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-- FINALLY a softwood lumber deal!
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quote:

Originally posted by TO guy First off, how do you know I have nothing to do with the softwood lumber industry? Second, it would be OK for you to complain though, right? And third, the tarrifs shouldn't have been taken in the first place!! We should be getting more than the 5 billion!!!

I agree, we should have gotten all of it back. but its not going to happen.

So what is your position in relation to softwood then?

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT of all people, I'm amazed that you think it's acceptable that the U.S. essentially stole a *billion* dollars from us. That's a lot of money. we HAD a trade agreement...we HAVE a dispute resolution process...yet we had to renegotiate the deal because the U.S. didn't like it...and not even get back all of what was ILLEGALLY STOLEN from us. This is "diplomacy" or compromise to you? it's called cutting our loses and caving to the U.S. It arguably may have been the necessary thing to do at this point, but that doesn't make it "good".

Im not saying its good... im saying that its good that its resolved and that i think this is the best deal we are going to get. Its obvious bush is a reckless individual. So we either allow for this in our planning and dealings with him and work for the best we can get, or we go at him full throttle (like in the past) and come out with nothing.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 I agree, we should have gotten all of it back. but its not going to happen. So what is your position in relation to softwood then?

Some of those corps are clients.

quote:

Originally posted by TO guy Some of those corps are clients.

well from what ive been reading.. your clients are relieved and actually happy to get back what was considered lost money

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 well from what ive been reading.. your clients are relieved and actually happy to get back what was considered lost money

What have you been reading?

Thursdays Globe: "Ontario, Quebec and some Eastern Canada lumber companies ... have vowed to fight it"

quote:

Originally posted by TO guy What have you been reading? Thursdays Globe: "Ontario, Quebec and some Eastern Canada lumber companies ... have vowed to fight it"

ive read the globe, the sun, and the star...

yes some people arent happy but most seem to be.

Of course some people will fight it.. thats the canadian way. bitch till you get your way 100%

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 ive read the globe, the sun, and the star... yes some people arent happy but most seem to be. Of course some people will fight it.. thats the canadian way. bitch till you get your way 100%

hahahah, the Canadian way seems to be to cave into whatever the US wants!

It sounds to me that the US played a very good negotiating game here. They waited us out to gain a more favourable settlement and concessions that will grant them the protectionary measures they want dispite the free trade agreements they have signed. I guess it goes to show that if you're the economic power broker in a trad pact you really don't need to honour said pact when it acts against your interests. I believe this should be a lesson to all those intending to deal with the US.... they cannot be trusted, they do not do business fairly, and they do not respect international agreements. This should also serve as notice to all Canadians that our present government is willing to give away our soverignty in order to make friends and win votes. John Diefenbaker would be so proud of Harper.... way to back down to US Steve!

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Of course some people will fight it.. thats the canadian way. bitch till you get your way 100%

Interestingly, we had the stronger hand in these negotiations, we were in compliance with NAFTA, the US was not, the dispute mechanism was followed and a decision was made, we won, yet we backed down from collecting the award granted to us because we were afraid of pissing off the US..... sounds like our government simply gave up.

That happens in business all the time... a supplier will give discounts and favourable deals to their largest customers because the customers demand them.... eventually the supplier sufferes deminished profit makeing them more dependent on their large customers, who in turn (knowing the dependency) demand even more favourable deals..... eventually the supplier goes under or becomes a wholey owned subsiduary of the customer.

I suppose we've officially ushered in the new era of defering to the will of the US. We might as well pay them tribute and let them install a colonial govener.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I suppose we've officially ushered in the new era of defering to the will of the US. We might as well pay them tribute and let them install a colonial govener.

Oh man, if we get Jeb Bush, I'm gonna cry.

quote:

Originally posted by TO guy What have you been reading? Thursdays Globe: "Ontario, Quebec and some Eastern Canada lumber companies ... have vowed to fight it"

That report referred to an earlier draft of the deal. The deal that was actually reached later that day was quite different.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...60427/20060428/

quote:

The so-called framework worked out Tuesday almost collapsed after Ontario publicly rejected the deal as unfair to the province's lumber industry, and companies in Quebec and British Columbia denounced its terms. An amended package that improved Ontario and Quebec market shares and lessened a penalty seen as discriminatory against British Columbia was tabled Thursday morning.

quote:

Harper later announced that he received the support of British Columbia, Ontario and Quebec -- the top lumber producing provinces in the nation.

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Ontario's Natural Resources Minister David Ramsay, who voiced his fierce opposition to an earlier, leaked version of the deal, expressed optimism Thursday.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard we were in compliance with NAFTA, the US was not,

Wrong. The NAFTA panel ruled that Canada was illegally subsidizing lumber companies.

http://www.nafta-sec-alena.org/app/...%5Cua02030e.pdf

However, the U.S. also violated NAFTA by collecting duties (via the Byrd Amendment) in response to the illegal subsidy.

The issue was the amount of compensation due to U.S. companies, and the proper mechanism for distributing that compensation. That same NAFTA panel ruled that the U.S. tariff was too high.

