TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Production Studio
-- access virus help..unfat sounds..?
Pages (2): « 1 [2]
Ok you will have to visualise a graph.
Volume on the Y axis. Time on the X axis.
For the Amp attack envelope, the volume increases over time in a straight line. It is perfectly linear. Turning up the attack pot simply increases the time it takes for the volume to reach maximum.
When you modulate something you are basically making it increase/decrease/do something *over time*.
The decay works the same way but in reverse. Volume against Time. Linear downward slope.
There is only so much you can do with this 'linear fade in and out.' Pluck sounds for instance do not have a linear attack. It is very sudden - more like an inverse exponential attack and the decay is closer to exponential. It varies depending on the pluck sound but its definitely not linear.
In order to make the envelopes non linear you have to do a trick called recursive modulation. Basically, you set an amp envelope to modulate its own amp attack.
i.e. (Volume/Time)/Time
For the attack envelope the volume is increasing over time. For the decay envelope it is decreasing.
It is hard to visualise what this does to a graph but think about this example of recursion:
1! = 1
2! = 1 x 2 = 2
3! = 1 x 2 x 3 = 6 (or 2! x 3 = 6)
4! = 1 x 2 x 3 x 4 = 24 (or 3! x 4 = 24)
Can you see whats going on there? I am having trouble explaining how this would work as a graph without making things seem ridiculously complicated and I dont really want to start writing up recursive functions because thats really gay maths. And people come here to make music, not learn maths.
But with recursive modulation, values less than 1 result in concave graph shapes (In Howard Scarr's tutorial he calls this 'negative self modulation'). Recursive modulation with values greater than 1 result in convex graph shapes (again in Howard Scarr's tutorial he calls this 'positive self modulation'.
Using recursive modulation of envelopes can be used to literally change the slope of 'volume/time' on the amp envelope. This can be done with the filter envelope too but I find that even harder to explain.
The filter attack/decay envelopes are also linear'ish' by default btw.
Filter envelope = cutoff/time.
Recursively modulating the filter envelope = (cutoff/time)/time
The reason I find this fecking hard to explain is that the extent/speed (?) of the cutoff sweep is determined by the ENV amount and this will change the shape of the curve. ARGGGH. I hope you are getting closer to understanding this a bit better.
To get a visualisation of the Virus envelopes go here:
http://accessvirus.ashbysolutions.com/
Scroll down and compare it to the envelope of the Matrix 1000. Notice how the matrix attack envelope is slightly convex. You can mimic most classic analogue synth attack envelopes by positive self modulation of the Virus' amp attack envelope. However, some of the Oberheim ones - like the Matrix 1000 have really weird non linear attack envelopes, making them quite hard to clone.
Just take a look at it - you cant clone it *exactly* with recursive modulation. However, if you are totally obsessive about it, you could probably use an LFO shape or OSC waveform as a modulation envelope source and get closer to that kind of shape. But it would involve alot of trial and error, and to be honest, if you worked through that time instead, you could probably buy a Matrix 1000 at the end of it and save yourself the hassle.
Its easier to do this by ear if you have a reference sound you want to copy. After a while you dont even think about the math and just do it by ear. But it helps to understand whats going on so you know what direction you want to go in.
---------------------------------
About 'fatter' sounds. Fatter != more oscillators and more voices.
Some of the god damn hugest sounds ever made on a synthesizer consist of just 1 voice and 1 oscillator. Case in point - Roland TB-303 square wave bass. Absolutely *HUMONGOUS* sound. You can turn clubs inside out with a good clean square wave bass provided the amplitude is high enough.
The Minimoog is a 3 oscillator, 1 voice synth and it makes some of the most massive sounding leads and basses in existence.
More oscillators and more voices = potential for more harmonic complexity.
Amplitude + bass = bigger sounds.
The term fat probably comes from that wubbing kind of sound you get when you sweep an analogue oscillator with moderate to high resonance - as heard on trance classics like Binary Finary - 1998 with *that* Minimoog.
Oh yea, you can also clone the Minimoog's envelopes quite accurately using a Virus but it helps to have a visual plot of what it looks like. I think there are quite a few floating around on the internet for comparitive and cloning purposes. Failing that you could always ask a minimoog owner for a test tone...
EDIT: I made changes to that supersawish sound since theres yet more stuff I didnt like about it. Changes will be listed in a minute along with another sound clip of what it should sound like.
