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quote:

Originally posted by DJSentinel Well in Minor, you lower the third, the sixth, and the seventh a half step. So.. CMAJOR) C-D-E-F-G-A-B CMINOR) C-D-D#-F-G-G#-A# This applies to all Major and Minor scales.

yike that's the most atrocious spelling of the C minor scale i've ever seen.

the major in C (all white keys):

C D E F G A B C

the minor scale FLATS those notes as you said above however, thier spellings would be as FLATS ie:

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

YOU MUST GO ALPHABETICALLY WHEN CONTRUCTING ANY SCALE

for instance

G MAJOR is spelled

G A B C D E F# G (see the alphabet F(#) THEN G)

NOT NOT NOT

G A B C D E Gb G (you did not go alphabetically and cannot repete note names)

I'm an aspiring producer and just put out my first album although I'm a guitar, piano, and theory teacher for a living, and have classical training as well as a background in composition. Any questions anyone may have, i'd be glad to help out with. =)

Quick stupid n00b questions, just to make sure:

Once I have picked a scale:
1)Can I use any combination of the keys in that scale? There is no order or something?
2) All notes should be in that scale right, also the bassline etc?
3) If there are 2 notes at the same time, for example: instrument and bassline. Can I use any combination of the keys of the scale then for each note apart, or is that what chord theory is for (to make it harmonic)?

I am asking question 3 because everywhere I have read that chords are for making single instruments more powerful (give it a fuller sound). But I have read nowhere that chords are also for instrument/bassline combinations etc. But when I use any notes of the scale, it sucks.

YES
NO
YES

quote:

Originally posted by Channel Surfer yike that's the most atrocious spelling of the C minor scale i've ever seen. the major in C (all white keys): C D E F G A B C the minor scale FLATS those notes as you said above however, thier spellings would be as FLATS ie: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C YOU MUST GO ALPHABETICALLY WHEN CONTRUCTING ANY SCALE for instance G MAJOR is spelled G A B C D E F# G (see the alphabet F(#) THEN G) NOT NOT NOT G A B C D E Gb G (you did not go alphabetically and cannot repete note names) I'm an aspiring producer and just put out my first album although I'm a guitar, piano, and theory teacher for a living, and have classical training as well as a background in composition. Any questions anyone may have, i'd be glad to help out with. =)

Well if you want to be so fucking correct then yes you are right, but maybe you should be looking to help others and not waste your time correcting every mistake I make. I could go on for hours about you not using correct english grammar when you post, which I don't think you used a single period during your whole post to end your sentences, but I won't because it's the message that counts here. If I really wanted to I would post scales in Hz :-P.

Burn me.

whoa man wasn't trying to come on strong, sorry. however misinformation can be really bad for ppl trying to learn. and if you read my entire, poor grammar, post, you'd see my whole intention was to offer my sevices to anyone with any questions....hopefully we can bury this here becuz no likes it when an otherwise valuable thread turns into a flame war. once again, my apology.

quote:

Originally posted by Thois Quick stupid n00b questions, just to make sure: Once I have picked a scale: 1)Can I use any combination of the keys in that scale? There is no order or something? 2) All notes should be in that scale right, also the bassline etc? 3) If there are 2 notes at the same time, for example: instrument and bassline. Can I use any combination of the keys of the scale then for each note apart, or is that what chord theory is for (to make it harmonic)? I am asking question 3 because everywhere I have read that chords are for making single instruments more powerful (give it a fuller sound). But I have read nowhere that chords are also for instrument/bassline combinations etc. But when I use any notes of the scale, it sucks.

nah man, no stupid questions here...

1) to begin with refer to notes in the scale as either notes, tones, or degrees. Keys, although they do refer to piano keys, means the tonal centers around which the given scale is built ie C is a key, Dm is a key etc. a scale run like C Eb F G Bb is NOT a key.

but yes any combination of the notes in a key can be used together however some combinations are gonna work nicer than others. like if you take the first 5 notes in C (C D E F G) and you play C E G (1,3,5) that's a major chord (C) but say you play C D E (1,2,3) that's gonna be a nasty mess, however might prove useful depending on what you're going for.

