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quote:

Originally posted by Danny Ocean This debate has been made before. Trance and Classical have nothing in common, and they are not equivalent in anyway. Period. You're an ignorant waste of a human being if you think otherwise.

Ah, okay. I wasn't really debating anyone, just stating my opinion.

And we can all see how valid your opinion is by your last sentence. I feel dirty and trolled having even replied to it. <3

PLUR ~ ~ ~ !

There's certainly influence there, especially when it comes to big epic and melodic trance from the late 90s onward. As for psy, tribal, tech, darker and older kinds of trance, along with house music, techo and most EDM in general, if you want to draw a comparison, it should be with tribal music. It's been around for possibly millions of year - and this would just be a modern interpretation of it, coupled with modern influences like melodic elements.

OH GOD....


HOW THE HELL can trance be compared to classical i still can't understand?!?!?!I mean...how the complex evolving harmonic arrangements(comprised by giant orchestras with each and every man playing a note or a sequence of notes at a specific time!) of Mozart, tchaikovsky, beethoven(vivaldi was a bit simpler but still complex), brahms and the even more complex epic symphonies of mahler, wagner, berlioz, brahms or the unpredictable impressionistic works of debussy (with the melody changing in unpredictable ways every 2 secs.)be compared to a 4-note(!) riff that arpeggiates, just because a random guy pressed the "arpeggiate" button in fl-studio or the other "tracker" think that mirco de govia produces over a 4-4 bit...THIS IS PURE HERESSY OMG!!!!!!!!!EVIL...Stop this madness now!!!Trance is just club music guys...nothing more nothing less...

The only thing it could slightly relate to (and i mean really slightlllyyy)is the 20th century american minimalism of philip glass, john adams, steve reich etc. etc. etc. but still the relations between these are no bigger than...say e.g. a modern rock group like coldplay (who as well use simple minimalistic melancholic riffs but actually a bit more complex than trance as they don't press "buttons") to these american composers.

A very good example in my opinion as something modern close to classical or orchestral music in general (oohh by the way "classical" or "orchestral" music is not the same to "soundtrack" music like say e.g "vangelis"-who is very good but extremely simplistic in relatio to classical, ot say "hans Zimmer" or "John Williams" who are hm...just thieves of classical works and simple-epic-big-hollywood-theme-by-numbers-creating-machines)is the genre of "post-rock"(which is def. not rock) and i mean names like "Godspeed You Black Emperor"(ALL of you have to buy or even download the amazing double album with the name "Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven"- an epic symphonic piece of art by a bunch of arounf 10+ enigmatic canadian musicians), "Explosions in the Sky", "Sigur Ros"(although more "rock" structure) and "Silver Mount Zion" with long 10-20 minute evolving arrangements with slow passages evolving to crescendos and stuff... sample-

Explosions in the Sky- "Yasmin the Light" http://www.explosionsinthesky.com/m...minTheLight.mp3

An even more profound relation is the genre of "symphonic post-rock" with bands like "Rachel's" (who are comprised by 17 musicians!) here are same samples- http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/sto...,254834,00.html
and "Clogs"-although these are more "minimalist"
philip glass-wise.

Anyway's...i can see the excitement of some new people when they hear instrumental melodic music (such as trance), they can get easily impressed these days, especially when the majority of todays "radio" music is quite stupid formulaic simple songs,garage, r'n'b and stuff, but still,trance is just mainstream music to dance to...there is muuuccchhh mooore music out there you know!!!

I completely agree. Just because it's instrumental doesn't mean it's classical. Just because you hear arpeggiation doesn't mean it's classical. Just because it's not pop doesn't mean it's classical.

Seriously, EDM is possibly the most rigid style of music ever. You're limited to a 4/4 beat at 120-140 bpms. Anything else isn't as danceable.

Plus, you're looping 4/8/16 beats over 3-8 minute intervals. It's the same phrase over and over again. The drumline gets repeated for 256 beats or whatever. You don't see that kind of rigidness in classical music. By classical, I'm using the more general term (ie. Mozart, Beethoven-type classical + baroque + romantic + 20th century).