Heres the new clip:
[[ LINK REMOVED ]]
I will continue to modify this over the coming week or so, until it is spot on. Usually the patches I build from scratch take a few weeks until they start to really take shape and sound decent. This one is on the way there but theres still stuff thats wrong with it.
Went back to intervals instead of chords because the voice steal sounds shitty
Here are the changes I made from the previous patch posted in this thread. Make the following changes to turn it into this sound:
LFO 1 speed up to 88
LFO 2 speed down to 44
OSC 1 shape down to 64 (now its full on saw)
OSC 2 shape down to 64 (ditto)
Punch Intensity up to 127
Reverb EffectSend up to 63
Chorus Dir/Eff down to 19
Distortion Curve set to OFF
Analogue Boost Tune down to 23
Unison Detune up to 124
OSC 2 Detune up to 105
AmpRel up to 77 (I prefer the long release tail with the reverb. It was a mistake to leave the reverb high and cut the release down 
)
Filter configuration changed to SER 4
SUB OSC down to 0
ASSIGNS:
ASSIGN 2 Source (AmpEnv) is now set to modulate ChorusDly in Dst2. Amount = +63
VELOCITY:
Pulsewidth up to +24
Resonance1 = -35
Resonance2 = -64
You are ready to rock and roll.
BTW: you can turn this sound into practically any trance lead ever made. All the ones built on detuned saws anyway. You can totally break it down into any other sound too, but for plucked leads (ala PVD) lower the amp attack, decay and release times. Clear ASSIGN3 and set the FiltEnv to modulate its own attack and decay. Get rid of the second and third oscillator for the meantime and rebuild from a 1 oscillator sound with all the effects disabled. Fiddle from there.
okay wow, I completely get it now.. you just gave me goosebumps... really puts things in perspective. you really can make any type of sound if you think about it with the virus ... that is nutty. I think that was as clear an consise as it could have been.
Those are just the envelopes. You can do some mind bending recursive modulation of LFOS too. For creating interesting timbres or emulating oscillators from other synths you can mix oscillator waveforms within themselves or with other oscillators to compensate for the differences. All told you can emulate/clone/build pretty much any analogue type sound using this thing. If it allowed you to import user waveforms and allowed you to change portmento behaviour it would be one step closer to being every analogue/analogue modelled synth in one box. The downside would be that the learning curve would get steeper. Its already pretty steep at the moment.
Once you get how it works though, this synth will expand your mind in ways in ways that Mr. Fucking Miyagi never could with his karate 'Wax on. Wax Off' bullshit.
| quote: |
| you really can make any type of sound if you think about it with the virus |
| quote: |
| you really can make any type of sound if you think about it with the virus |
Eugh, you can get close to an SH-101 rezo bass on a Virus. You cant really do a 303 square wave, not without a hell load of post processing and even then it wont sound the real deal because its not like any square wave I have ever heard.
Thats just nitpicking though. No synth can replicate the 303 Square wave exactly, not even analogue 303 rackmount kits. The Virus is very capable of replicating the saw wave on a 303 though and I can prove it.
I present to you - A119 Teebot AB:
[[ LINK REMOVED ]]
Can you name another synth that can sound like a minimoog, a saw wave TB-303, an OSCar, a DX7 and more, and still be able to replicate a number of sounds made on recent virtual analogue synths *AND* have its own distinct sound?
If you really think about it, you can make a hell load of analogue and a fair few digital type sounds on an Access Virus, a wider palette of sounds than any non modular VA synth. And more than you will ever need for any purpose you could realistically want out of a 300 quid second hand B model.
It can sound similar/close to alot.. but sounding similar to something that sounds good doesn't mean it sounds good =(.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by mysticalninja It can sound similar/close to alot.. but sounding similar to something that sounds good doesn't mean it sounds good =(. |
I have the same stance as Howard Scarr on the issue of cloning sounds.
1) You can learn alot from attempting to make perfect copies of sounds. You learn how envelope shapes sound. You learn how different filter configurations attenuate frequency in different ways and what it sounds like. In short, you learn alot about very specific details in sound, through the exercise of trying to rebuild them.
2) Once you have say, a clone of a flute sound or a minimoog sound, you can transform it into something totally different but equally complex in a matter of minutes.
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.