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quote:

Originally posted by paranoik0 allergic to dust. it's been annoying today as hell, ears and throat both feel weird.

Yea a lot of people are and don't even know it. Im allergic to cats but I still have them lol. My face gets all itchy.

Hehee... I'm not allergic to anything! .... apart from chavs, maybe.

I'm allergic to:

Pollens
Dust mites
All animals with fur
Cigarette smoke
Some perfumes
Some cheese (may be slightly lactose intolerant)

Seriously allergic to:

Rodents

Yup, it is pretty sucky.
I have been put on Advair, which seems to work pretty well. Don't have an epi-pen, because what are the odds I will come into contact with a rodent unless it is by my own will?

i smell a rat

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow i smell a rat

Quit sniffing yourself, and get the hell away from me.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa Quit sniffing yourself, and get the hell away from me.

ur cute when you get angry want some cheese?

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow ur cute when you get angry want some cheese?

No thanks, I set it out for you...

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Yeah, I've got nothing against killing animals in order to eat them. In spite of that, I've had to deal with the burden of being a vegetarian in a few moments in my life because of unbalanced people. Heh.

Everytime someone eats meat its equivalent to undertaking a real MilgRAM Electroshock experiment. Only you never hear the animal.

Civilization now has the wherewithal to look ahead and realize that when we look back meat eating (especially industrial production) will be at best be kinda embarrasing

[edit: I peeked at the next card in my deck... it's art was done by Rollo May and the card title is "Pseudo-Innocence" ]

quote:

Originally posted by Subey Everytime someone eats meat its equivalent to undertaking a real MilgRAM Electroshock experiment. Only you never hear the animal. Civilization now has the wherewithal to look ahead and realize that when we look back meat eating (especially industrial production) will be at best be kinda embarrasing

Well, there are several reasons not to think that way, actually.

• Dead animals: Usually, the first thing vegetarian militants say is that the killing of animals is wrong. Fair enough, it's a fellow living being, right? Unfortunately, except for minerals and artificial products, everything we eat was once alive (animals or vegetables).
  
  How familiar are you with plants? They do lots of stuff other animals do, such as growing, eating, absorbing nutrients, reproducing and, I've even witnessed the existence of plants that reacted to touch - that's certainly a proof that plants do have some sort of sensibility.
  
  When crops are cut and collected, you can't avoid killing plants.
  
  
• Living animals: There's also the thought that animals would be better off in the wild, and that they'd live a less stressful life or something.
  
  As far as I know, when animals are in cattle, humans are the only beings that might threaten their lives. If the aforementioned humans have some sense of economy, they'd know that the better animals are treated, the lower mortality taxes are (i.e. there's more profit).
  
  In the wild, they could get killed anytime anyway. It's not like they'd live forever or anything. In fact, just like us, they'd kill in order to live.
  
  
• Economy: There's some sort of theory saying that we could live only with vegetables, and that our economy would support such change. Naturally, you're talking about the so-called developed countries, because poor countries wouldn't even manage to simply ditch something their economies might depend on. Transferring this burden to developed countries is also utopic, as you might turn countries with little arable land as completely dependent institution, in a level worse than we see today.
  
  If food distribution is already a problem today, imagine what it would be like if you decided to simply stop raising cattle, for example, in regions where they're necessary.
  
  
• Respect: Personally, I don't need others to make decisions for me, as I trust my judgement. Therefore, I don't see why I should impose my view on others either, since I'm far from being a source of absolute truth.
  

hayfever is a bastard

quote:

Originally posted by Lira I'm somehow allergic to meat. Don't ask, I wouldn't be able to explain it myself.

thats terrible

quote:

Originally posted by KilldaDJ hayfever is a bastard

Today's the last day here in Holland...
Damnit, have to go to work by bike today!

quote:

Originally posted by Lira [*]Respect: Personally, I don't need others to make decisions for me, as I trust my judgement. Therefore, I don't see why I should impose my view on others either, since I'm far from being a source of absolute truth. [/list]

While I understand the logic of the Four points you've put forth I am confident that 3 words defeat all 4 of them.

'Quality of Life'

I think the easiest way to visualize it is to think of Zoos.

