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-- More Liberal Behaviour Modification Schemes... Drop out? No driver's licence
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Moral Hazard, you are correct about the exemption for economic reasons. However Jayx needs to be reminded that this is not the 1940s or 50s - VERY few drop out of high school for economic reasons - the most common instance is teenage pregnancy. Banning drop-outs from getting their licenses is simply a deterrent. Let's face it, most drop-outs are just lazy people, who'd rather be out smoking dope and partying instead of hitting the books.

As for OAC - several studies on the issue showed that it was a complete waste of time. Remember, that Ontario was the only jurisdiction in North America with a fifth year of high school. Our students never performed any better in university than other provinces or states.

This was allready posted about a month or two ago. I never thought that this would really be implemented. Seems to be akin to hearding cows in the right direction, which is never a good way to treat people. Curbing high-school dropout rates is a great issue to tackle, but this is not the right way to go about it. As mentioned in this thread, if the standardized program taught in high schools were revamped, made more dynamic, then maybe not as many people would drop out. The value of education should be taught and pushed. This should probably start at a much earlier level of our education system. Consider, most immigrants comming into this country far exceed in math skills, and after a few years, English skills than those born and raised here. The value of education is impressed upon them at an early age. In my opinion, it seems that the Ontario government applies too many patchwork solutions. This government rarely ever has the will to commit to a long term goal, and thus slaps down useless bans and penalties on a yearly basis.

I personally thought it was a waste of time.

What they should do is keep high school a four year course, and then lower the drinking age to 18 like in most of the free world.

Re: Re: Re: Re: More Liberal Behaviour Modification Schemes... Drop out? No driver's licence

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard My understanding of the legislation is that there are exceptions available if the child's withdrawl from the education system was necessary for economic reasons.

Why not just let the parents decide?

Only seems logical that they would suggest this.
I mean if there are incentives for being a graduate, why not disentives for those that aren't?

Even if there was a legitimate reason for someone not being able to graduate in their 'year' there are lots of ways to catch up; there's no excuse.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Why not just let the parents decide?

I don't know, I'm not drafting the legislation! My guess, however, is that the instances of drop out are too high for the provinces liking. So they want to reduce this. Personally, since we all have a vested interest in educating the population I have no problem with this.

BTW, I seem to recall it also exempts people who have dropped out to enter an apprenticeship program for a skilled trade.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: More Liberal Behaviour Modification Schemes... Drop out? No driver's licence

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I don't know, I'm not drafting the legislation! My guess, however, is that the instances of drop out are too high for the provinces liking. So they want to reduce this. Personally, since we all have a vested interest in educating the population I have no problem with this. BTW, I seem to recall it also exempts people who have dropped out to enter an apprenticeship program for a skilled trade.

Again, i dont have a problem with what they are trying to acheive (i rarely do). Its just how they go about trying to do it. The methods that this government takes to try and change things are very paternalistic and i feel the government has no place in trying to be everyone's nanny.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: More Liberal Behaviour Modification Schemes... Drop out? No driver's lic

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Again, i dont have a problem with what they are trying to acheive (i rarely do). Its just how they go about trying to do it. The methods that this government takes to try and change things are very paternalistic and i feel the government has no place in trying to be everyone's nanny.

Years ago I would have agreed with you, however, given the clear lack of parenting skills that exist in this country and the detrimental effect it has had on our society I fear government intervention is necessary. Let's face it, the good parents out there are already doing, in large part, the social engineering the government is trying to implement. The bad parents are either incapable or unwilling to do the same.... thats exactly where the state needs to step in, for all our sake.

Interesting thread.
I almost got brainwashed into going conversative. heavenforbid.

I think getting rid of OAC was not a smart move at all. The highschool education system here is a complete joke.
It is extremely unfortunate most people in highschooldo not fully appreciate the opportunities and choices they have here.

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Originally posted by simms327 I didn't do OAC (out of province) but my impression of my friends is that it was a waste of time - most of them took easy courses and had tons of free time to kill.

Then your friends did not plan their high school careers well enough, imo. The people who just took bird courses in OAC were the same ones, if they had planned right, could have finished in 4 years anyways.

I took:
Physics
Bio
Econoics
Business Admin
Finite
English
World issues (bird course)

With the exception of the last course, none of those courses were that easy.