2) using only tones that are diatonic (from) that scale will be a pretty can't miss system for maintaining good tonality without violating the key or ppls ears. yes, the bassline notes should absolutely be from the chosen scale. but like in c again if your first bassnote is c and then you move to and F say, that's not a melodic motion, that would be a chord change. so if you had c in the bass the other synths might have something like E, G, Bb, or D up top.....and then when you were on that F bass tone, non of those tones would be pleasant, you'd need like A, C, Eb, or G...how do you know this....

First, memorize the names of all the notes in the OCTAVE ie:

A A#/Bb B C C#/Db D D#/Eb, E, F, F#/Gb, G, G#/Ab (A)

this is the 12 tone system of western music, it is essential before understanding scales, chords, or progressions.

then learn the triad (three note) combinations of those tones ie

MAJOR
R 3rd 5th
C E G

MINOR
R b3rd 5th
C Eb G

that's only two.

in my opinion there's two ways to compose. hit and miss, and theory based comprehension. I can assure you though Van Dyke or even John Williams know what key their songs are in and what chords and scales they used even if it wasn't conscious at the time of writing.

3) ah should have read 3 a little closer. yeah again you can and can't just use any two notes. say you have c in the bass and g in the mel, it'll work nicely, but say you have c in the bass and like d or b in the mel....that's gonna be a dissonance. sometimes that's intentional but i can promise you you will not like the sound as much as two CONSONANT notes like C and E, C and G, or C and A.

it's a lot i know. however any producer serious about their music would benefit greatly from getting some theory background and even piano lessons. knowing some theory doesn't mean you think it when you write, but it does give you tools to never run out of ideas and to compose in the truest sense of the word.

quote:

Originally posted by DJSentinel Well if you want to be so fucking correct then yes you are right, but maybe you should be looking to help others and not waste your time correcting every mistake I make. I could go on for hours about you not using correct english grammar when you post, which I don't think you used a single period during your whole post to end your sentences, but I won't because it's the message that counts here. If I really wanted to I would post scales in Hz :-P. Burn me.

only problem is that this is a music website, not a grammar website. You were wrong. Suck it up. He was just shedding some light. If you are going to try and teach theory, do it right or at least let people that know what they are talking about talk.

tnx Channel Surfer, I have learned a lot

quote:

Originally posted by Thois 1)Can I use any combination of the keys in that scale? There is no order or something?

Mostly yes, but there is at least one exception I know of, which is the melodic minor scale. In that scale one of the notes changes by a semitone based on whether you are going up the scale or down. There's probably others too but I don't know enough theory.

quote:

Originally posted by pho mo Mostly yes, but there is at least one exception I know of, which is the melodic minor scale. In that scale one of the notes changes by a semitone based on whether you are going up the scale or down. There's probably others too but I don't know enough theory.

in minor modes , it is tradition to raise the 7th note of the scale when you are going back to one or ascending. Not really a rule .just something that happened in about 99% of western classical music and that was passed on.

So lets say you were in A minor

you would play G# - A instead of G - A.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV only problem is that this is a music website, not a grammar website. You were wrong. Suck it up. He was just shedding some light. If you are going to try and teach theory, do it right or at least let people that know what they are talking about talk.

Well actually it depends. If I was spelling the scale UP my way was correct, but If I was spelling the scale DOWN, he would be correct. Atleast I was taught that way. Maybe it is different when you write it down, but I was taught you say/spell it the direction your spelling it in.

I don't even know why we are arguing about this. If someone asked me what the harmonic frequency in any given wave and I replied "well its seems to be the 5th or 659Hz of the base freqency 440Hz," but then you could say "no, there is no harmonic frequency. Actually there is a base frequency of 659Hz and a SUB-harmonic frequency which is the sub-4th or 440Hz."

I know that this is a music website, but maybe people haven't learned the same way. So unless I made a mistake like saying E natural is in the Cminor scale, maybe we should keep gramatics out of it. Thats at least my opinion. If you really think we should be very precise in how we say things, they maybe I should start tell people whenever they make a false referece to a term, I should correct them.

Jerry: Man I'm wanting to make this sound a bit more robust. How can I do it?
Mandy: Well if you applied an LFO to that oscillator then it would sound awesome!
Me: What the fuck are you talking about? You can "apply" an LFO to an oscillator. You can "modulate" a "parameter" with the LFO's "output signal" or "output value."
Mandy: Well im sorry, I assumed you knew he was using V-Station!?
Me: Well we are not on a Novation forum, were on a music forum :-P
Jerry: Your a douche bag.
Me: Wanna fight?