Try to understand a Bach fugue, or a Beethoven sonata. The level of complexity does not compare. Take Gouryella - Ligaya for example. Sounds very classical, but it only has about what...32 bars of (one-note) melody repeated over 5 min, a chord change every 8 beats, etc.

I don't listen to EDM for the lyrical/stylistic aspect. I enjoy it because it's fun and catchy. I enjoy the sound engineering aspect of EDM, but hell no, I don't listen to it for musical intellectualism.

quote:

Originally posted by cherrybarry I completely agree. Just because it's instrumental doesn't mean it's classical. Just because you hear arpeggiation doesn't mean it's classical. Just because it's not pop doesn't mean it's classical. Seriously, EDM is possibly the most rigid style of music ever. You're limited to a 4/4 beat at 120-140 bpms. Anything else isn't as danceable. Plus, you're looping 4/8/16 beats over 3-8 minute intervals. It's the same phrase over and over again. The drumline gets repeated for 256 beats or whatever. You don't see that kind of rigidness in classical music. By classical, I'm using the more general term (ie. Mozart, Beethoven-type classical + baroque + romantic + 20th century). Try to understand a Bach fugue, or a Beethoven sonata. The level of complexity does not compare. Take Gouryella - Ligaya for example. Sounds very classical, but it only has about what...32 bars of (one-note) melody repeated over 5 min, a chord change every 8 beats, etc. I don't listen to EDM for the lyrical/stylistic aspect. I enjoy it because it's fun and catchy. I enjoy the sound engineering aspect of EDM, but hell no, I don't listen to it for musical intellectualism.

this is the worst generalization ive heard. Its pretty naive to think that you won't find musical intellectualism in electronica.

did i not say i enjoy it for sound exploration? but that's not musical intellectualism in my book. ppl need to stop glorifying every single interest they have.

Holy shit. i didnt mean to start a bloodbath. Obviously you either see a connection or you dont. Let me clarify what i was trying to say. While there are endless reasons why EDM and Classical arent alike, DOES NOT MEAN that there is no connection what so ever. If I never learned how to play the piano, I probably would have never gotten into this genre to begin with. You guys have to go past the 4 to the floor *ooohn tick* that most of you are focusing on. I am a huge lover of impressionistic music. I have studied Debussy's and Ravel's works extensively. If any of you look into what impressionistic music is, its music that tries to convey a feeling through notes and melody. (unlike romantic, which tries to describe an actual event) Is that not what trance producers basically try to emulate? Dont they try to lift you up or take you to some tropical island somewhere? Or plunge you underwater or just seem to make you want to fight someone with a blunt weapon? If you need a practical example, isnt the point of it too get you in the mood to dance!? Besides Classical and EDM, how many other styles successfully attempt the same thing? Green Day isnt trying to give you wings. Lil' Jon isnt sending you into space. and contrary to popular thought, fiddy cent aint takin' you to atlantis. While EDM is elementary and not nearly as deep when compared to something such as Ravels "Une Barque sur la ocean" or Debussy's "La Cathedral Engloutie", it does the same thing: it tries to convey a feeling. and that is a connection. period.

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN OH GOD.... HOW THE HELL can trance be compared to classical i still can't understand?!?!?!I mean...how the complex evolving harmonic arrangements(comprised by giant orchestras with each and every man playing a note or a sequence of notes at a specific time!) of Mozart, tchaikovsky, beethoven(vivaldi was a bit simpler but still complex), brahms and the even more complex epic symphonies of mahler, wagner, berlioz, brahms or the unpredictable impressionistic works of debussy (with the melody changing in unpredictable ways every 2 secs.)be compared to a 4-note(!) riff that arpeggiates, just because a random guy pressed the "arpeggiate" button in fl-studio or the other "tracker" think that mirco de govia produces over a 4-4 bit...THIS IS PURE HERESSY OMG!!!!!!!!!EVIL...Stop this madness now!!!Trance is just club music guys...nothing more nothing less...

woops, did we tick off another classical snob?