Yes, if you came from another province you would have been fine with their four year program, because it was properly set out. When referring to the Ontario four year system, it was not properly condensed. Things were left out, and students did not get a full plate of information.

oac wasnt a waste of time. you know howmany kids are NOT prepared for uni in the 4 year program? tonnnnnnnes. you know howmany are having to do victory laps because of it? lots. not to mention important material that was left out. not to mention all the other money cuts. thanks mike harris.


like I said. I dont know if this is the way to solve the problem... but I dont necessarly see it as a super bad thing. if a kid drops out at 16 or 17. he doesnt have to wait that long to get to 18.

but if they want their licence sooner they gotta stay in school.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Only seems logical that they would suggest this. I mean if there are incentives for being a graduate, why not disentives for those that aren't?

What incentives are those? Most individuals, if they're intelligent enough, will realize on their own the benefits of education, but from a direct perspective, people don't get a reward handed to them once they graduate from high school...

This is just 'hand-holding' people, literally pulling them along because "this direction is the only way to go". How many who are stupid enough to drop out are really going to believe this anyways.

Re: Re: Re: More Liberal Behaviour Modification Schemes... Drop out? No driver's licence

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Originally posted by Jayx1 By denying driver's licences to kids who drop out, you are actually promoting poverty. Why? Perhaps the kid is forced to get a job due to family hardship?

So let me get this straight, family is poor, extremely poor...so much so that child has to dropout of school due to "family hardship"...they promptly drop out, use their license and earn money with a car....where is this car comming from exactly? People with whom are considered poor to the point of poverty rarely have access to a vehicle, and further to that point, generally the cost of a license is out of the question.

Your argument was flawed, just wanted to show you why.

Ah fuck it I will take this one step further, child is poor, child drops out, Why?
When going to school is the most signifigant step towards ending a cycle of poverty. Undertsanding fully what the conservatives did to the educational system and all, the Liberals are taking a very strong positive step towards positivly altering the course of our young generation.

Re: Re: Re: Re: More Liberal Behaviour Modification Schemes... Drop out? No driver's licence

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Originally posted by 7-4-7 So let me get this straight, family is poor, extremely poor...so much so that child has to dropout of school due to "family hardship"...they promptly drop out, use their license and earn money with a car....where is this car comming from exactly? People with whom are considered poor to the point of poverty rarely have access to a vehicle, and further to that point, generally the cost of a license is out of the question. Your argument was flawed, just wanted to show you why. Ah fuck it I will take this one step further, child is poor, child drops out, Why? When going to school is the most signifigant step towards ending a cycle of poverty. Undertsanding fully what the conservatives did to the educational system and all, the Liberals are taking a very strong positive step towards positivly altering the course of our young generation.

how many people on welfare own a car? well i can think of two people that i personally know about. Sure they are jalopies but they are still cars.

im not against stopping kids from dropping out. But this is the absolute wrong way to do it.

Make it law to have kids in school until 18 unless a parent signs a form saying he can drop out. End of story.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Make it law to have kids in school until 18 unless a parent signs a form saying he can drop out. End of story.

ever forged your parents signiture?

A form = waste of time.
A signiture = a formality
Parents granting child ability to drop out = strange

Man, rest the arguement, move on, or find a new one.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: More Liberal Behaviour Modification Schemes... Drop out? No driver's licence

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Originally posted by 7-4-7 ever forged your parents signiture? A form = waste of time. A signiture = a formality Parents granting child ability to drop out = strange Man, rest the arguement, move on, or find a new one.

im pretty sure the parents would be in close contact with the school in this matter. This is not a case of being sick and off for a day.

Waste of time?

Well if giving someone a choice in how to parent their child is a waste of time, i feel sorry for you.

I say let them dropout. By the time a kid drops out they know that:

a) It will be incredibly hard to get a good (office) job.
b) You can goto Uni/College later as a mature student.
c) It's really easy to make a living above the poverty line, all you need to do is suck it up and do a job no one else likes doing. (Humbling one's self is the easiest way to succeed in life)

of course if all that fails...
d) There's always welfare. (nothing warms my heart like footing the bill for society's lazy shits)

The country needs garbage men, construction workers, janitors, box-lifters, fast-food managers and the like, and there are plenty of drop-outs willing to do it while all the graduates are out simultaeneously waiting tables AND for a job-opening in the field of work that matches their Uni/College degree.

