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-- Hell as frozen over...Muslims asking for crackdown on Muslim extremists groups
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Originally posted by trancaholic As to the contributions to science and the arts, I don't consider those good deeds, as they were (and are) primarily made in order to benefit one self. That others subsequently gets benefits from imitating you and build on your techniques doesn't make the original act of development "good".

This is true, but that does contravene the fact that it was Jewish, and Christian scientists working alongside Muslims who made these contributions to Science and the Arts for the greater good of their society, a society where Muslims were an extremely small minority.

quote:

Adding an aside to that, I would say that your description seems to be a little on the too rosy side: I did a wiki search and of the two articles dealing with Muslim Spain, the most optimistic one has this to say:

Consult a 100 different ancient history books and get a 100 different answers I'm not denying that this happened, these acts were very commonplace in that day and age, but an 800 year rule is a very long time and the two sources that i used to make my post(a documentary and book - but admittedly i watched/read them along time ago ) stated that while non-muslims did pay a tax to practice their faith they were "tolerated" far better than in any other country where they would have been a religious minority in that time period. Which is more than i can say about the Christian Revivalists during the Spanish Inquisition after Islamic Spain fell.

quote:

While I do agree that the treatment given to non-muslims are far better than those given by other religious groups to outsiders in that period, I have severe troubles seeing it as "good" treatment. If you counter that we should not judge people of the past by the norms and standards of today, then the whole issue becomes a non-issue, and we are back to observing Muslims' treatment of non-Muslims today (Darfur, Somalia...).

Hehe i already have It's hard not to use that argument; but instead of comparing todays values to those of yesteryear look instead at the paradigm shifts in thinking with regards to religious tolerance and human rights.

I'm not being an Islamic apologist either (i'm an Atheist and find all organised religion idiotic and often abhorrent) but in that day and age the roles were often reversed with regards to who was more tolerant to whom - Christians or Muslims. Of course that's a generalisation

stolen from the Toronto area of TA:

and here's what they show kids in iran on national TV, how cute
make sure you watch it all

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley ...Middle Eastern regimes have been battling against extremist Islam ... as it is those regimes, not the West that is the true target of Islamic extremism.

Holy shit you hit the nail on the head! I just read all your other comments and I'm extremely impressed. So hardcore trancer isn't the only qualified person to talk politics here!

I lived in Saudi Arabia for 13 years and currently there is such a strong anti-government movement there that the toppling of the Saudi monarchy is on the verge.

I remember when I was young, several weeks after performing a pilgrimage (called Umrah) in Makkah, during the Hajj season, there was a terror attack on the Ka'bah, the holiest mosque in the world. There were about 9 or 10 found guilty of the bomb attack and all were executed. This was in the late 80s/early 90s.

Currently, palaces (as well as expatriate residential complexes) are primary targets.

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