See what I mean?

No worries. I love you all :-D
Peace,
DJS

quote:

Originally posted by DJSentinel Well actually it depends. If I was spelling the scale UP my way was correct, but If I was spelling the scale DOWN, he would be correct. Atleast I was taught that way. Maybe it is different when you write it down, but I was taught you say/spell it the direction your spelling it in. I don't even know why we are arguing about this. If someone asked me what the harmonic frequency in any given wave and I replied "well its seems to be the 5th or 659Hz of the base freqency 440Hz," but then you could say "no, there is no harmonic frequency. Actually there is a base frequency of 659Hz and a SUB-harmonic frequency which is the sub-4th or 440Hz." I know that this is a music website, but maybe people haven't learned the same way. So unless I made a mistake like saying E natural is in the Cminor scale, maybe we should keep gramatics out of it. Thats at least my opinion. If you really think we should be very precise in how we say things, they maybe I should start tell people whenever they make a false referece to a term, I should correct them. Jerry: Man I'm wanting to make this sound a bit more robust. How can I do it? Mandy: Well if you applied an LFO to that oscillator then it would sound awesome! Me: What the fuck are you talking about? You can "apply" an LFO to an oscillator. You can "modulate" a "parameter" with the LFO's "output signal" or "output value." Mandy: Well im sorry, I assumed you knew he was using V-Station!? Me: Well we are not on a Novation forum, were on a music form :-P Jerry: Your a douche bag. Me: Wanna fight? See what I mean? No worries. I love you all :-D Peace, DJS

i think there is a foundation all theory is based on and when you start to talk about theory and not follow the foundations , it will result in some confusion. You are right it is all semantics but they are things that will result in more confusion.

You missed my point... you want to fight me?



Yeah yeah you may be right but lets talk about ASOT 256!

quote:

Originally posted by DJSentinel Well actually it depends. If I was spelling the scale UP my way was correct, but If I was spelling the scale DOWN, he would be correct. Atleast I was taught that way. Maybe it is different when you write it down, but I was taught you say/spell it the direction your spelling it in.

again, terribly wrong. don't take it personally, shit i don't know you (or care to) but accurate spelling of scales is essential not only notationally, but in terms of chord spelling as well.

your c minor triad with a D# would not hold water in any music situation wheather it be note reading, chord spelling, or music production.

if you were taught that way, it's not your fault, but for your own sake learn the alphebetical spelling of any and every scale and you'll only have more clarity and functionality.

a little further theory training:

western music has been broken down into the 12 tone system. that means you go 12 half steps and you're back on the pitch you started on, which is known as an octave.

an octave is an excample of an INTERVAL

and INTERVAL is defined as the DISTANCE from note X to note Y. ie a half step is a different distance and than say your Octave.

NOW every one of said 12 notes has an intervolic name
...below I have rewritten the names of all the notes and have also put their intervolic name

NOTE NAMES: A A#/Bb B C C#/Db D D#/Eb E F F#/Gb G G#/Ab (A)
INTERVALS: R m2 M2 m3 M3 P4 #4/b5 P5 m6 M6 m7 M7 P8

m=minor
M=major
P=perfect

A to A# could be considerd a "half step" but the proper intervolic name for it would a "minor 2nd" like couting from 1 to 2 but not just any 2....minor 2....

A to B could be called "whole step" but more appropriatly it is a "major 2nd" and on and on.

hopefully this helps a little more.

quote:

Originally posted by Channel Surfer again, terribly wrong. don't take it personally, shit i don't know you (or care to) but accurate spelling of scales is essential not only notationally, but in terms of chord spelling as well. your c minor triad with a D# would not hold water in any music situation wheather it be note reading, chord spelling, or music production. if you were taught that way, it's not your fault, but for your own sake learn the alphebetical spelling of any and every scale and you'll only have more clarity and functionality.

Ok, may I ask you one thing... do D# and Eb sound the same?

Um... yeah :-|

At this point I don't give a damn about scale spellings. D# and Eb sound the same and they always will. At least I know enough music theory to compose and produce music.

EOD,
DJSentinel

Ps. I don't take anything personally, its all good.

in Sentinels defence

most modern composers don't use keys or key signatures and generally don't follow the theory rules and often use enharmonic values for notes. Like using G instead of F##.