Leave these kids alone, they ALL dropped out for a reason. Not everyone can be as easily institutionalized as the rest of society, not everyone can motivate themselves to work their asses off for 0 pay, not everyone wants a cozy office-job when they could be lifting garbage for the same pay and skip the whole school fiasco. Despite what you think, MOST drop-outs become contributing factors to our society. Who do you think mops your floors, collects your garbage, builds your streets, transports the items you want to purchase? A large percentage of people who actually DO society's dirty-work are drop-outs, and they're just as useful to society, if not moreso, than a silly graduate with an engineering degree waiting tables at a Kelsey's while they wait for a job-opening in their desired field of work. So leave drop-outs alone, and go on with your busy lives.

I'm a drop-out... how did that affect you? If you live anywhere near me, I may have made you a delicious pizza instead of going to college right away. Otherwise, guess what? It DIDN'T affect you. So leave drop-outs alone.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: More Liberal Behaviour Modification Schemes... Drop out? No driver's lic

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Originally posted by Jayx1 im pretty sure the parents would be in close contact with the school in this matter. This is not a case of being sick and off for a day. Waste of time? Well if giving someone a choice in how to parent their child is a waste of time, i feel sorry for you.

You are clearly a sucker for punishment.

sorry how is a form, which requires a signiture to get past it; a signiture which is easily FORGED, a viable way to ensure that a child NO LONGER HAS TO ATTEND SCHOOL, forever?

This is not a case of being physically ill, this is being sick of school and never wanting to attend school again.

ANd in that world of unreality that you clearly live in, do those children who have no aspirations in attending school, have this close bond with their parents who apparently support their children in their downward educational spiral. And this bond is further extended to include the childs' highschool administration who, with the child, his parents and this magical form determine that this child needs to leave school.

The world does not work this way, the child that wants to leave, does not want their parents, assuming that they are around, to know or to have any part of it.

PLease dont feel sorry for me...I cant imagine why you would....this law is about making school a priority for children.


funny how you avoid the part about school being the key to ending a cycle of poverty is irrelevant to you.

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Originally posted by 7-4-7 funny how you avoid the part about school being the key to ending a cycle of poverty

ROFL, what hole are YOU living in? School isn't the 'answer' to ending poverty, it just helps (ok, a lot). The #1 reason for people living in poverty is their own foolish choices. For some, that includes dropping out of school, for others it's just that they refuse to do a job that WILL earn them a proper living. I'm a dropout, and I already make more than the poverty line (currently estimated at 15000 a year), it is NOT hard to make a LIVING. 10 bucks an hour and full-time hours will do the trick! The question is, are you willing to spend wisely and make that money work for you? For most people living in poverty, the answer is 'NO'. And it has nothing to do with the fact that they dropped out, and has everything to do with the fact that they're ignorant fools who are offended by advice, critisism, and the fact they might have to actually WORK HARD and SETTLE FOR LESS to earn a living.

I've learned a few things in my life since I left school...

1: People are retarded, no matter how much education they have.
2: it takes WISDOM, not money to live comfortably in this world.
3: ANYONE can earn a proper living, there's ALWAYS a job that pays enough, you just need to willing to do it.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: More Liberal Behaviour Modification Schemes... Drop out? No drive

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Make it law to have kids in school until 18 unless a parent signs a form saying he can drop out. End of story.

Do you know how many parents would actually sign this form? Times have changed....there are ALOT of parents that would let their kids drop out of school so they could work. I saw it happen with a few of my friends in New York and Ontario really isn't any different.

Make it a law that kids CANNOT drop out until they are 18, and if they do it will be treated the same way as a child under 16 drops out.

16 year old kids should not have the privelidge of making the decision of whether or not to go to school. Most don't possess the maturity of making a decision such as that. I can't tell you how many of my classmates dropped out because they wanted to "party" or didn't feel like waking up so early.

Many countries don't let children drive until they're 18, we can't make the decision of choosing the prime-minister until we're 18 so why on earth is a child at 16 allowed to make the choice of whether or not he or she wants to attend school or not?

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Originally posted by KaiLee Because there are too many parents that could care less what their kid is doing.