I doubt you've ever really taken the time to analyse the complexity involved in both genres. Like most people you've just been brainwashed with this concept that composers like Mozart were like demi-gods and that classical music is superior and more 'intellectual' than all else. A concept not much different than the kind of DJ-worship that's often criticised on this board. Truth is - you wouldn't know musical genius if it hit you in the face, because you're stuck with this snobbist idea.

If you don't have anything intelligent to contribute, then don't. If you're going to spew your 1950's mentality then at least try and back it up with arguments and examples.

quote:

Originally posted by cherrybarry I completely agree. Just because it's instrumental doesn't mean it's classical. Just because you hear arpeggiation doesn't mean it's classical. Just because it's not pop doesn't mean it's classical. Seriously, EDM is possibly the most rigid style of music ever. You're limited to a 4/4 beat at 120-140 bpms. Anything else isn't as danceable. Plus, you're looping 4/8/16 beats over 3-8 minute intervals. It's the same phrase over and over again. The drumline gets repeated for 256 beats or whatever. You don't see that kind of rigidness in classical music. By classical, I'm using the more general term (ie. Mozart, Beethoven-type classical + baroque + romantic + 20th century). Try to understand a Bach fugue, or a Beethoven sonata. The level of complexity does not compare. Take Gouryella - Ligaya for example. Sounds very classical, but it only has about what...32 bars of (one-note) melody repeated over 5 min, a chord change every 8 beats, etc. I don't listen to EDM for the lyrical/stylistic aspect. I enjoy it because it's fun and catchy. I enjoy the sound engineering aspect of EDM, but hell no, I don't listen to it for musical intellectualism.

i see your points, but man you are WAAAAAYYYY off in some respects. i listen to EDM for "musical intellectualism"

and generalizing all EDM into "You're limited to a 4/4 beat at 120-140 bpms." is just nonsense. EDM is by far the most eclectic genre of modern music today. that's why i listen to it.

some people think that music has to follow certain rules, and that's bullshit. music is music, regardless of what key, tempo, time sig., whatever is in. the ugliest, most dissonant sounding shit song is still music.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Roco Holy shit. i didnt mean to start a bloodbath. Obviously you either see a connection or you dont. Let me clarify what i was trying to say. While there are endless reasons why EDM and Classical arent alike, DOES NOT MEAN that there is no connection what so ever. If I never learned how to play the piano, I probably would have never gotten into this genre to begin with. You guys have to go past the 4 to the floor *ooohn tick* that most of you are focusing on. I am a huge lover of impressionistic music. I have studied Debussy's and Ravel's works extensively. If any of you look into what impressionistic music is, its music that tries to convey a feeling through notes and melody. (unlike romantic, which tries to describe an actual event) Is that not what trance producers basically try to emulate? Dont they try to lift you up or take you to some tropical island somewhere? Or plunge you underwater or just seem to make you want to fight someone with a blunt weapon? If you need a practical example, isnt the point of it too get you in the mood to dance!? Besides Classical and EDM, how many other styles successfully attempt the same thing? Green Day isnt trying to give you wings. Lil' Jon isnt sending you into space. and contrary to popular thought, fiddy cent aint takin' you to atlantis. While EDM is elementary and not nearly as deep when compared to something such as Ravels "Une Barque sur la ocean" or Debussy's "La Cathedral Engloutie", it does the same thing: it tries to convey a feeling. and that is a connection. period.

This is a fucking good post.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Roco Holy shit. i didnt mean to start a bloodbath. Obviously you either see a connection or you dont. Let me clarify what i was trying to say. While there are endless reasons why EDM and Classical arent alike, DOES NOT MEAN that there is no connection what so ever.

Like I already said - there is a very vague connection with a very small amount of trance that borrows some classical elements. Most of it just doesn't have a connection, though.

quote:

Besides Classical and EDM, how many other styles successfully attempt the same thing? Green Day isnt trying to give you wings. Lil' Jon isnt sending you into space. and contrary to popular thought, fiddy cent aint takin' you to atlantis.