If a Polar bear lived in the same conditions at a zoo as an industrial animal then the viewing public would be horrified. Its only a fallacy of human nature that allows it to persist in industrial food production. And that's an attribute of humanity that exists in the same constelation as was touched upon by Milgram.

When we are insulated from something (whether it be the suffering of animals or people or nature) then its very easy for us to avoid considering it. In large part because we are pseudo-innocent in that if we followed the thought through to its logical conclusion our lives would be derailed.

So instead of derailing our lives we simply get off a stop before then which allows us to maintain our status quo.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira [*]Respect: Personally, I don't need others to make decisions for me, as I trust my judgement. Therefore, I don't see why I should impose my view on others either, since I'm far from being a source of absolute truth.

Every location where culture exists has 3 primary windows from which it can be seen. One says "better to move forward". One says "better to move backward" and one says "better to stay here". One is more true than the others, and on this issue you are at the wrong window.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira By the way, I saw a thread of yours in the Brazilian forum - I'm writing a reply there anytime soon (it just that these long replies take a lot of time to be written )

I will assume you've sacrificed your perspective on animals in order to have a more accurate perspective on that topic. I'll check back in there with greater frequency looking for your reply.

Florida

quote:

Originally posted by Subey While I understand the logic of the Four points you've put forth I am confident that 3 words defeat all 4 of them. 'Quality of Life' I think the easiest way to visualize it is to think of Zoos. If a Polar bear lived in the same conditions at a zoo as an industrial animal then the viewing public would be horrified. Its only a fallacy of human nature that allows it to persist in industrial food production. And that's an attribute of humanity that exists in the same constelation as was touched upon by Milgram. When we are insulated from something (whether it be the suffering of animals or people or nature) then its very easy for us to avoid considering it. In large part because we are pseudo-innocent in that if we followed the thought through to its logical conclusion our lives would be derailed. So instead of derailing our lives we simply get off a stop before then which allows us to maintain our status quo.

Oh, so you're talking about Stanley Milgram, I didn't recognise it when you capitalised "RAM". That makes things easier, as this analogy seems to make your example even less consistent.

First of all, you're assuming that the conditions we'd see a polar bear in an industrial context would be horrible. However, given the facts that:

• Polar bears are extremely sensitive to heat: Both in Singapore and Chicago, algae grew in their fur, turning it green, as the temperature was too hot. Such infestetion would decrease the monetary value of the coat.
  
  
• Polar bears are extremely carnivorous: They'd require great amounts of food (i.e. other animals) and, if you give them a limited diet, not only their meat wouldn't be suitable for consumption (in fact, I know that their liver is poisonous to humans, so I would even wonder whether their meat could be used that way), it would lead to their death. Now, they don't reproduce that much, and the gestation takes quite long. What do you think would happen if they were not given proper care? Even the owner would have a lot to lose from it.
  

• Authority: Milgram's experiment was a test on authority, and giving the shocks was a key factor to the experiment.
  
  When you eat meat, it's not a test on authority because it's deeply connected to hunger: no one tells you to eat, that's a human necessity. It's a strive for survival, rather than a random act. Therefore, all the following factors can't be compared as if they represented the same phenomenom.
  
  
• Direct vs. indirect responsability: The learner was there supposedly because he wanted to, and and the participants were told that they wouldn't have to hold any responsability if the learner eventually died from the injuries. There was a direct link between pressing the button and the belief that the learner was being injured.
  
  When you eat meat, unless you kill the animal yourself, there's an indirect responsability - once again, differing from Milgram's experiment. In fact, the limit of perception you mentioned (as in "pseudo-innocence") is also what led participants to believe they were harming the learner with the shocks, when they weren't (at all). Therefore, as you have absolutely no guarantees that the farm the vegetables you eat come from is not harming the environment, the argument ends up being valid for both sides. There's absolutely no reasons why vegetarianism is freed of unintended consequences, specially when it seems to have such emotional background.
  
  In fact, it reminds me of a documentary about students fighting sweatshops when they've clearly never seen one in their lives. They ended up doing more harm than good, even though their intention was honourable.
  

quote:

Originally posted by eXo Latino music of any kind, especially that stupid ass "Reggaton" bullshite.

absolute BS music

quote:

Originally posted by Lira I'll try to write today

I'll give you and your allergy that allows you to land on the right side of the argument in practice the last word.

Go Croatia!

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