There aren't 'too many' parents that could care less what their kid does... there are 'too many' parents who don't even KNOW what their kid is doing because they spend all their time working instead of parenting (and it's not entirely their fault, it's mainly because working hours are so long here in North America). There ARE parents who don't care about their kids, I'll give you that. But the MAIN problem here is that parents are no longer able to do their job (parenting) because work-hours are too long, and when they finally get home, their kid is at a 'friend's house' until they come home to sleep.

Which is probably why these kids end up at the point that they want to drop-out in the first place. They feel like no one, not even their parents, really care what they do, so why should they? Then they drop out.

We need parenting incentives in place. If parents were able to spend more time with their kids, instead of spending 3 hours a day between work and bed time with them, we would see an increase in graduation rates.

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Originally posted by Spam There aren't 'too many' parents that could care less what their kid does... there are 'too many' parents who don't even KNOW what their kid is doing because they spend all their time working instead of parenting (and it's not entirely their fault, it's mainly because working hours are so long here in North America). There ARE parents who don't care about their kids, I'll give you that. But the MAIN problem here is that parents are no longer able to do their job (parenting) because work-hours are too long, and when they finally get home, their kid is at a 'friend's house' until they come home to sleep. Which is probably why these kids end up at the point that they want to drop-out in the first place. They feel like no one, not even their parents, really care what they do, so why should they? Then they drop out. We need parenting incentives in place. If parents were able to spend more time with their kids, instead of spending 3 hours a day between work and bed time with them, we would see an increase in graduation rates.

I agree with you, but I've also had friends who had parents that never asked where they were going, who they were going with, when they would be home. Shouldn't a girl have a curphew at the age of 15? These moms were stay at home moms and never asked their son or daughter where they were going and gave them a time to come home when we would walk out the door. It may have seemed great at the age of 16, but now it seems a bit scary.

There are both parents in this world who don't care and don't know.

Point of the matter is, although some 16 year olds may be more mature than some 20 year olds....the general population of 16 year olds are NOT mature enough to make the decision to stay in school.

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Originally posted by KaiLee I agree with you, but I've also had friends who had parents that never asked where they were going, who they were going with, when they would be home. Shouldn't a girl have a curphew at the age of 15? These moms were stay at home moms and never asked their son or daughter where they were going and gave them a time to come home when we would walk out the door. It may have seemed great at the age of 16, but now it seems a bit scary. There are both parents in this world who don't care and don't know. Point of the matter is, although some 16 year olds may be more mature than some 20 year olds....the general population of 16 year olds are NOT mature enough to make the decision to stay in school.

Like I said, there ARE parents. But at the same time, it's not that those parents don'ta care, it's that they either: Blindly trust their kid, or, don't care. I'd put most of them in the blind-trust family. We've grown up with an entire generation of pussy-parents who have been afraid to put their foot down and put a little control on their kid's life. I think it's a generational thing. Because I don't see MOST of us growing into parents who don't even bother to ask their kid where they're going for the night... we all KNOW what that kid is probably doing, and we'll all be ready to do some investigating, because we've seen what it's like to grow up with what basically ammounts to a parentless generation.

You're right that most 16 year olds aren't mature enough to make a decision like that... but like most, you forget that they can fix those decisions later in life, they can STILL goto college or Uni as a mature student, they can even go back to adult-ed for their high school diploma... people that don't and look for handouts are people that have lost ambition to succeed, and whether they're forced to graduate or not, they're not going to succeed.

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Originally posted by Spam ROFL, what hole are YOU living in? School isn't the 'answer' to ending poverty, it just helps (ok, a lot). The question is, are you willing to spend wisely and make that money work for you? For most people living in poverty, the answer is 'NO'. And it has nothing to do with the fact that they dropped out, and has everything to do with the fact that they're ignorant fools who are offended by advice, critisism, and the fact they might have to actually WORK HARD and SETTLE FOR LESS to earn a living.

"The Hole" = Scarborough.

You say.... "School isn't the 'answer' to ending poverty, it just helps (ok, a lot)". - - ok, alot????WTF?? are you seriously arguing this at that point?

And the comment that I made was that it ENDS THE CYCLE OF POVERTY, the point is, as you say series of bad choices. Of which "dropping out" is one, of many. By making an investment in your HIGHER education you are making an investment in yourself, thus ending the cycle...

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