But for trance and simple music , i think it will be much more helpfull to learn the old fashion way.The people that stopped using key signatures also learned this way. It is just an easy straight forward way to learn it.

To get philosophical on ya...

Theory is to be learned and then unlearned.

Theory can easily become it's own worst enemy because it can kill creativity if overdone.

I've learned some theory, but listening to lots of styles of music and learning as much as possible by ear is the route I'm taking now.

I know I said EOD for me "end of discussion," but if I played a Cminor triad with a D#, how would that not "hold any water?"

If I hit the C key, the D# key, and the G key on my piano, what comes out?

I'm not attacking, just wondering how it doesn't hold water, unless you talking about it not holding "spelling" water.

Then I don't care

EOD,
DJS

I think it's pointless to argue about how the C minor triad wouldn't "hold water" especially since the only thing you're doing is renaming Eb with D#. Okay so your C major triad is C, E, G. And then you move the second down a half step to get C, Eb, G, but is D# and Eb not the one in the same? It's just stupid to make an argument like that although you're more than correct that some music theorists would be odded out by that.

quote:

Originally posted by Lindo I think it's pointless to argue about how the C minor triad wouldn't "hold water" especially since the only thing you're doing is renaming Eb with D#. Okay so your C major triad is C, E, G. And then you move the second down a half step to get C, Eb, G, but is D# and Eb not the one in the same? It's just stupid to make an argument like that although you're more than correct that some music theorists would be odded out by that.

ouch Lindo, whoever heard of a three flat minor key with a sharp in it.

hand a score to an orchestra in c minor with a D# in it....

teach music everyday for a living then talk to me like i'm clueless.

quote:

Originally posted by DJSentinel I know I said EOD for me "end of discussion," but if I played a Cminor triad with a D#, how would that not "hold any water?" If I hit the C key, the D# key, and the G key on my piano, what comes out? I'm not attacking, just wondering how it doesn't hold water, unless you talking about it not holding "spelling" water. Then I don't care EOD, DJS

right on man, let's try to take some of the attitude out of this, me and you, fair?

here's why:

when your making dance tracks playing some notes in and making them sound good without any background is not only valid but impressive. but if you're in the high end recording world and you're a producer you know what key a song is in.

from a more traditional standpoint all the classical music, jazz music, and even something like rock band tab books or even band geek books are made with the grand staff, and the same connective music theory that makes playing the music universally translatable.

so if you're in your studio and you play in some c minors, no one knows or cares if you read that note as D# or Eb. my arguement "holds no water" itself. and you would be correct, but alone.

however, from a compositional standpoint, you could not give sheet music to anyone of something you had written without proper understanding of the key you wrote it in. c minor is a three flat minor scale that goes C D Eb F G Ab Bb (C). the cleft would have three flat symbols written on the E A and B places. any session musician, composer, or arranger would be able to use what you gave them.

it's funny watching this argument over right way and wrong way. TBH it doesn't really matter much as prob 90% of those that make electronic music think a key is what opens a door. So to go to the point of #/b (or should that be b/# ) is a bit extreme. It may be correct, but it prob doesn't matter to most. As long as you play the right buttons - oops - keys.

To Ch. Sfr: how long have you been teaching?

I have a question for you channel surfer or anyone else!

Technically, can you ever play a wrong note if you stay in the right scale?

Let's say for example Tiesto - Lethal Industry. The melody starts off going aaca,aaea,aaea... IMO that doesn't make musical sense! On a demo for the waldorf pulse vengeance soundset they've rearranged the notes to be aaca,aada,aaaa... IMO making sense this time! I can't listen to the original because it bugs me so I'm gonna do a remix for myself.

Heres the soundset demo! Melodie's @ 48secs.

So if you haven't heard Lethal Industry before I'll post a sample but you should know what I'm getting at; he's hitting notes in the scale but it doesn't sound good. Therefore, doesn't that render theory pointless? - Question, not statement

Here's the original sample!

From a theory standpoint based on the book I'm reading, you can go out of scale if you want. Those are called diminished or augmented. It is generally a good idea to stay in your scale, but like anything, there are exceptions to the rule.

Now, for chords, staying in scale is blown out of the water for things like seventh chords, etc. Many of those extended notes are played out of key - on purpose.

'Music Theory' is just that - a theory. It's not called 'Music Law' for a reason. One of the definitions of theory is 'an unproved assumption'.

Take care,
Adam

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