether it be Palestine or otherwise. Also note that Iran's government has rejected assistance from Israel in the past when it was offered (Remember the earthquakes?) and continuously adds to the threat factor for Israel and the States if not any other additional countries.

Why not help countries in Western Africa or Asia? Because a large amount of them either aren't well developed or support the same cause as Iran for example. Islamic fanatics exist everywhere, but they hold great power in the West African countries and throughout the Middle East (excepting Israel). The fanaticism that the Islamic extremists present is not something the U.S. wants to represent; just look at the recent news, they stopped giving monetary amounts to Palestinian government because of the new leadership.

Just to make sure I haven't been misunderstood in my points, I'd like to make it clear that I hold nothing against Muslims or anyone who follows Islam, I respect the religion and have many friends who are of the faith. My problem is with the extremists and fanatics that terrorize the world and hide behind a mask they call religion.

america, the worlds most aggressive nation possess stockpiles upon, upon stockpiles of Nukes....that is all that I am concerned with at this point.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard The unfortunate reality with a country such as Iran, driven by ideology, is that they may believe their destruction to be fair trade for the advancement of their ideological beliefs. See, the cold war was about territory and people aren't willing to destroy the territory they already have in order to aquire more territory therefore the MAD theory works. Iran doesn't care about territory, they are driven by theology. People are willing to die for theology, and a theocratic country such as Iran could, conceivably, be willing to destroy itself for theology.

Even if you've had some education in these cases, I believe that you are wrong.
People in Iran have no reason and no intrest to go on a war. I can tell you that more than 75% won't go on a war. But it's the crazy guvernment that makes the world think Iran is a big threat and iranian people have dangerous ideologies.

Believe it or not that people in Iran has so much economic issues nowadays which has caused them to be not aware of Iran's international issues.
I was talking to my dad who lives in Iran,, i tell him that things are getting so much worse everyday and US is pushing the europe again iran, But he saied that back there people are not fully aware and think nothing's gonna happen!


It's really scary though,,if a war happens they'r gonna be so many deads and it won't last for decades.

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Originally posted by extacy_bomb I was talking to my dad who lives in Iran,, i tell him that things are getting so much worse everyday and US is pushing the europe again iran, But he saied that back there people are not fully aware and think nothing's gonna happen!

That's often the case when you don't have free-media. People are spoon fed as to what the government wants them to know.

Remember the last "free" vote in Iraq before the invasion? 100% support for Saddam is what every TV, radio and newspaper had as headlines.

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Originally posted by extacy_bomb Even if you've had some education in these cases, I believe that you are wrong. People in Iran have no reason and no intrest to go on a war. I can tell you that more than 75% won't go on a war. But it's the crazy guvernment that makes the world think Iran is a big threat and iranian people have dangerous ideologies. Believe it or not that people in Iran has so much economic issues nowadays which has caused them to be not aware of Iran's international issues. I was talking to my dad who lives in Iran,, i tell him that things are getting so much worse everyday and US is pushing the europe again iran, But he saied that back there people are not fully aware and think nothing's gonna happen! It's really scary though,,if a war happens they'r gonna be so many deads and it won't last for decades.

lol...you spelt government wrong..

i think that people in iran are definitely 'aware' of what's happening; they have access to the same information that we do (internet, satellite, etc).. i just don't think that they care very much... the u.s. cannot afford another war these days(economically at least)

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Originally posted by ChocolateTrance lol...you spelt government wrong..

lol
ya the weed lastnite was too strong.

I can barely think right now.

BUSH can suck my ass

bush has fucked up the middle-east
invaded a country with false evidence
occupied / tortured / killed + still does

+

invading Iran is no piece of cake
BUSH + the US & A have no balls to attack iran ahahhahahhahaha

I actually support the president of iran. Despite his appearance ... I don not agree with his totally crazy/stupid ideas but , nuclear energy is Irans right
+
If israel + the US have nukes ? why not Iran

FUCK BUSH

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