How do you know that the fans of those artists aren't feeling those things? You cannot make an assumption like that simply because they don't do it to you. People who hate EDM say the exact same thing about the stuff we like. It's just an opinion, it doesn't mean anything.

quote:

While EDM is elementary and not nearly as deep when compared to something such as Ravels "Une Barque sur la ocean" or Debussy's "La Cathedral Engloutie", it does the same thing: it tries to convey a feeling. and that is a connection. period.

All music tries to convey a feeling. It's not a connection.

I think the more melodic trance/prog etc is very closely related to classical music. The structure and form of the actually melody is quite similar. Classical music generally indicates change using tempo and volume dynamics. EDM works within the tempo to show increased urgency and depth. Both genres display something similar to buildups and breakdowns. I've 'midized' Tchaikovsky's 'Romeo & Juliet Fanstasy Overture' and it demonstrated buildups and breakdowns as well as any trance stormer. I would even dare say that EDM is more specialized type of "classical" music since it follows tends to follow a rigid time signature usually around an 8 bar repetition. Take one listen to Sinster Strings Edit of Brainbug - Nightmare and you could see any orchestra in the world would be able to play it without any modification. Additionally, if you haven't listen to Paul van Dyk conducting orchestral renditions of his tracks I would highly recommend since they cross over very well.

Additionally I do agree that 'some' EDM music couldn't hold a candle to the great composers of the past. But I would put Airdrawndagger or the Xpander EP next to some of the greatest musically works of the past. Previous posts mention that current EDM can not compare to the complexity and depth of Mozart, Brahms, etc. Well I can say that while complexity has its place, it does make a track timeless. I sang Mozart's 'Ave Maria' and it was only 22 measures. I sang another rendition by Brahms (I believe--it was someone famous) that was over 200 measures and had complexity galore. It still didn't even come close. Whether a track is complex or minimal either great or horrible you can not deny the similarities between these 'sister' genres.


BTW I love classical and choral music.

ffs someone go write a thesis bout it.


as a point of semi-irrelevance:I actually met someone at the Renassaince Summer Ball last year who wrote a PhD thesis on Sasha's music.

mad.

quote:

Originally posted by boi85 ffs someone go write a thesis bout it. as a point of semi-irrelevance:I actually met someone at the Renassaince Summer Ball last year who wrote a PhD thesis on Sasha's music. mad.

thanx for adding nothing to this "discussion"

if people with talents of mozart, bach are born now and given the full power of electronic synthesizers and softwares like Ableton i wonder what they will be capable of producing

quote:

Originally posted by Omega_M if people with talents of mozart, bach are born now and given the full power of electronic synthesizers and softwares like Ableton i wonder what they will be capable of producing

No kidding. Imagine Haydn with a Waldorf and Ableton. That would be badass.

posted before in a similar thread...so i'll say something short.

i always thought there was something similar in structure between trance and classical. and before people start yelling...of course it is not the same but i'm talking similarities here.

classical music is based on sonata form, which is described as three main parts. 1) Exposition (kind of an intro, where the theme of the song is introduced), 2) Development (theme is played in different keys and melodic tension is introduced), 3) Recapitulation (original theme is brought back and tension is released). Now, this should sound similar to trance if you loosely think about it.

this is the basic classical form of music, of course stuff changed a lot...but the majority of music abides to this form. but i'm sure one can hear the similarities if they think about it.

and yes, of course the majority of music is based on this simple formula...but trance seems to be the closest (and obvious) in my opinion. add in that most trance is melodic-based (yes arguably not), vs vocal based like pop songs, it is similar. add in that trance contains multiple layers and introduces and takes away layers subsequently (i.e. orchestral form where winds come in, brass comes in, 2nd violin section fades out, etc)...it is more similar.

anyhow, that's my two cents. i'll leave you with what my professor said about Rachmaninoff's Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini...the form of that song is so damn simple...the melody was so good that all he had to do was introduce it...then repeat it louder with more layers....AND THEN repeat it AGAIN with even more layers. that is the beauty of it.

sounds like most good trance eh?

quote:

anyhow, that's my two cents. i'll leave you with what my professor said about Rachmaninoff's Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini...the form of that song is so damn simple...the melody was so good that all he had to do was introduce it...then repeat it louder with more layers....AND THEN repeat it AGAIN with even more layers. that is the beauty of it.