In other words, the U.S. companies deserved compensation, but it's debatable whether $1 billion was the proper amount. Unless I see an econometric analysis to the contrary, this was the best deal we could have gotten.

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf Unless I see an econometric analysis to the contrary, this was the best deal we could have gotten.

Correction, we got the best deal we could have gotten right now. A better deal can always be had, especially when you have the upper hand in the dispute as we did.... it just takes time and will. Apparently we were lacking the latter.

I'm glad Harper's getting them to pay back some of the money, but aren't we still losing like 1/5 of it or something?

Don't be too hard on me, I don't know too much about politics

Re: Re: FINALLY a softwood lumber deal!

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT ^^^ exactly! the rationale seems to be that "any deal is better than no deal" and that's simply not true. x 100 if by "diplomacy" you mean "give up"...sure. Anyone can just concede to the other side...because that's exactly what Harper's gov't appears to have done. We didn't even get back all of the money that was ILLEGALY taken by the U.S....people think we should be celebrating getting a PORTION of OUR OWN MONEY back??? Concensus seems to be that the deal also heavily favours BC producers (and Quebec, to a lesser extent), while Ontario has had it's production capped at levels below the status quo, which will no doubt eventually mean lost jobs here. Thanks for standing up for all of Canada Mr. Harper...keep up the great work

agreed.....

the moment I heard the deal was struck - I was kinda glad - then sad and then mad.......

plus what "other shit" was discussed as part of why this deal was struck like this.....GOD ONLY KNOWS.....did Steve Harper sells Canada's soul for 4 Billon bucks.....only time will tell..

quote:

Originally posted by *~LiSa-LoO~* I'm glad Harper's getting them to pay back some of the money, but aren't we still losing like 1/5 of it or something? Don't be too hard on me, I don't know too much about politics

you are correct....however...it would be safe to assume that we would have never received all of what is owing.

Personally, I think Harper is trying to get on Bush's good side. Harper looks up to Bush and Harper will do anything to get approval from Bush.

quote:

Originally posted by ChemEnhanced you are correct....however...it would be safe to assume that we would have never received all of what is owing.

THat just blows my mind...it's like what's the point of even having laws if ppl who are "above the law" don't ahve to obey them?

quote:

Originally posted by *~LiSa-LoO~* THat just blows my mind...it's like what's the point of even having laws if ppl who are "above the law" don't ahve to obey them?

Yeah, it's unbelievable that Canada was able to get away with its illegal subsidies to Canadian companies for so long. Many American lumber workers, especially in northern states, lost their jobs as a result. It's unfortunate that the U.S. had to take unilateral (and itself illegal) action to help its lumber industry survive. $1 billion may not be the proper amount of compensation... then again, it just might be.

looks like this may not be over after all...

from today's Toronto Star:

quote:

Ont. lumber groups sue over softwood May 16, 2006. 04:38 PM CANADIAN PRESS Two Ontario lumber industry organizations are seeking legal action to force a final ruling under the North American Free Trade Agreement that Canadian lumber is not unfairly subsidized. The Ontario Lumber Manufacturers Association and the Ontario Forest Industries Association said Tuesday they are filing actions in the U.S. Court of International Trade and U.S. Court of Appeals in the District of Columbia challenging the suspension by the Canadian and American governments of NAFTA panel proceedings on the issue. "The two federal governments have conspired to prevent Canadian private industry from finalizing a decision of a NAFTA panel for which we fought for four long years," stated Jamie Lim, president of the Forest Industries Association. The panel found Canadian softwood lumber is not subsidized, and ``that decision should be final and recognized," Lim said. "The United States does not want it recognized and, regrettably, the government of Canada has gone along." David Milton, president of the lumber makers' association, added that the governments are violating their NAFTA obligations because legally "there is no such thing as the suspension of a proceeding in NAFTA." The organizations note that despite the softwood lumber trade agreement announced by the two governments April 27 � ending highly punitive U.S. tariffs if import limits and prices are maintained � the Canadian lumber industry must continue depositing about $40 million a month in estimated countervailing duties. The NAFTA panel called for an end to this, Lim and Milton stated, but the two governments "are trying to avoid this legal decision by preventing the extraordinary challenge, launched by the United States, from going forward." The legal action by the two Ontario groups in the Court of Appeals in Washington contends that if the governments are right in refusing to appoint judges to an extraordinary challenge committee, NAFTA itself is unconstitutional because it violates U.S. property due-process rights. The other suit in the Court of International Trade serves notice on Ottawa that the associations will be seeking to compel arbitration, and sues the United States for failing to proceed with the extraordinary challenge as, the associations say, is required by NAFTA and U.S. law. The Ontario groups say the United States has continued with lumber-related litigation despite the announced framework agreement. "As long as there is no signed and final agreement, there is no agreement," stated Milton, "and we must protect our rights as much as the Americans are protecting theirs." Ontario Natural Resources Minister David Ramsay said he's concerned that the legal action "might be a complicating factor" for a Canada-U.S. deal that was supposed to eliminate all outstanding litigation involving the dispute. "It's probably not something that is, I suppose, desirable to get a conclusion to this deal," Ramsay said. "Ontario still stands by the deal as it's been structured right now and we'd like to see it finalized," he added.

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