Rhapsody on a Theme is a set of 24 variations. You're referring to only the 18th, which is the famous one. And it is not so simple...he didn't pull that melody out of nowhere. It is the original melody but inverted. To comment on a piece like that, you really can't take that one variation out of context. You have to view the work as a whole and study the other 23 variations, which makes it not such a "simple" work.

There's so many other features in classical music that aren't found in EDM...ie. dynamics control, phrasing, tonality, intonation, etc. You listen to these mastered EDM tracks and they are really phrased poorly with poor dynamics, etc. Not a fault of a the producer, but there are some things that are better when a computer doesn't do it.

quote:

Originally posted by cherrybarry Rhapsody on a Theme is a set of 24 variations. You're referring to only the 18th, which is the famous one. And it is not so simple...he didn't pull that melody out of nowhere. It is the original melody but inverted. To comment on a piece like that, you really can't take that one variation out of context. You have to view the work as a whole and study the other 23 variations, which makes it not such a "simple" work. There's so many other features in classical music that aren't found in EDM...ie. dynamics control, phrasing, tonality, intonation, etc. You listen to these mastered EDM tracks and they are really phrased poorly with poor dynamics, etc. Not a fault of a the producer, but there are some things that are better when a computer doesn't do it.

and i'll refer to my original post where i said...

quote:

Originally posted by me and before people start yelling...of course it is not the same but i'm talking similarities here.

OF COURSE there's a busload of differences between classical and trance. rach's rhapsody on a theme is based on the original work of paganini...but so what? he took the simple greatness of the melody and improved on it...that's the genius of it. but i'm not going to get into any classical debates here; that's not the point.

quote:

Originally posted by Aquarian If you don't have anything intelligent to contribute, then don't. If you're going to spew your 1950's mentality then at least try and back it up with arguments and examples. quote: Ok, and the random-guy in fl-studio/jeskola buzz stacking 4 notes and pressing the "Arpeggiate" button doesn't satisfy you than? QUOTE] I am a huge lover of impressionistic music. I have studied Debussy's and Ravel's works extensively. If any of you look into what impressionistic music is, its music that tries to convey a feeling through notes and melody Ok...so you find relations between the totally avant-garde,un-predictable and unorthodox symphonic pieces of work like debussy's "Nocturnes" and "La Mer" to..let's say teh stuff that armin van buuren plays in his ASOT show or Markus Schulz?!!?!?!This is completely wrong i think... i mean listen to "La mer iiiialogue du vent et de la mer" "conversation between wind and sea" in which debussy tries to create a dynamic ambience where the patterns representing the sea and others the wind rise,alternate and change in very complicated ways (and often non-harmonic as i remember) to the c-c-c-c-c-e-e-e-e-e-a-a-a-b-b-b-g-g-g--d-d-d-d-d-d pattern that repeats over a 4-4 beat for 8 minutes!?!?!?!?Well, trance may at times sound like it, because it's instrumental,very harmonic and there are strings all over the place but is as linear and simple as hell,and despite these similarities,there are no other similarities whatsoever!There are "Surface similarities"(aesthetic qualities at times) bot not a single "deep similarity"("music structure"),and classical has similarities with HUNDREDS other genres(it was the big starting point in the first place, the other being jazz) QUOTE]Besides Classical and EDM, how many other styles successfully attempt the same thing? Green Day isnt trying to give you wings. Lil' Jon isnt sending you into space. and contrary to popular thought, fiddy cent aint takin' you to atlantis. While EDM is elementary and not nearly as deep when compared to something such as Ravels "Une Barque sur la ocean" or Debussy's "La Cathedral Engloutie", it does the same thing: it tries to convey a feeling. and that is a connection. period.

Ok, this is completely wrong...obviously you are very young though...Sorry...come again..."how many styles succesfully attempt the same thing???"(to convey feeling through notes and melody...to "create pictures" and "emotions" in my words) EEHmmmm around 100 mooree styleess that you probably haven't heard of!!!!....i mean if you compare classical and EDM to green day and 50 cent and all the MTV stuff for god's sake you are not going to find anything similar for sure!!!!!This is exactly what i've said in my previous post which was...

quote:

Anyway's...i can see the excitement of some new people when they hear instrumental melodic music (such as trance), they can get easily impressed these days, especially when the majority of todays "radio" music is quite stupid formulaic simple songs,garage, r'n'b and stuff, but still,trance is just mainstream music to dance to...there is muuuccchhh mooore music out there you know!!!

And than i mentioned some genres and names such as "post-rock" (Godspeed you black emperor-10-20 minute long orchestral works)and "symphonic post-rock" (Rachel's a 17-piece act)samples-
http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/sto...,254834,00.html

But these compared to trance are waayyy to complicated and musical, i can think of thousand other things both electronic and not electronic which are still more musical and "satisfying" in relation to trance...and i mean atmospheric music with lot's of layer's of melodies and stuff(creates strong imagery and emotions) and still being WAY MORE complicated and musical than trance...e.g 70s prog-rock Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Van Der Graaf Generator, Camel, Gentle Giant,Genesis the 70s germanic "kraut-rock" scene Neu!, Can, Faust, Kraftwerk, Tangerine Dream,Amon Duul, 70s ambient proto-electronica Brian Eno, Vangelis, Jean Michael Jarre ,Klaus Schulz, 80s new-wave The Cure, Joy Division, Echo and The Bunnymen (There was an orchestra in "the killing moon" album),The Chameleons U.K (faantasticc band fantastic music-layers of reverbed quitars and synths, each song of theirs was a piece of art)80S avant-garde/dark-wave music and the "4AD" sound Dead Can Dance, The Cocteau Twins, This Mortal Coil(yes "song to the siren" is theirs), Clan of Xymox, 80s industrial(although more noisy and experimental but always more experimental than ANY of todays EDM) Front-242, Cabaret Voltaire,Einsturzende Neubauten, Liaison Dangeroueses,90s shoe-gazer/dream-pop-Slowdive, Lush, Ride, Curve,My Bloody Valentine(these are very melodic and atmospheric).90s dark ambient-Windy and Carl, Lustmord, Labradford, Stars of the Lid,Lycia, Black Tape for a Blue Girl, Stoa ...Even a lot of "metal" is quite symphonic from power metal and acts like Rhapsody and Blind Guardian to gothic metal and orchestal acts like theatre of tragedy, the sins of thy beloved, within temptation,therion(proper classical music....this swedish guy rents whole orchestras in order to record his albums...) and way moree otherss.Leaving more "alternative/underground" music even genres of EDM were way more forward-thinking and musical than trance... 90s detroit techno derrick May, Model-500, Carl Craig (although these were simpler, they were done in an analogue way and they were waayy to more forward-thinking at-least when they first appeared), IDM ,Orbital,Leftfield, Underworld, Autechre, Aphex Twin, The Orb,Bola, Global Communication,FSOL...ohh i can continue with hundreds of names and many more genres, these are just a few random names that came to mind...and i spent all this time just to show you that there are waaayyy mooreee than POP music and (uplifting/melodic/euphoric/epic) trance IS POP(ular) !!!!!!!!!!!!!As i said before even popular rock groups like Coldplay and Keane make more complicated music and they are definitely more musical and melodic...

You have just to look beyond the radio and the T.V....!!!!
[ [

Sorry the first "quote" message is all mine(a new message) and a response to aquarian and Dj Roco...something terrible happened there....!!!!Sorry....

well, u certainly aren't an English major

quote:

Originally posted by cherrybarry well, u certainly aren't an English major

It's a good thing you noticed the most essential part of his post.

quote:

Originally posted by cherrybarry well, u certainly aren't an English major

The irony.

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN ...rock groups like Coldplay and Keane make more complicated music and they are definitely more musical and melodic...

You gotta be kidding me. Coldplay and most of their copycats are mind numbingly simplistic. Maybe you should turn up the volume or get your hearing checked, because well produced trance tracks have up to ten times as many elements playing simultaneousely and interlocking in complex ways, not just a drummer, piano, guitar and lead singer who sounds like a dying cat.

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